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Discussion in 'DC Comics TV' started by famicommander, Jan 28, 2018.
Have DC said that any of those are officially canon to the TV shows?
89 and Returns are pretty much just the one scene. Forever and Batman and Robin are not explicitly referenced but they are mentioned by Marc Guggenheim in one of the post-Crisis talk show episodes as being part of the Arrowverse.
Also, I will try to get an update done sometime this week. I just keep spacing it out.
Massive update. Mostly follows koomy's work as usual but I have some Arrow and Black Lightning episodes placed differently and all the Doom Patrol and Stargirl episodes sort of worked into the order.
I am still considering separating this list into two groups: mainline and supplemental material. The mainline stuff would include every film and TV series where the characters actually interact at some point with the Earth-1/Earth-Prime characters, while the supplemental would include everything that has so far remained self-contained.
The reason I am hesitant to do that is that there may be more substantial crossovers down the line. But the reason it makes sense to do that is it's very difficult to come up with a coherent order when you have entire seasons of self-contained shows stuck into gaps in between seasons of other shows where not that much time has passed.
Always open to suggestions or comments.
I like your order and don't have a problem with the self contained shows being large chunks in between the more tightly connected and dependent shows/episodes. If I were re-watching through the entire multiverse of shows/episodes, I would probably want these breaks from the greater continuity any way. Personally I wouldn't use the "mainline" list that you propose. I would continue to use the greater list that contains everything.
Okay, just read DC's comic tie-in Crisis on Infinite Earths: Paragons Rising. Interesting comment from Berlanti in the intro, saying that he and Guggenheim made the decision very early on that all tie-in comics and novels would be - and are - treated as canon to the TV shows.
They're simply not, though.
The Arrow comics could possibly be considered canon but the Supergirl and Flash tie in comics contradict the main continuity all over the place.
As far as I'm concerned only the Crisis tie-in comics are canon.
Have to confess I haven't read them. There is also a note from Guggenheim, coughing to having messed up continuity more than once.
The entire story arcs of the Flash and Supergirl comics are incompatible with the shows, it's not just a continuity error here or there.
It was just confirmed on DC Fandome that Pattinson's Batman and Phoenix's Joker both exist on separate earths within the multiverse.
They basically said that every DC show and movie exists within the multiverse on different Earths or in different timelines, but it seems counterproductive to include anything in the viewing order that doesn't have a direct crossover or tie-in with the Arrowverse.
I think, Warner will make the DCEU the core of the whole Multiverse Idea, where the Arrowverse is a part like every other series or movie before.
The Flash movie will fully show how Warner will fully embrace the multiverse idea.
Movies and shows dont need to really tie into another to exist in a whole multiverse, but they could whenever warner or a filmaker wants it to.
its not impossible to see a „crisis on infinite earths“ movie on a much bigger scale than the CW version, where some arrowverse charakters cameo in, like many did for the tv version.
so theoretically, we could put in every bit of DC TV/Cinema History in this List. It feels like there doesnt need to be a official confirmation which show or movie is connected to the multiverse or not.
Pretty much this. I'd be surprised if there are ever any direct narrative tie-ins between the movies and the Arrowverse, but for me Miller's appearance in Crisis and (especially) their referencing of Keaton's Batman show that it is indeed all one big multiverse, regardless of whether they ever come out and say as much.
Some people still don't get the multiverse concept. I've seen people insisting that the Arrowverse is not IN the multiverse but that it IS the multiverse because of the Crisis crossovers. I thought this chart someone made on Reddit provides a really good clarification. Obviously the nicknames of different universes is subjective, but it's a pretty decent breakdown of how separate universes make up the multiverse. DC has basically told us that everything in the DC universe exists separately but unrelated under one giant multiverse umbrella. Crossovers like Crisis can happen, but each universe still has its own separate canon. Trying to make them all one canon is aspirational but ultimately pointless.
That chart is really interesting! Thanks for sharing
That chart isn't even correct.
Gotham and Pennyworth are not connected.
Wonder Woman is not connected to Batman '66 except through goofy crossover comic books 50+ years after the fact.
The Arrowverse is any show with a direct link to Arrow and its other Earth-Prime shows. Marc Guggenheim himself referred to the multiverse itself as the Arrowverse, and called the Schumaker Batman films part of the Arrowverse.
The fact that the universes these other shows take place in are given numerical designations relative to Earth-Prime shows that they are indeed connected.
Earth-2 in the Arrowverse is not the same as any of the Earth-2s in the comics. In the Arrowverse, Pre-Crisis it was the home of Black Siren and Jesse Quick; post-Crisis it's Stargirl's home but in either case both are part of the Arrowverse.
The multiverse that the Arrowverse occupies is separate from the broader DC multiverse. In the broad DC multiverse, Earth-167 is an Earth where Batman is Clark Kent and Superman is Bruce Wayne. In the Arrowverse, Earth-167 is Smallville.
@famicommander Have you read the Reddit thread that chart is from? It gives some of the creator's reasoning (which he fully admits is largely his own; interesting reading though).
Like I said, some of it is subjective. I didn't make the chart, and I'm not stating it is 100% accurate. But it does illustrate how there are different universes, some loosely connected to each other, but they still exist independently of each other. Every live -action property that DC has put out can be considered part of the larger Multiverse, and potentially even briefly connect, but that doesn't make them canon to each other or all part of Arrowverse canon.
Which is exactly why only the shows and movies that have had an explictly canonical link are included in this order.
The shows themselves write the canon as they go, and canonically, they're connected to the universes we've seen on screen or in the Crisis tie in comics written by Guggenheim.
I ain't going on Reddit. I can't stand the format on that site.
I wasn't critizing this list. The conversation was about the multiverse and how people think the Arrowverse is the greater multiverse that ties everything else together. Fandome suggested that all of these universes can co-exist, and there can be crossovers between the universes, but they are not tied to following or fitting in to each other's canon. That doesn't mean that I don't think trying to connect everything that crossed over with the Arrowverse to one chronological timeline isn't still a worthwhile project.
I didn't imply that you were criticizing the list. But when you say the Arrowverse isn't the multiverse, you're factually incorrect. Stargirl is part of the Arrowverse. Tim Burton's Batman is part of the Arrowverse. Earth-X is part of the Arrowverse.
"Arrowverse" refers to the multiverse all of these shows and films occupy. Sometimes it is used to specifically refer to the mainline Earth-1/Earth-Prime shows but it is also used to refer to the wider setting of all of the shows and films that have crossed over. