Arkham Asylum: The Thread for Debating the Insane Topic of Batman Realism

[Mani-Man]

The vast majority of the GA still see Batman as this hokey adventure tale, I'm sure

Eh i dont think so.
Nolans Batman i think did a lot to steer the GA perception towards a more serious idea.

But there is no doubt that Batman is something for All age groups.
You got pretty dark stuff but also things like the brave and the Bold etc for kids.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I said what I said.

You're coming off as both elitist and close-minded.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The vast majority of the GA still see Batman as this hokey adventure tale, I'm sure.

Karens (hate using such an overused term but still) still see Batman as the cartoonish Schumacher version and I'm not sure anyone can tell me different.

Just like with the MCU, they think the character and his world are cool fun, they can go watch with their kids and parents. It's why superhero flicks make the money they do. If you all thing a bunch of kids aren't going to go see The Batman, you must think The Batman series is ending after flick one. Because they ain't making money that way.

This is no different then James Bond. Which even with it's mature themes, is family entertainment. They have to be. They cost too much to make not to be.

 

[Eddie Dean]

Is Batman for babies or adults the greatest thread in superhero hype history now closed by mods

 

[BMW 224]

Just like with the MCU, they think the character and his world are cool fun, they can go watch with their kids and parents. It's why superhero flicks make the money they do. If you all thing a bunch of kids aren't going to go see The Batman, you must think The Batman series is ending after flick one. Because they ain't making money that way.

This is no different then James Bond. Which even with it's mature themes, is family entertainment. They have to be. They cost too much to make not to be.

Nothing says for kids and family entertainment than serial killer targeting the corrupt and a unstable vigilante trying to stop them sounds like a nice wholesome film /s

 

[DarthSkywalker]

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So your way of proving your point, was to prove these are the things we believe kids could and can still engage with? Good to know. Unless you think Detective Comics was for mature audiences.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Just like with the MCU, they think the character and his world are cool fun, they can go watch with their kids and parents. It's why superhero flicks make the money they do. If you all thing a bunch of kids aren't going to go see The Batman, you must think The Batman series is ending after flick one. Because they ain't making money that way.

This is no different then James Bond. Which even with it's mature themes, is family entertainment. They have to be. They cost too much to make not to be.

That's a good point but I'd rather The Batman remain an almost antithesis to the bright, jokey MCU. We already get like, 4 or 5 of those kinds of superhero movies a year now.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Batman always has been something for all ages via different interpretations.

Period.

 

[BMW 224]

It's ironic to me that the people saying "Batman is about gut who dresses up like a bat it's ridiculous and for kid's stop pretending it's anything something more" sound more ashamed and insecure about Batman character and history than the ones that they claim are.


Batman is both campy and dark.

Fantastical and realistic.

It depends on the take and his history reflects that.

It's clear that The Batman take is realsim and noir.

The protagnist wearing bat ears and calling himself Batman doesn't change that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Nothing says for kids and family entertainment than serial killer targeting the corrupt and a unstable vigilante trying to stop them sounds like a nice wholesome film /s

Nothing says family entertainment then a fascist government which rules through mass murder. And yet, the literal plot of Star Wars.

Oh, how about this. A war profiteer decides to stop weapons manufacturing after he sees the horrors his weapons have caused. Baby entertainment, Iron Man.

 

[Mindreaper21]

So your way of proving your point, was to prove these are the things we believe kids could and can still engage with? Good to know. Unless you think Detective Comics was for mature audiences.

I’m not here to have an argument with you, but it seems to me that you like to cherry pick stories that target children to try and prove your point. There is just as much adult content as there is content for children, but Batman is not a story that target children specifically.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It's ironic to me that the people saying "Batman is about gut who dresses up like a bat it's ridiculous and for kid's stop pretending it's anything something more" sound more ashamed and insecure about Batman character and history than the ones that they claim are.

I love Batman. But I'm also self-aware of what I love. If you went to a studio right now and pitched the idea of Gopher Man, a dude who dresses up like Gopher but is a super serious crime fighter, no one would be claiming it isn't fantasy.

This is all fantasy. Even stuff like Death Wish, are adult fantasy. Wish fulfillment for some rather unsettling people. That doesn't mean you can't have profound storytelling, great performance and make excellent comics, books or movies. But they ain't out here selling action figures or spending over 300m to produce and market a Batman film, they aren't intending for everyone to watch.

 

[BMW 224]

Nothing says family entertainment then a fascist government which rules through mass murder. And yet, the literal plot of Star Wars.

Oh, how about this. A war profiteer decides to stop weapons manufacturing after he sees the horrors his weapons have caused. Baby entertainment, Iron Man.

Tone and execution matter your know.

