The Dark Knight An article on BOF by yours truly...

hey i read that earlier at first...nice article.
 
brag much!?!?!?! huh!?!?! you like to brag!?!?!?
































:D
 
Good stuff there, how long have you been a journalist?
 
Yeah I saw that earlier, good stuff:up:
 
Great article, ultimatefan! :up:
There's only a minor thing (psychological nitpick;) ), when you said: "Psychotic people are defined by psychology as those who have no empathy, remorse or compassion for other people."
Actually, this is referring to the psychopath (psychopathy).
The psychotic (schizophrenic) is characterized by hallucinations, thought disorders, etc.
 
batmaluco said:
Great article, ultimatefan! :up:
There's only a minor thing (psychological nitpick;) ), when you said: "Psychotic people are defined by psychology as those who have no empathy, remorse or compassion for other people."
Actually, this is referring to the psychopath (psychopathy).
The psychotic (schizophrenic) is characterized by hallucinations, thought disorders, etc.
Actually, yeah, I should have written psychopathic people.
 
well thought and very well written..

what else should i expect from you dude.

:)
 
Very good, and I agree with all your conclusions. I myself prefer a more well-rounded more human Batman who can be obsessive, grumpy, stubborn, but at the same time compassionate and basically a decent human being who genuinely cares about the downtrodden masses he fights for. As Alfred explained once, he no longer does what he does out of revenge, but out of compassion, to keep others from having to experience tragedy like he did.
 
Congrats! And thanks for the good read :)
 
I would have enjoyed it more if Jett got rid of that friggin' CONGRATULATIONS!! Ad. But to ultimatefan: Good Job!
 
Everyone knows who batman is already though.

He's not a psycho, though we know bale could easily play him that way.

but he's also not spider-man. Never was and never will be. He's a much darker, more serious character. He's A product of the corrupt world he was born into that took away his parents and now he's sworn to fight that injustice no matter the cost. He's not insane, but he is always on the edge. the only ones keeping him from going crazy "getting lost in that monster you created" are Alfred, Gordon, and Robin. Anyone who knows batman knows this, I think. It's not really too evident in begins since that's just batman's start, but it's there with that quote.

I think this is explored in many batman stories, even movies.

And he is an ass hole. But he's our ass hole.
 
Wesyeed said:
Everyone knows who batman is already though.

He's not a psycho, though we know bale could easily play him that way.

but he's also not spider-man. Never was and never will be. He's a much darker, more serious character. He's A product of the corrupt world he was born into that took away his parents and now he's sworn to fight that injustice no matter the cost. He's not insane, but he is always on the edge. the only ones keeping him from going crazy "getting lost in that monster you created" are Alfred, Gordon, and Robin. Anyone who knows batman knows this, I think. It's not really too evident in begins since that's just batman's start, but it's there with that quote.

I think this is explored in many batman stories, even movies.

And he is an ass hole. But he's our ass hole.
He CAN be an a-hole sometimes, when he takes his mission too far, it´s just that sometimes writers only seem to see him that way. And I agree that characters like Alfred and Gordon help to keep his darker instincts grounded.

And thanks again for the compliments, folks. They mean a lot.
 
ROBOCOP CPU001 said:
well thought and very well written..

what else should i expect from you dude.

:)
Hehehe, thanks!:woot: :up:
 
Great read indeed Ultimatefan :) (and i agree with each of your points )

:yay: :up:
 
Nice article. Not to keen on that title but I understand the concept.

Interesting perspective on why the so called "A-Hole" Batman does seem to fit in today's comics as opposed to the more Frank Miller/Alan Moore/Grant Morrisson darker grittier Batman did some 20 years ago.

Comics have indeed become the "mainstream" and is very much accepted by non comicbook readers in whatever medium they may presented in be it comics, graphics novels or movies.

However I like to give you a counterpoint on why Batman and it's current editors have seen to make a collective effort to revert him back to a more "lighter knight" as I call him, than his darker days of the mid- 80s and 90s.

And ironically, my perspective has to do with the way comics are made today in style ans substance.

I used to get in lengthy debate on DC messageboards when one of it's editor/writer MArk Waid said in an interview that Batman was broken and is now a D**k! That's it was nobody fault and everybodys fault, and that he needs to be fixed.

This seem to be the prevailing attitude with most editors over at DC on the current status of Batman and they conclude after the 'infinite crisis' and '52' projects Batman would be revert back to a more "Family friendly" Batman who isn't a pyhsco, revengeful and withdrawn.

