The Force Awakens Andy Serkis as Supreme Leader Snoke - Part 1

[DarthSkywalker]

Same kind of scar, different location. Why I am hoping Luke gave Snoke his in a similar manner.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The whole emphasis of the opera scene with Palpatine is that the great Darth Plagueis the Wise, who was obsessed with immortality and who possibly created life through the Force (Anakin), could ironically not cheat death and that Palpatine killed him. It is a scene about the greatness of the ultimate villain, Palpatine, that he was able to betray and kill his wonderful master who had such great powers. The scene loses all meaning if Palpatine was unsuccessful. It also ruins one of the well-written scenes in the prequels. That is why Darth and I are so fed up with the Plagueis theories. Saying that he survived or came back nerfs the big bad of the OT to establish a new villain. It is bad story telling and a retcon. It's a cheap device out of Dragonball Z or western comics to establish the credibility of a new villain by implying that he is greater and more powerful than past villains.

The implication from the MSW rumours and the TFA novelization is that Snoke is a new character whose significance and power is already known to Luke and Leia, that he somehow wormed himself close to the heroes in the years after the Empire's fall and corrupted Ben before his duplicity was discovered.

However, I think Darth is jumping to conclusions to think that the Snoke we have seen is the character's actual appearance. As danoyse has said, there is some really strong Wizard of Oz imagery going on. I also don't think that Snoke is a Sith in any way shape or form. It's obvious that he has cultivated Kylo's obsession with his grandfather. Wouldn't it serve his goals to be open with Kylo about being a Sith and recruit him as his Sith apprentice? Why hide his Sith nature then? The idea of the Knights of Ren and Kylo not being a Sith doesn't make a lot of sense then.

I think Kylo not being a Sith might have to do with his training not being finished. Perhaps at the end of VIII he will be a Sith.

If they going for a fake look, why would he let himself look so feeble? Also, wouldn't the Solos and Skywalker know what he looks like?

 

[DKDetective]

I think Kylo not being a Sith might have to do with his training not being finished. Perhaps at the end of VIII he will be a Sith.

If they going for a fake look, why would he let himself look so feeble? Also, wouldn't the Solos and Skywalker know what he looks like?

Maz's dialogue seems to suggest that the Sith are gone for good and that the First Order (and Snoke by extension) is a new evil. I would think she knows about such things.

I agree that Snoke's injured appearance is a problem with the Wizard of Oz theory, but the imagery is very strong nevertheless. We will have to see how it plays out. I don't know what to think of Andy's comments that Snoke is "ancient" and such. The art book makes clear that J.J. did not want Snoke to be old and feeble and a copy of the Emperor (I believe it states that he only approved the design when they made Snoke look younger).

 

[BatLobster]

@DKDetective

The thing that concerns me about Snoke being a brand new character is I feel it also might undermine Palpatine, just in a different way. Because if Episodes VII-IX are going to serve as the new, true climax to the saga then theoretically you need to raise the threat level somehow. So if Snoke somehow ends up being more of a threat than Palpatine, then I still feel like you're diminishing him and it feels tacked on. If he's less powerful than Palpatine, then he just seems like a poor follow-up villain. No matter how you slice it it's tough to follow The Emperor. And either way, Snoke's very existence begs the question of what the hell he was up to during the PT and OT. Why does want power now? What was he waiting for? What does he want? As long as those questions are answered satisfactorily in a way that feels like it builds on what's come before somehow, I am cool with whatever they do.

Personally I don't think Palpatine being wrong about having killed his master diminishes him too much. Driving him into hiding for 60 years (perhaps in the Beyond?), while he ruled the galaxy with an iron fist is nothing to sneeze at. We know overconfidence is his weakness, as Luke points out in Jedi. Just look how smug and self-satisfied he is when he tells the story. In the novel (I know it's not canon), the great part about the way the final scene plays out is you get the sense that there's still a small seed of doubt in Palpatine's mind, like he's been deceived somehow, even after he's killed him. That is the best part of the whole thing. It's very creepy and unsettling.

I do get why some people are turned off by the idea and find it too fan-fic-y or whatever. But I dunno, to me the ST is almost like fan fic to begin with, in that it literally is being crafted by fans and for all intents and purposes the saga reached a logical conclusion in ROTJ. I don't think trying to tie things together via a retcon is beyond this series...it's happened many times before.

