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The Dark Knight An article on BOF by yours truly...

ultimatefan said:
You seem to be somewhat missing the point of my article. I NEVER said Batman doesn´t have issues, and I NEVER said he doesn´t have those darker aspects. I wouldn´t want a happy-go-lucky Batman to appease "less smart" readers anymore than any other red-blooded Batman fan.

Making the character the borderline psycho that some writers portray doesn´t necessarily makes him more complex. A completely stoic and unlikable jerk is just as one-dimensional as a goody good hero.

The point of my article is that THE CONTRAST of the character´s human side and better intentions with his darker instincts make him a more interesting and complex character.

Again, get your definitions right. Psychotic people are schizophrenic, they hear voices in their heads, see things that aren´t there, can´t control themselves, etc. Bruce Wayne has neither of these things. Psychopaths are devoid of compassion or empathy, which Bruce Wayne clearly isn´t, in spite of his aggressive impulses. If you think Bruce is fighting ONLY to feed his own dark feelings and has no honest intention to help Gotham, you miss the point of Begins too.

And no, he wouldn´t necessarily become a cop. Year One and Begins do a great job at showing that official law enforcement in Gotham is rotten and being a good cop like Gordon isn´t enough. The city is bent, it needs a symbol. It needs someone who can do something on the outside.

In the end, Begins proves that Batman can be a popular character being dark, and also more human.


Oh, I got your point, and the point of your article, I was presenting a counterpoint.

In the end it comes down to our personal perception of Batman/Bruce Wayne and why he does the things he do.
 
Darknightnomis said:
Oh, I got your point, and the point of your article, I was presenting a counterpoint.

In the end it comes down to our personal perception of Batman/Bruce Wayne and why he does the things he do.
Fair enough.
 
ultimatefan said:
Jett post an article I wrote on http://www.batman-on-film.com/opinion_awinckt_atakeonaholebatman.html. I think it relates to the new Batman movie series in the sense of the way Nolan has chosen to portray Batman and his effort to combine the darkness of the character with a more human and relatable approach. Hope you find it interesting - and forgive the typos...

Did I ever tell you that you absolutely NAIL everything related to bats? If I didn't, I'll say it now...:up:
 
This actually inspired me to write an article on an issue I've wanted to talk about. It will be SHH! Board exclusive of course. With me being, you know, anti-BOF and all. Plus the members over there would bicker and moan about it anyway.

"Has Realism Sucked the Fun out of Batman?"
 
dude, sucked and Batman should never be in the same sentence!


d'oh! :(
 
ultimatefan said:
Jett post an article I wrote on http://www.batman-on-film.com/opinion_awinckt_atakeonaholebatman.html. I think it relates to the new Batman movie series in the sense of the way Nolan has chosen to portray Batman and his effort to combine the darkness of the character with a more human and relatable approach. Hope you find it interesting - and forgive the typos...

Dude... I was all set to read some narrow-minded view of Batman that I was going to violently disagree with and then come here and type up a rebuttal.

Happily, I do not have to. I agree with everything you said.

No more crazy Bat-men, please. :up:
 
Darknightnomis said:
Nice article. Not to keen on that title but I understand the concept.

Interesting perspective on why the so called "A-Hole" Batman does seem to fit in today's comics as opposed to the more Frank Miller/Alan Moore/Grant Morrisson darker grittier Batman did some 20 years ago.

Comics have indeed become the "mainstream" and is very much accepted by non comicbook readers in whatever medium they may presented in be it comics, graphics novels or movies.

However I like to give you a counterpoint on why Batman and it's current editors have seen to make a collective effort to revert him back to a more "lighter knight" as I call him, than his darker days of the mid- 80s and 90s.

And ironically, my perspective has to do with the way comics are made today in style ans substance.

I used to get in lengthy debate on DC messageboards when one of it's editor/writer MArk Waid said in an interview that Batman was broken and is now a D**k! That's it was nobody fault and everybodys fault, and that he needs to be fixed.

This seem to be the prevailing attitude with most editors over at DC on the current status of Batman and they conclude after the 'infinite crisis' and '52' projects Batman would be revert back to a more "Family friendly" Batman who isn't a pyhsco, revengeful and withdrawn.

However I think the reason they decide to make the change in Batman personality is not because he was "broke" but becasue they realized the state of the current comic-book reader and trying to appeased their attitude.

