Arrow Arrow Season 2 Episode 7 "State v. Queen" Discussion Thread

[gohei_]

Kinda anticlimactic on the actual reveal, but by that time, I was too far in the throes of a grin befitting a madman at the return of Malcolm. Barrowman is ****ing awesome!

Best part of the episode. I was wooing in joy when I saw him t:

 

[Donut]

Nice try but she wasn't in the promo at all.

I believe Stephen said on Twitter & Facebook before it aired that this episode was Laurel centric. So that might explain why not a lot watched

 

[mr. peasant]

This is something I've been wanting to ask people for a while: Does anyone feel as if the writers kept realizing all their mistakes as the show progressed? I've had that since Season 1.

I really don't buy a lot of the "plans" the writers claim they had since the beginning. A lot of it feels like them realizing they made mistakes and trying to correct them.

The biggest example by far is the list. Originally they came up with the list to give Oliver a reason to go out at night and take out certain people. However, the list hasn't been the driving factor in the story since episode 11 of season 1 (the one with Diggle's army pal). There hasn't been an episode where the main plot of it was Oliver going after someone on the list since then. Then we had the Undertaking at the finale and it had some plot holes - plot holes that contradicted things set up after the mid-season finale. In a lot of ways, the finale felt a bit like the ending they had in mind before they wrote all the post-mid-season-finale stuff.

Then there is Deadshot. They dropped the whole tattoo thing, gave him more of his comic book look, and made him more and more like comic book Deadshot. It doesn't feel like a character progression though. It feels more like they just changed him for the better. It is a bit of a plot hole continuity-wise, but we don't care because they made him a lot better. Same thing applies to Count Vertigo.

Then there is Thea. She would constantly get in cliché CW arguments with Oliver in the first few episodes. Most of that is dropped not too long after.

Then there was the lack of flashbacks in the Huntress two-parter. We haven't seen an episode that lacks flashbacks since then.

The list goes on and on. My point is that at some point, they realized and thought to themselves "Holy crap, this show is and can be a lot better than we thought it was going to be". This season has already surpassed the last season in set-ups, expanding the DC universe, twists, storytelling, etc.

It's possible. In fact, it's very likely that the writers are at least reevaluating their plans and options, as well as brainstorming for better ideas. Heck, lots of movies do it all the time whilst filming said movie itself; never mind something as drawn out as a television series. This is generally good practice.

As for The List, two things need to be said. Firstly, I think it was a list of co-conspirators for The Undertaking so now that said scheme has come to pass, it's not really important anymore. Secondly, it's main, narrative role - and thus the entire point of its existence - was as a Maguffin device. It served as a catalyst and explanation of why Oliver decided to become a vigilante. Once that was established, it was no longer needed.

 

[regnak]

I believe Stephen said on Twitter & Facebook before it aired that this episode was Laurel centric. So that might explain why not a lot watched

Wrong. here are some facts

The last 4 times Laurel interacted with the Hood/Arrow(and it was shown in the promos)

1.13 Betrayal 2.96 Million viewers

1.20 Home Invasion 3.10 Million viewers


2.02 Identity 3.06 Million viewers

2.03 Broken Dolls 2.89 Million viewers (despite being up against WS game 1)

Before that I haven't seen the promos for these but there was Laurel/Hood interaction

1.04 An Innocent Man 3.05 Million viewers

1.10 Burned 3.06 Million viewers

Compare those to some well regarded eps with no Laurel/Vigilante scenes:

1.23 Sacrifice 2.77 Million viewers

2.05 League of Assassins 2.80 Million viewers

2.04 Crucible 2.37 Million viewers (up against WS game 6)


Laurel has been a plus in the ratings before including 2 of the 3 highest rated eps this season.


ratings from here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_(TV_series)#Episodes

 

[Shikamaru]

^ That's really sad IMO.

 

[kane9321]

^ That's really sad IMO.

its an outrage

 

[regnak]

^ That's really sad IMO.

IMO all of the Laurel/Vigilante eps were at least good. Betrayal is one of my favorite eps. Anyway it shouldn't come as a big surprise. KC has been in a number of other shows(though I haven't watched any of them) and obviously acquired some devoted fans. It is quite logical to conclude that her fans only tune in when she actually gets things to do. From those ratings I would guess there are several hundred thousand of them. That is not a small thing for a show with ratings like Arrow. Of course if the show keeps screwing around with Laurel they may lose some of those people for good.

 

[Nathan]

Which shouldn't be a problem, if the show keeps improving everywhere else and keeps garnering more fans.