 

[writer0327]

Maz's dialogue seems to suggest that the Sith are gone for good and that the First Order (and Snoke by extension) is a new evil. I would think she knows about such things.

I agree that Snoke's injured appearance is a problem with the Wizard of Oz theory, but the imagery is very strong nevertheless. We will have to see how it plays out. I don't know what to think of Andy's comments that Snoke is "ancient" and such. The art book makes clear that J.J. did not want Snoke to be old and feeble and a copy of the Emperor (I believe it states that he only approved the design when they made Snoke look younger).

Although he might not look older than dirt, I like Snoke as an ancient evil presence that has been watching and waiting, perhaps predating the Sith.

 

[Marvolo]

The Visual Dictionary talks about Kylo being the archetype for the dark side users that have replaced the extinct Sith. I don't have the actual quote atm. I'd rather Rian and Colin run with that than turning Kylo and the Knights of Ren into just another bunch of Sith. Let the Sith rest. Try something new.

 

[BatLobster]

If they do that, I just need them to differentiate them philosophically. Otherwise it's just Sith with a different Also, we have to remember that JJ outright stated that Kylo isn't a Sith but wouldn't say the same for Snoke.

Also interesting about Snoke is he seems to be just as interested in Kylo having the light side, and sees him as the perfect balance of light and dark. I do think it's possible that Snoke is someone who was once a Sith and has long renounced that 'religion' and is building a new one in its place.

 

[jaqua99]

If they do that, I just need them to differentiate them philosophically. Otherwise it's just Sith with a different Also, we have to remember that JJ outright stated that Kylo isn't a Sith but wouldn't say the same for Snoke.

Also interesting about Snoke is he seems to be just as interested in Kylo having the light side, and sees him as the perfect balance of light and dark. I do think it's possible that Snoke is someone who was once a Sith and has long renounced that 'religion' and is building a new one in its place.

To me, the Jedi and the sith have always been THE light sided user and dark side user. It's what I've come to get used to. I've always felt there was something so intriguing about the sith. That exchange between Luke and Palpatine signifies so much. That IS Star Wars and Palpatine's delivered it incredibly.

"You've failed your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."-Luke.
"So be it...Jedi"-Emperor *attacks*

Eliminating the sith entirely and replacing them with a totally new brand of dark side force users (That, at the moment, don't seem to different from Sith) to be the enemy of the Jedi feels less effective. The Jedi already have a foil in Star Wars and it's always gonna be the Sith. I do believe that Snoke, at one point, was either a Sith, affiliated with the Sith, or knew the ways of the Sith at one point. The Sith, were a governing body at one point. The empire was the emit governing body of evil, referred to by Maz (also controlled by the Sith), then there is the first order which "rose from the ashes of the empire". An empire controlled by THE lord of the Sith. I don't think the Sith will make a comeback, but I do think that the essence of the Sith ways will be relevant through Snoke

 

[MaceB]

I see it as more of an elaboration. A lot of outsiders could easily say that they don't see the difference between the Sikh and the Sunni tribes, but to them, it's huge. Having several denominations of the dark and the light adds a whole bunch of new possibilities, and for me, the chance at seeing something new... but the same.... is exciting.
I have no problem with Snoke being a Sith, who creates his own new religion, as it were. Seems unique, and it's an opportunity to right some wrongs that were done in the PT.
It does seem strange to me though that a new master was able to pop up so quickly. It seems likely that they'll delve in to Snoke's involvement with the emperor and the OT. I mean, if Kylo needs guidance, then I imagine Snoke would too, and where'd he get his?

 

[Sithborg]

To me, the Jedi and the sith have always been THE light sided user and dark side user. It's what I've come to get used to. I've always felt there was something so intriguing about the sith. That exchange between Luke and Palpatine signifies so much. That IS Star Wars and Palpatine's delivered it incredibly.