However I think the reason they decide to make the change in Batman personality is not because he was "broke" but becasue they realized the state of the current comic-book reader and trying to appeased their attitude.

Basically comics are now "dumbdowned" to reflect the attitude of their readers.

While the current comicbook reader is much older than the past and their status as a medum in society is more respective as a whole, the storylines of comics, in their regular continuity anyway, are not as thought out today as in the past plotwise and especially dialouge wise.

This is why today's comic arcs, that would in the past have taken 2 to 3 issues to complete is strecth out over 8 issues (but it's also easier to make the story into a Trade Paper Back which is the backbone of comic sales today) and the one that are lengthy an d complex (Dark Phoneix saga, death of Captian Marvel) are either never attempted or reduced to it's simpliest form (House of M, or Infinite Crisis).

And why you rarely if ever have captions that set up the story and not just the Thoughts of the characters (there used to be thought balloons for that, what ever happen to those?) and most comics are two page spreads to fill in the pages.

Saga such as 'The Dark Phoneix saga and 'Crisis on infinite Earths' are things of the past

So what does this have to do with the way Batman is presented today in comics and movies?

Batman being one of DC's biggest sellers has to be present toady as a more "human"or "compassionate" and less depressed, schizophrenic, or psychotic because it is easier for today's readers to follow and is in all honesty easier for the creators to write.

If you make Batman a one dimensional character it's easier to write for than a two (or even three) dimensional one.

As you mentioned, Batman/Bruce Wayne is already a complex character but you throw in a touch of depression, schizophrenic, or psychotic and you really have to do your research.

Your stories can't be simply the hero stops the villian and completed in a single issue nor will they always have some happy ending.

It's like writing for Sherlock Holmes. A master detective par non that had a opium addiction. Which they did attempt to do for Batman in the original "Venom" storyline.

If you think about the most complex and intriguing Batman stories in the past 20 years (DKR,Year One, the Killing Joker, Arkhamn Asylum) the issues are never fully resolved and you question Batman's sanity as much as the villians he stops.

Which leads us to 'Batman Begins'.

Chris Nolan/David Goyler did their research of the Batman of the past 20 years more popular stories (the Dark Knight Years if you want to call it that), with a touch of early 70s Denny O Neil/Neal Adams characters, and made perhaps the most compelling and intelligent depiction of Batman than most comics ever attempted).

However, to say he didn't hint and at times outright show, that Batman isn't missing a few screws in his head, and is not or psychotic, then you didn't see the main point of the movie or the main point of Batman existence.

He's fights his own damage psychoisis and used them to prey upon those who would hurt others, and not necessarily for the betterment of society, but to feed his own burning anger and revenge.

Batman is psycotic. He is angry. And he is schizo. Most people who live double lives are, However, he channels all that negativity for revenge into something that as a results benefits society as a whole.

If Bruce Wayne was truly compasionate and truly didn't have mental problems and truly wanted to help society than he wouldn't act outside of societys laws.... he would have become a cop.

But becaus he has been severly affected by the death of his parents to where "all sense left his life" (Year One) than he dress up as the things that fear him (bats) and walk the thin line of vigilante/ Hero, a covers his actions in a double life, then he is Psychotic.

"Anyone who dresses up as a bat certainly has issues."

Exactly.
 
Darknightnomis said:
Nice article. Not to keen on that title but I understand the concept.

Interesting perspective on why the so called "A-Hole" Batman does seem to fit in today's comics as opposed to the more Frank Miller/Alan Moore/Grant Morrisson darker grittier Batman did some 20 years ago.

Comics have indeed become the "mainstream" and is very much accepted by non comicbook readers in whatever medium they may presented in be it comics, graphics novels or movies.

However I like to give you a counterpoint on why Batman and it's current editors have seen to make a collective effort to revert him back to a more "lighter knight" as I call him, than his darker days of the mid- 80s and 90s.

And ironically, my perspective has to do with the way comics are made today in style ans substance.

I used to get in lengthy debate on DC messageboards when one of it's editor/writer MArk Waid said in an interview that Batman was broken and is now a D**k! That's it was nobody fault and everybodys fault, and that he needs to be fixed.

This seem to be the prevailing attitude with most editors over at DC on the current status of Batman and they conclude after the 'infinite crisis' and '52' projects Batman would be revert back to a more "Family friendly" Batman who isn't a pyhsco, revengeful and withdrawn.

However I think the reason they decide to make the change in Batman personality is not because he was "broke" but becasue they realized the state of the current comic-book reader and trying to appeased their attitude.