 

[regnak]

They haven't been doing that, if you look at the wiki you will see the ratings have been trending down for quite some time.

 

[Rorschach2012]

thats a shame, and really surprising

Do they account for online views? I watch it on the cw website

 

[Demon Hunter]

I never really understood the hate towards the Count. I've always found him quite interesting. Sure, he does make quite the comparison to the Joker, but lately, the Joker has been so commercialized and put on a pedestal that sometimes it even begins to annoy.

I'm really sad to see the Count go, though. Yeah, they've had some weak ideas and moments with him, but I believe it was more duo to bad writing than Seth Gable's inability to portray the character.
Although, on the other hand his death was quite meaningful and entertaining.
He kinda reminded me of the scene in The Dark Knight Returns where the Joker says "It doesn't matter. I've won. I've made you lose control".
That's exactly what the Count did to Arrow and I think that's more than enough for any version of the Count.

Bringing the Count back will be the biggest mistake ever. Bringing any character back will be the biggest mistake ever. I really like this show for its ambition to stay grounded in reality. Dead should stay dead. If I wanna watch meaningless character deaths I will watch Supernatural or The Vampire Diaries. Everybody comes back a thousand times in those shows.

In spite of that, I'm okay with Malcolm returning cause I was really annoyed by his "supposed death".
I don't know if any of you have checked the scene where he dies, but this was like the most ridiculous scene of s1. Arrow literally stabbed himself through the heart (I even had a screenshot of it), then he just stood up, started running, got on a bike and went to save Tommy like nothing happened? And I'm supposed to believe that Malcolm died because of a flesh wound? C'mon...

As for the Lazarus pit, I do hope that they almost never use it, or at least make some very horrible side effect.

Laurel wasn't annoying at all this episode. I even liked her.
She did what she had to do, even though she hated herself for it. She even tried to help Moira. I do hope they finally manage to redeem her character.

As for Felicity/Arrow, that was a sweet scene but as somebody said its charm is going to vanish if they use it more than 1-2 times a season or if they hook up.
For a post finale, I say that I need more Isabel. She's my choice for Arrow because of their incompatibility. I think it will make a fun and dynamic relation and I really enjoy her last episode.

P.S Bring back the Huntress and put her, Sara, Laurel, Isabel, Shado and Felicity in one episode Let Arrow meet his most dangerous foe so far - all the women he's slept with

 

[Nathan]

Bringing the Count back will be the biggest mistake ever. Bringing any character back will be the biggest mistake ever. I really like this show for its ambition to stay grounded in reality. Dead should stay dead. If I wanna watch meaningless character deaths I will watch Supernatural or The Vampire Diaries. Everybody comes back a thousand times in those shows.

Vertigo definitely shouldn't return. Boy was I happy when he got three arrows in his chest, and even fell out the window. But I think they have now a chance to introduce the proper Count. Only problem would be that you can't call him Count Vertigo, but rather have to address him by his real name.

Laurel wasn't annoying at all this episode. I even liked her.
She did what she had to do, even though she hated herself for it. She even tried to help Moira. I do hope they finally manage to redeem her character.

The problem is that she actually didn't have to do it. She had a choice. She could have simply said no. It was already unrealistic that she was the assistant in the case against Moira, knowing of the history she had with the Queen Family. And then getting promoted to lead Prosecutor? Heck, Moira's lawyer already pointed out that she could get her moved off the case, but for whatever reason nothing came of it, because the writers would have lost their drama material. Anyway, she knew that if the succeeded, she'd send Ollie's mom to death row. Death. Row. How can anyone, that calls themselves a friend, actually go through with that?

 

[Loki882]

I never really understood the hate towards the Count. I've always found him quite interesting. Sure, he does make quite the comparison to the Joker, but lately, the Joker has been so commercialized and put on a pedestal that sometimes it even begins to annoy.

I'm really sad to see the Count go, though. Yeah, they've had some weak ideas and moments with him, but I believe it was more duo to bad writing than Seth Gable's inability to portray the character.
Although, on the other hand his death was quite meaningful and entertaining.
He kinda reminded me of the scene in The Dark Knight Returns where the Joker says "It doesn't matter. I've won. I've made you lose control".
That's exactly what the Count did to Arrow and I think that's more than enough for any version of the Count.

Bringing the Count back will be the biggest mistake ever. Bringing any character back will be the biggest mistake ever. I really like this show for its ambition to stay grounded in reality. Dead should stay dead. If I wanna watch meaningless character deaths I will watch Supernatural or The Vampire Diaries. Everybody comes back a thousand times in those shows.