"You've failed your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."-Luke.
"So be it...Jedi"-Emperor *attacks*

Eliminating the sith entirely and replacing them with a totally new brand of dark side force users (That, at the moment, don't seem to different from Sith) to be the enemy of the Jedi feels less effective. The Jedi already have a foil in Star Wars and it's always gonna be the Sith. I do believe that Snoke, at one point, was either a Sith, affiliated with the Sith, or knew the ways of the Sith at one point. The Sith, were a governing body at one point. The empire was the emit governing body of evil, referred to by Maz (also controlled by the Sith), then there is the first order which "rose from the ashes of the empire". An empire controlled by THE lord of the Sith. I don't think the Sith will make a comeback, but I do think that the essence of the Sith ways will be relevant through Snoke

Yeah, that is a trap that the old EU fell into just before the reboot. Constantly redoing the Sith is BORING.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Since they acknowledged this isn't sith or even the empire Imagine the first order will be the new title for give this new idea even if it ends up similar to the empire or the sith

I don't think the idea of the sith will be forgotten about.

 

[Drizzle]

That scar which Rey gave to Kylo with the last saberkick is a little bit similar to that one Snoke has... Can it be that Snoke is a hologram of Kylo Ren in future?

[YT]LQCU36pkH7c[/YT]

 

[Marvolo]

Yeah, that is a trap that the old EU fell into just before the reboot. Constantly redoing the Sith is BORING.

They dont seem to be redoing the Sith. They seem to be creating a different philosophy.

The Force and its role is treated like philosophy and religion by those eho know of it an/or wield it. One thing thats become apparent to me is that Lucas modeled the Force and Jedi on a number of Buddhist ideas. Buddhism has all sorts of thoughts and paths and ways of doing things. Depending on where you live or study at you might here different things.

We know that the Sith were a schism from the Jedi when one or more broke off from the Jedi and developed the Sith doctrine. And now we know that there is a Church of the Force, and there are non force users that live their lives by the Sith code. And now Kylo has his own philosophy and his Knights. And Snoke is a big question mark, but hJJ didnt give him sith eyes whoch could point to him being more or different than a sith.

On earth we have countless philosophies about god and gods and spirituality. Imagine how many different philosophies would arise in an entire galaxy about the Force. We are talking trillions of beings and countless cultures so it at lwast makes sense that other philosophies would develop.

 

[Doctor Jones]

What if Del Toro is playing Kylo's master in which Snoke assigns them to eachother? When he says "It's time to complete his training" it could mean Snoke himself training him or maybe something we don't know yet. Even though Kylo has obliterated the last of the light in him, he still is undisciplined, so you need a disciplined warrior to finesse him. Or he's one of the Knights of Ren that was thought to be dead or something.

 

[Marvolo]

I just hope whoever Del Toro is playing that he brings the sort of cold intensity that he exhibited in Sicario. That film has me so pumped to see what Benecio does in Episode 8.

 

[uirate]

And now Kylo has his own philosophy and his Knights. And Snoke is a big question mark, but hJJ didnt give him sith eyes whoch could point to him being more or different than a sith.

The VD confirms the Sith are no more, along with Pablo saying that Snoke isn't a sith on his twitter.

Star Wars NEEDED to move away from the Sith, atleast in this new trilogy. We all need a break from it. I fully expect them to come back in a future future trilogy or when they inevitably do the trilogy revolving around the rise and fall of the Sith.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The thing about there being no more Sith, this just makes Kylo and Snoke similar to Vader and the Emperor in the OT. Remember, Vader is basically a Dark Jedi, as Tarkin hints at, as does the Emperor's word on what a lightsaber is. The Jedi were the only organized Force users in the OT. The Dark Side was simply the Dark Side. Now we have Sith, Dark Side witches, and probably others I am forgetting to go along with the Jedi. We have people like Ahsoka who has no association.

This idea fits with Kylo being the only member of the Knights of Ren to use a lightsaber. They could all be Dark Siders, but only Kylo has an association with a lightsaber because of Vader. They seem to want to return to the classic OT idea of what a Force User is. That makes me rather happy.

 

[Closerframe]

I just hope whoever Del Toro is playing that he brings the sort of cold intensity that he exhibited in Sicario. That film has me so pumped to see what Benecio does in Episode 8.