Basically comics are now "dumbdowned" to reflect the attitude of their readers.

While the current comicbook reader is much older than the past and their status as a medum in society is more respective as a whole, the storylines of comics, in their regular continuity anyway, are not as thought out today as in the past plotwise and especially dialouge wise.

This is why today's comic arcs, that would in the past have taken 2 to 3 issues to complete is strecth out over 8 issues (but it's also easier to make the story into a Trade Paper Back which is the backbone of comic sales today) and the one that are lengthy an d complex (Dark Phoneix saga, death of Captian Marvel) are either never attempted or reduced to it's simpliest form (House of M, or Infinite Crisis).

And why you rarely if ever have captions that set up the story and not just the Thoughts of the characters (there used to be thought balloons for that, what ever happen to those?) and most comics are two page spreads to fill in the pages.

Saga such as 'The Dark Phoneix saga and 'Crisis on infinite Earths' are things of the past

So what does this have to do with the way Batman is presented today in comics and movies?

Batman being one of DC's biggest sellers has to be present toady as a more "human"or "compassionate" and less depressed, schizophrenic, or psychotic because it is easier for today's readers to follow and is in all honesty easier for the creators to write.

If you make Batman a one dimensional character it's easier to write for than a two (or even three) dimensional one.

As you mentioned, Batman/Bruce Wayne is already a complex character but you throw in a touch of depression, schizophrenic, or psychotic and you really have to do your research.

Your stories can't be simply the hero stops the villian and completed in a single issue nor will they always have some happy ending.

It's like writing for Sherlock Holmes. A master detective par non that had a opium addiction. Which they did attempt to do for Batman in the original "Venom" storyline.

If you think about the most complex and intriguing Batman stories in the past 20 years (DKR,Year One, the Killing Joker, Arkhamn Asylum) the issues are never fully resolved and you question Batman's sanity as much as the villians he stops.

Which leads us to 'Batman Begins'.

Chris Nolan/David Goyler did their research of the Batman of the past 20 years more popular stories (the Dark Knight Years if you want to call it that), with a touch of early 70s Denny O Neil/Neal Adams characters, and made perhaps the most compelling and intelligent depiction of Batman than most comics ever attempted).

However, to say he didn't hint and at times outright show, that Batman isn't missing a few screws in his head, and is not or psychotic, then you didn't see the main point of the movie or the main point of Batman existence.

He's fights his own damage psychoisis and used them to prey upon those who would hurt others, and not necessarily for the betterment of society, but to feed his own burning anger and revenge.

Batman is psycotic. He is angry. And he is schizo. Most people who live double lives are, However, he channels all that negativity for revenge into something that as a results benefits society as a whole.

If Bruce Wayne was truly compasionate and truly didn't have mental problems and truly wanted to help society than he wouldn't act outside of societys laws.... he would have become a cop.

But becaus he has been severly affected by the death of his parents to where "all sense left his life" (Year One) than he dress up as the things that fear him (bats) and walk the thin line of vigilante/ Hero, a covers his actions in a double life, then he is Psychotic.

"Anyone who dresses up as a bat certainly has issues."

Exactly.

:batty:oot.
 
Ultimatefan, I am so crushing over you right now. :whatever: :oldrazz:
 
Alonsovich said:
Did I ever tell you that you absolutely NAIL everything related to bats? If I didn't, I'll say it now...:up:
Oh yeah, you´d know it...:woot: :up: If you guys liked the article, keep tuned... There´s something pretty cool cooking up for the future...
 
ultimatefan said:

Are you crazy!? Don't give out your email like that. it's dangerous.
If that is your real email...

Hmmm...
How dare you give me a fake email.

I am so over you.
 
LadyVader said:
Are you crazy!? Don't give out your email like that. it's dangerous.
If that is your real email...

Hmmm...
How dare you give me a fake email.

I am so over you.
Hehehe... It´s my actual e-mail, but I´m pretty careful about opening e-mails (I can PM you a code subject so I know the e-mail is yours:cwink: )...
 