In spite of that, I'm okay with Malcolm returning cause I was really annoyed by his "supposed death".
I don't know if any of you have checked the scene where he dies, but this was like the most ridiculous scene of s1. Arrow literally stabbed himself through the heart (I even had a screenshot of it), then he just stood up, started running, got on a bike and went to save Tommy like nothing happened? And I'm supposed to believe that Malcolm died because of a flesh wound? C'mon...

As for the Lazarus pit, I do hope that they almost never use it, or at least make some very horrible side effect.

Laurel wasn't annoying at all this episode. I even liked her.
She did what she had to do, even though she hated herself for it. She even tried to help Moira. I do hope they finally manage to redeem her character.

As for Felicity/Arrow, that was a sweet scene but as somebody said its charm is going to vanish if they use it more than 1-2 times a season or if they hook up.
For a post finale, I say that I need more Isabel. She's my choice for Arrow because of their incompatibility. I think it will make a fun and dynamic relation and I really enjoy her last episode.

P.S Bring back the Huntress and put her, Sara, Laurel, Isabel, Shado and Felicity in one episode Let Arrow meet his most dangerous foe so far - all the women he's slept with

No, he got stabbed in the CHEST, but not necessarily through the heart.
Do I really need to bring up the Deadshot thing again?

 

[Prison Mike]

The episode was okay but this show is getting dangerously close to soap opera territory.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Blood and Ivo are both involved with HIVE possibly.

That's a good call, I'm sure we'll be learning more about HIVE soon.

Normally I'm of the same opinion in terms of characters dying, but killing off Merlyn was one thing I wasn't happy with at the end of season 1. Don't get me wrong, he went out in a great way, and still "won" in a sense, even though Ollie bested him, but he was such a good villain I really didn't want him offed that quickly. This show is doing a great job of building a world, but it doesn't help if you kill off all the good villains.

Also, since they seem to be going for a more comic book Ras, if Malcom has to do with the Lazarus Pits then I don't mind his resurrection.

Malcolm is a great character no doubt and now that he knows Thea is his daughter it gives him a fresh angle, it just feels like Ollie has already faced and defeated him so a second showdown could be anticlimactic.

 

[king666]

The island stoyline was great as always; the ending was amazing.
Thank god Count Vertigo is gone. Such a boring character.

 

[Savage]

I liked this Vertigo. He was fun to watch. I'm gonna miss him. Though this is a good opportunity to bring in a proper Count Vertigo. A name like that can easily be transferred to somebody else. Legacies might become a big thing on this show (Black Canary, Merlyn, Deathstroke Brother Blood, Team Arrow entirely).

 

[Demon Hunter]

I don't think there is a point of bringing another Count. This one was perfectly fine and served his purpose.
This isn't comics, characters are supposed to die and not return.

@Loki882 - Haha, no. I'm quite sure this is his heart

 

[mr. peasant]

Even if it wasn't his heart (e.g. if he has dextrocardia... unlikely), it would still at the very least puncture his lung; never mind the plethora of huge vessels that would cause someone to bleed out in minutes if nicked running through the chest.

 

[Ryder]

I dislike this version of Count vertigo, I would rather he didnt come back ever.

 

[Savage]

I don't think there is a point of bringing another Count. This one was perfectly fine and served his purpose.
This isn't comics, characters are supposed to die and not return.

[/IMG]

Tell that to Merlyn.

Spoiler

Or Loki for that matter...Or Bucky. Wow. Death isn't even sacred in movies and tv.

Besides, there's no reason why a new version of Count Vertigo shouldn't show up either. Especially if it's a different character with a different power set that uses the same name. I'm not saying this one should return from the dead (though that seems to be going around anyway).

 

[mr. peasant]

Tell that to Merlyn.

Spoiler

Or Loki for that matter...Or Bucky. Wow. Death isn't even sacred in movies and tv.

Besides, there's no reason why a new version of Count Vertigo shouldn't show up either. Especially if it's a different character with a different power set that uses the same name. I'm not saying this one should return from the dead (though that seems to be going around anyway).

I think that's precisely why people are saying Count Vertigo shouldn't come back. The notion that a separate, unrelated character who then goes by the same name as a previous character is really hokey.

 

[Nathan]

I would be honestly fine if he doesn't go by the same name. I just think the proper Werner Zytle, would be an infinitely more interesting character. I still can't believe that they turned Count Vertigo into a cheesy drug distributor.

 

[DrRocket]

^ I really liked this vertigo and it's a bummer he died

 

[Lencho01]

I found him annoyingly goofy.