I have no doubt Rian will utilize Benecio's talents, but I'm concerned with what form his character will take. I'm hoping he'll be more than just a high ranking member of the First Order (we already have Hux), and the notion that he's a member of the Knights of Ren who possibly test Ren would be an awesome dynamic--especially with how he and Blunt played off of each other in a similar fashion in Sicario. I'd like him to be a intense dark side user who doesn't believe in compassion or sheer anger, but one who sees Ren as a spoiled entitled brat who doesn't deserve the Master of the Knights of Ren title.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Personally I think Snoke used to be a Sith but once The Emporer was defeated he felt it was sort of a failed religion and decided to tweak it to make his own. One he can manipulate to his own advantage and seduce people like Kylo with.

I am curious about BDT in the sequel though, as I thought Kylo Ren and Snoke would be the villains again.

 

[Marvolo]

What if Snoke was a rival of Palpatine's back when Palpatine was Plagueis's apprentice. Even with the Rule of Two, some Sith Masters would train more than one apprentice without letting them know about each other. So maybe Plagueis had more than one apprentice and at some point Palpatine and Snoke crossed paths and Palpatine brutally wounded Snoke in the fight.

Or perhaps Snoke wasn't Plagueis's apprentice but knew him or Palpatine in some other way.


I don't really care whether Snoke is connected to Plaguies. I could take it or leave it,but I do think it'd be neat if Snoke was someone from Palpatine knew.

 

[BatLobster]

What if Snoke was a rival of Palpatine's back when Palpatine was Plagueis's apprentice. Even with the Rule of Two, some Sith Masters would train more than one apprentice without letting them know about each other. So maybe Plagueis had more than one apprentice and at some point Palpatine and Snoke crossed paths and Palpatine brutally wounded Snoke in the fight.

Or perhaps Snoke wasn't Plagueis's apprentice but knew him or Palpatine in some other way.


I don't really care whether Snoke is connected to Plaguies. I could take it or leave it,but I do think it'd be neat if Snoke was someone from Palpatine knew.

Not a bad thought, though I think if you're gonna go this route it's probably a bit cleaner simply to make him Plagueis.

I agree that some connection to Palpatine would be nice. He just loomed so heavily over the previous films that I feel there'd be a big disconnect in the saga if his legacy wasn't touched on somehow. At the very least I'd like to know what Snoke and Kylo think of him. Snoke seems to blame the entire downfall of the Empire on Vader's "sentiment". So does this mean he thinks Palpatine was in fact a good ruler and simply wants to continue what he started? Is Snoke just a Palpatine fanboy like Kylo is a Vader fanboy? I hope there's more to it, I really don't want him to just be Palpatine 2.0. They did a great job making Kylo is own character, so now they really need to differentiate Snoke somehow.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What if Snoke was a rival of Palpatine's back when Palpatine was Plagueis's apprentice. Even with the Rule of Two, some Sith Masters would train more than one apprentice without letting them know about each other. So maybe Plagueis had more than one apprentice and at some point Palpatine and Snoke crossed paths and Palpatine brutally wounded Snoke in the fight.

Or perhaps Snoke wasn't Plagueis's apprentice but knew him or Palpatine in some other way.


I don't really care whether Snoke is connected to Plaguies. I could take it or leave it,but I do think it'd be neat if Snoke was someone from Palpatine knew.

We still have all that uncharted space stuff.

 

[JOE]

I bet you Luke gave Snoke some of those scars. Can't wait to see flashbacks of a young Ben Solo being trained by Luke, and seduced by Snoke.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

New theory about Snoke's identity. I don't believe this to be true for a number of reasons, but it is interesting.


http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Star-Wars-Theory-Makes-Strong-Case-Snoke-True-Identity-106197.html

 

[Wise]

New theory about Snoke's identity. I don't believe this to be true for a number of reasons, but it is interesting.


http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Star-Wars-Theory-Makes-Strong-Case-Snoke-True-Identity-106197.html

All these clickbait theories assume that he's a character we've met before.

Can he simply not be a new interesting character without having to rely on preexisting characters?

That was what I hated about Jango Fett. There's only one cool type of Bounty Hunter in the entire universe. Everyone has to be connected. Boba Fett was better when they left him alone to his few words and mysterious badass presence. Fleshing out his character and making him seem more badass than he was just makes his death in Jedi seem even more ridiculous.