Any story we see in movie's is pretty ****ed up on paper

But of the intent is to be geaed for all ages than it's gonna.

The Batman tone and execution are gearing towards adults and teenager's.

It's not that hard to see.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I’m not here to have an argument with you, but it seems to me that you like to cherry pick stories that target children to try and prove your point. There is just as much adult content as there is content for children, but Batman is not a story that target children specifically.

The basis of Batman is targeted at kids. It's why his name is Batman and he fights crime on the streets, with his bare hands.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Tone and execution matter your know.

Any story we see is pretty ****ed up when thinking about that.

But of the intent is to be geaed for all ages than it's gonna.

The Batman tone and execution are gearing towards adults and teenager's.

It's not that hard to see lol.

Teenagers are children, dude.Who are the action figures intended for?

Also why did you bring up tone only later? What kind of tone do you think dressing up in a costume strikes?

 

[C Prometheus]

Is Batman for babies or adults the greatest thread in superhero hype history now closed by mods

I reeeeeeeaaaaaalllllllllllyyyyyy hate that this is what the argument is morphing into.

Batman always has been something for all ages via different interpretations.

Period.

My personal favorite Batman film is one of the most fantastical entries in the series. Ironically it's also one of the least suited films to show to a young kid and is itself a reasonable question mark on the whole idea that this mythos is and must always be exclusively "family entertainment."

Or would you show your two year old kid a film where Danny DeVito nearly bites off a guy's nose and rambles on about filling women's voids, then later tries to slaughter all the firstborns in Gotham City and then devolve that scheme into "Let's kill EVERYONE"?

Because that's what Batman Returns is. I'd wait a few years before showing a kid that film, despite how much I love it. It's not realistic at all and yes, it's certainly just as goofy and ridiculous as it is bleak and horrifying. But a "For All Ages Family Entertainment" film it is not.

That's why we have a wide variety of different types of adaptations of Batman. Some crowds are better suited for Batman Returns. Others the Nolan films or Batman 89. Other groups still are suited for Batman Forever, Batman: The Animated Series and other DCAU properties. And then there's the brilliant group that is "Big Drinking Party with Friends" that best appreciates Batman & Robin.

At the end of the day, the fact is that Batman is adaptable to all sorts of different venues and age groups for any given circumstance. Primarily, yes, he is a "For All Ages" character- but that's not always the case, as demonstrated with Batman Returns. And we'd be here all day if we went into the wide spanning different approaches that exist in the comics.

 

[BMW 224]

I love Batman. But I'm also self-aware of what I love. If you went to a studio right now and pitched the idea of Gopher Man, a dude who dresses up like Gopher but is a super serious crime fighter, no one would be claiming it isn't fantasy.

This is all fantasy. Even stuff like Death Wish, are adult fantasy. Wish fulfillment for some rather unsettling people. That doesn't mean you can't have profound storytelling, great performance and make excellent comics, books or movies. But they ain't out here selling action figures or spending over 300m to produce and market a Batman film, they aren't intending for everyone to watch.

Of course it's wish fulemennt.

That's all entertainment.

But that doesn't mean it isn't realastic or noir.

Or campy and wholesome.

Or fantastical and Sci Fi.

Matt Reeves take on Batman slides into realistic noir side.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

I’m reminded of a quote by CS Lewis: “Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

 

[DarthSkywalker]

My personal favorite Batman film is one of the most fantastical entries in the series. Ironically it's also one of the least suited films to show to a young kid and is itself a reasonable question mark on the whole idea that this mythos is and must always be exclusively "family entertainment."

Or would you show your two year old kid a film where Danny DeVito nearly bites off a guy's nose and rambles on about filling women's voids, then later tries to slaughter all the firstborns in Gotham City and then devolve that scheme into "Let's kill EVERYONE"?

Because that's what Batman Returns is. I'd wait a few years before showing a kid that film, despite how much I love it. It's not realistic at all and yes, it's certainly just as goofy and ridiculous as it is bleak and horrifying. But a "For All Ages Family Entertainment" film it is not.

That's why we have a wide variety of different types of adaptations of Batman. Some crowds are better suited for Batman Returns. Others the Nolan films or Batman 89. Other groups still are suited for Batman Forever, Batman: The Animated Series and other DCAU properties. And then there's the brilliant group that is "Big Drinking Party with Friends" that best appreciates Batman & Robin.

At the end of the day, the fact is that Batman is adaptable to all sorts of different venues and age groups for any given circumstance. Primarily, yes, he is a "For All Ages" character- but that's not always the case, as demonstrated with Batman Returns. And we'd be here all day if we went into the wide spanning different approaches that exist in the comics.