Batman is psycotic. He is angry. And he is schizo. Most people who live double lives are, However, he channels all that negativity for revenge into something that as a results benefits society as a whole.
Darknightnomis

Just wanted to say a few things. I agree with some of what you said. However, I don't see Batman as being a Schizo. I have seen people like that, who have Schizophrenia. There are many types of that disorder. I have seen someone (yes, actually seen them) with Paranoid Schizophrenia. I don't see Batman having Schizoied type behavior. I guess you could argue that he is a bit Psychotic, but if you really think about it, Batman's head is on pretty straight. I mean, sure, he saw his parents get murdered as a kid, and that probably messed with his head big time. However, Batman doesn't go around fighting crime for no reason. There is a "method to his madness" so to speak. He wants to help clean up the city that is over run with crime, and he can do that better by being Batman. There are no restrictions on how far he can go to get the job done (except killing). So, I can see what some other's have said about Batman not being Psychotic. I think it is easy to say that he is, but when you stop and think about what he does, he is bringing justice to the city of Gotham, just in a different way.
 
HalloweenRes said:
Batman is psycotic. He is angry. And he is schizo. Most people who live double lives are, However, he channels all that negativity for revenge into something that as a results benefits society as a whole.
Darknightnomis

Just wanted to say a few things. I agree with some of what you said. However, I don't see Batman as being a Schizo. I have seen people like that, who have Schizophrenia. There are many types of that disorder. I have seen someone (yes, actually seen them) with Paranoid Schizophrenia. I don't see Batman having Schizoied type behavior. I guess you could argue that he is a bit Psychotic, but if you really think about it, Batman's head is on pretty straight. I mean, sure, he saw his parents get murdered as a kid, and that probably messed with his head big time. However, Batman doesn't go around fighting crime for no reason. There is a "method to his madness" so to speak. He wants to help clean up the city that is over run with crime, and he can do that better by being Batman. There are no restrictions on how far he can go to get the job done (except killing). So, I can see what some other's have said about Batman not being Psychotic. I think it is easy to say that he is, but when you stop and think about what he does, he is bringing justice to the city of Gotham, just in a different way.
Yeah, if you think about it, in spite of the whole "dress up like a bat" thing, what Bruce does is very admirable in many ways. I wince when people say, "he should just get over the death of his parents". Let me tell you, people never completely get over something like that. This ex-girlfriend of mine lost her father when she was getting into her twenties, it was natural causes, seven years ago, and she became chronically depressive and still has dreams with it and such. I saw an interview with Gene Hackman, who was abandoned by his father when he was a kid, sixty-five years ago, and it STILL made him emotional. Bruce could have easily become a REAL psycho, or a drug addict, or a REAL depressed person, as in never gets out of bed, or even committed suicide. Instead, he gets those dark and negative feelings and tries to do something positive. Tries to help a bent city to get back on its feet. Yes, his level of dedication is unhealthy. Yes, he´s not a truly happy person, for the tragedy still haunts him. Still, don´t tell me there´s nothing truly heroic in what he does.
 
ultimatefan said:
Yeah, if you think about it, in spite of the whole "dress up like a bat" thing, what Bruce does is very admirable in many ways. I wince when people say, "he should just get over the death of his parents". Let me tell you, people never completely get over something like that. This ex-girlfriend of mine lost her father when she was getting into her twenties, it was natural causes, seven years ago, and she became chronically depressive and still has dreams with it and such. I saw an interview with Gene Hackman, who was abandoned by his father when he was a kid, sixty-five years ago, and it STILL made him emotional. Bruce could have easily become a REAL psycho, or a drug addict, or a REAL depressed person, as in never gets out of bed, or even committed suicide. Instead, he gets those dark and negative feelings and tries to do something positive. Tries to help a bent city to get back on its feet. Yes, his level of dedication is unhealthy. Yes, he´s not a truly happy person, for the tragedy still haunts him. Still, don´t tell me there´s nothing truly heroic in what he does.

But we can't rule or minimize that he does DRESSES UP AS A BAT. That should be a first clue that he's not altogether there.

Or as the Joker once said when he figure out that something tramatizing most have happen to Batman as a child because "He dresses up in a halloween costume like a child would." (Batman/Punisher II)

Please don't get me wrong in my assessment about Batman. I think that's what makes Batman most intriguing as a character. I think that what makes him the greatest hero of them all.

He channels all his personal negativety in a way that benifits society.

He's not from another planet. He wasn't born with his powers. He wasn't bitten by some radioactivie kangeroo or something. He achieved it own his on skill, drive and determination.

However, the events that caused him to be so focus his life course to become the Batman, is the same thing that drive that makes him to be a psyscho.

He couldn't control the events that happen to his parents as a child and now he tries to control the forces that made him into Batman. Stoping criminals who prey on the innocent.

Admirable.Yes. Heroic. Definately. Physcotic. ABSOLUTELY.

"Show me a taragedy and I'll show you a hero" - F. Scott Fitzgerald
 
Darknightnomis said:
But we can't rule or minimize that he does DRESSES UP AS A BAT. That should be a first clue that he's not altogether there.

Or as the Joker once said when he figure out that something tramatizing most have happen to Batman as a child because "He dresses up in a halloween costume like a child would." (Batman/Punisher II)

Please don't get me wrong in my assessment about Batman. I think that's what makes Batman most intriguing as a character. I think that what makes him the greatest hero of them all.

He channels all his personal negativety in a way that benifits society.

He's not from another planet. He wasn't born with his powers. He wasn't bitten by some radioactivie kangeroo or something. He achieved it own his on skill, drive and determination.

However, the events that caused him to be so focus his life course to become the Batman, is the same thing that drive that makes him to be a psyscho.

He couldn't control the events that happen to his parents as a child and now he tries to control the forces that made him into Batman. Stoping criminals who prey on the innocent.

Admirable.Yes. Heroic. Definately. Physcotic. ABSOLUTELY.

"Show me a taragedy and I'll show you a hero" - F. Scott Fitzgerald
Drive to do something, even when taken to certain extremes, isn´t defined as a psychosis. His level of dedication is definitely unhealthy in many aspects, though, could be considered a bit of an addiction, maybe.
 
ultimatefan said:
Drive to do something, even when taken to certain extremes, isn´t defined as a psychosis. His level of dedication is definitely unhealthy in many aspects, though, could be considered a bit of an addiction, maybe.

Yeah, well said. To me, if Bruce wasn't Batman, he'd probably be an alcoholic or something. When you brood over something and don't let go of it, it can drive you to try and find an escape, in a bottle or a syringe or wherever. Bruce turned that inability to let go into something productive... he focused his negative energy - grief, rage, guilt, etc. - to a positive purpose. Protecting the innocent, trying to rehabilitate the wicked.

And we'd be lying if we said the violent aspect of what he does wasn't a release valve for him.
 
Its also a form of self-destruction just like (though arguably more dangerous) drug abuse.


batman7289 said:
brag much
c'mon the thread is only 2 pages...reading is gud. :p
 
7Hells said:
Its also a form of self-destruction just like (though arguably more dangerous) drug abuse.

It can certainly be seen that way, yeah. I'm of two minds on that one. I mean yes, certainly he puts himself at risk on a nightly basis, and he does get battered around a bit. In "Batman Forever" they certainly made much of the self-punishment angle. In the comics I don't recall seeing that so explicitly until after Jason Todd got himself blown up. That was when Batman started becoming more of a dick, and he started getting beat up more. And Tim Drake, when he arrived on the scene, had a theory about that, about how Batman needed Robin to give him someone to live for, someone to be a guide and mentor for.

There is certainly a valid argument that there is penance or flagellation involved in what he does. The thing is that it can also be read as an entirely selfless act: that he selflessly puts himself in harm's way in order to protect others -- in the way a Policeman, Firefighter, Soldier, Sailor, or Marine might do.

If we believe he's punishing himself, does it take away from the selfless heroism of what he does? I dunno, it's just a question I felt the need to pose.

Of course as others have said, one of the reasons so many people love Batman is that he can be interpreted in so many different ways. He's just complex enough to inspire this type of discussion, while being just simple enough to leave us loads and loads of room for supposition.

I guess that's how a guy in a scalloped cape with his underwear over his tights remains so popular for 68 years. :up:

c'mon the thread is only 2 pages...reading is gud. :p

Indeed, reading is good, and apparently it impresses the ladies. :hyper:

Who knew?
 
I concur on your take and that of Jett too. Its confessy time that I did give up the comics long ago and even stopped watching the cartoons and any Batman home videos.

Im just collecting the toys and focusing on TDK. I dont even like Warner Bros. to go beyond part 3. My main concern is for Batman to go out on top form.
 

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