Basically comics are now "dumbdowned" to reflect the attitude of their readers.

While the current comicbook reader is much older than the past and their status as a medum in society is more respective as a whole, the storylines of comics, in their regular continuity anyway, are not as thought out today as in the past plotwise and especially dialouge wise.

This is why today's comic arcs, that would in the past have taken 2 to 3 issues to complete is strecth out over 8 issues (but it's also easier to make the story into a Trade Paper Back which is the backbone of comic sales today) and the one that are lengthy an d complex (Dark Phoneix saga, death of Captian Marvel) are either never attempted or reduced to it's simpliest form (House of M, or Infinite Crisis).

And why you rarely if ever have captions that set up the story and not just the Thoughts of the characters (there used to be thought balloons for that, what ever happen to those?) and most comics are two page spreads to fill in the pages.

Saga such as 'The Dark Phoneix saga and 'Crisis on infinite Earths' are things of the past

So what does this have to do with the way Batman is presented today in comics and movies?

Batman being one of DC's biggest sellers has to be present toady as a more "human"or "compassionate" and less depressed, schizophrenic, or psychotic because it is easier for today's readers to follow and is in all honesty easier for the creators to write.

If you make Batman a one dimensional character it's easier to write for than a two (or even three) dimensional one.

As you mentioned, Batman/Bruce Wayne is already a complex character but you throw in a touch of depression, schizophrenic, or psychotic and you really have to do your research.

Your stories can't be simply the hero stops the villian and completed in a single issue nor will they always have some happy ending.

It's like writing for Sherlock Holmes. A master detective par non that had a opium addiction. Which they did attempt to do for Batman in the original "Venom" storyline.

If you think about the most complex and intriguing Batman stories in the past 20 years (DKR,Year One, the Killing Joker, Arkhamn Asylum) the issues are never fully resolved and you question Batman's sanity as much as the villians he stops.

Which leads us to 'Batman Begins'.

Chris Nolan/David Goyler did their research of the Batman of the past 20 years more popular stories (the Dark Knight Years if you want to call it that), with a touch of early 70s Denny O Neil/Neal Adams characters, and made perhaps the most compelling and intelligent depiction of Batman than most comics ever attempted).

However, to say he didn't hint and at times outright show, that Batman isn't missing a few screws in his head, and is not or psychotic, then you didn't see the main point of the movie or the main point of Batman existence.

He's fights his own damage psychoisis and used them to prey upon those who would hurt others, and not necessarily for the betterment of society, but to feed his own burning anger and revenge.

Batman is psycotic. He is angry. And he is schizo. Most people who live double lives are, However, he channels all that negativity for revenge into something that as a results benefits society as a whole.

If Bruce Wayne was truly compasionate and truly didn't have mental problems and truly wanted to help society than he wouldn't act outside of societys laws.... he would have become a cop.

But becaus he has been severly affected by the death of his parents to where "all sense left his life" (Year One) than he dress up as the things that fear him (bats) and walk the thin line of vigilante/ Hero, a covers his actions in a double life, then he is Psychotic.

"Anyone who dresses up as a bat certainly has issues."

Exactly.
You seem to be somewhat missing the point of my article. I NEVER said Batman doesn´t have issues, and I NEVER said he doesn´t have those darker aspects. I wouldn´t want a happy-go-lucky Batman to appease "less smart" readers anymore than any other red-blooded Batman fan.

Making the character the borderline psycho that some writers portray doesn´t necessarily makes him more complex. A completely stoic and unlikable jerk is just as one-dimensional as a goody good hero.

The point of my article is that THE CONTRAST of the character´s human side and better intentions with his darker instincts make him a more interesting and complex character.

Again, get your definitions right. Psychotic people are schizophrenic, they hear voices in their heads, see things that aren´t there, can´t control themselves, etc. Bruce Wayne has neither of these things. Psychopaths are devoid of compassion or empathy, which Bruce Wayne clearly isn´t, in spite of his aggressive impulses. If you think Bruce is fighting ONLY to feed his own dark feelings and has no honest intention to help Gotham, you miss the point of Begins too.

And no, he wouldn´t necessarily become a cop. Year One and Begins do a great job at showing that official law enforcement in Gotham is rotten and being a good cop like Gordon isn´t enough. The city is bent, it needs a symbol. It needs someone who can do something on the outside.

In the end, Begins proves that Batman can be a popular character being dark, and also more human.
 
It was good.

Except you said multi-faced. Batman only has one face! :D
 

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