I know it's hard to fathom for a lot of people, but that was kid's entertainment in 1992. I know, because I went and saw it in theaters when I was wee little one. You know what else was entertainment for the whole family? Robocop, T2 and the Predator. I know because me and the other kids in the neighborhood all watched them and had the toys. Never forget how horrorifc the ending of that 4 quadrant classic known as Raiders of the Lost Ark is, or how legit horrifying the premise and story of Beetlejuice is. The film that includes a grown man trying to marry a child.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

It's ironic to me that the people saying "Batman is about gut who dresses up like a bat it's ridiculous and for kid's stop pretending it's anything something more" sound more ashamed and insecure about Batman character and history than the ones that they claim are.

Not insecure on my part, at all. I only brought up that kind of point to counteract Shauner's post that minimized Harry Potter, Star Wars and the MCU as 'kiddie', because Batman isn't any less 'kiddie' than those properties can be.

It's not insecure to acknowledge that something serious can also sometimes be silly. That's being quite secure, actually.

Batman is both campy and dark.

Fantastical and realistic.

It depends on the take and his history reflects that.

Exactly.

 

[BMW 224]

Teenagers are children, dude.Who are the action figures intended for?

Also why did you bring up tone only later? What kind of tone do you think dressing up in a costume strikes?

Action figures are for anyone.

Kids adults etc.

The Batman itself as a move is aimed for adults.

Dressing up in a costume is accurate to the source material and provides protection.

Do you not want Batman to dress up like a bat ?

You realize who Batman is no ?

The tatcial armored costume fits the noir realistic tone.

 

[C Prometheus]

I’m reminded of a quote by CS Lewis: “Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

I reiterate what I said in my previous post: I reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllllllyyyyyy hate that this thread has quickly devolved in a "Childish or Not" argument, rather than actually pursue a meaningful discussion about the variety of ways there are to adapt the mythos onscreen and utilizing the current situation we're in of having two different continuities of live action Batman films happening in order to have the best of both worlds.

I know it's hard to fathom for a lot of people, but that was kid's entertainment in 1992. I know, because I went and saw it in theaters when I was wee little one. You know what else was entertainment for the whole family? Robocop, T2 and the Predator. I kno,w because me and the other kids in the neighborhood all watched them and had the toys.

McDonald's and Warner Bros circa the second half of 1992 and through the majority of the rest of the 90's would beg to differ with you sir. It was certainly released and marketed as such, but I think the infamous television spot where they interviewed a kid about the film and initiated quite a lot of pearl clutching "Think of the children" reactions speaks for itself.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

My personal favorite Batman film is one of the most fantastical entries in the series. Ironically it's also one of the least suited films to show to a young kid and is itself a reasonable question mark on the whole idea that this mythos is and must always be exclusively "family entertainment."

Or would you show your two year old kid a film where Danny DeVito nearly bites off a guy's nose and rambles on about filling women's voids, then later tries to slaughter all the firstborns in Gotham City and then devolve that scheme into "Let's kill EVERYONE"?

Because that's what Batman Returns is. I'd wait a few years before showing a kid that film, despite how much I love it. It's not realistic at all and yes, it's certainly just as goofy and ridiculous as it is bleak and horrifying. But a "For All Ages Family Entertainment" film it is not.

That's why we have a wide variety of different types of adaptations of Batman. Some crowds are better suited for Batman Returns. Others the Nolan films or Batman 89. Other groups still are suited for Batman Forever, Batman: The Animated Series and other DCAU properties. And then there's the brilliant group that is "Big Drinking Party with Friends" that best appreciates Batman & Robin.

At the end of the day, the fact is that Batman is adaptable to all sorts of different venues and age groups for any given circumstance. Primarily, yes, he is a "For All Ages" character- but that's not always the case, as demonstrated with Batman Returns. And we'd be here all day if we went into the wide spanning different approaches that exist in the comics.

I...can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not?

Because that's why I said 'via different interpretations', which I thought would shield me from being misconstrued.

Saying an IP is for all ages does NOT mean that every interpretation is for all ages.

I wouldn't make the argument that Batman Returns is for all ages nor was I - I'd make the argument that Batman as an IP is.

Because the same year we had Batman Returns, we had Batman: The Animated Series.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I’m reminded of a quote by CS Lewis: “Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

100% relevant quote. Thanks for sharing that!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Action figures are for anyone.

Kids adults etc.

The Batman itself as a move is aimed for adults.

Dressing up in a costume is accurate to the source material and provides protection.

Do you not want Batman to dress up like a bat ?

I'm confused.

The irony of this statement has made this whole thread worth it. Because you just described exactly who the fantasy character known as the Batman is intended for.

The Batman is aimed at adults. Which is why it has a PG-13 rating. Do you expect no kids to go see it?

Yes, the source material. The funny books about the child fantasy character, THE BATMAN.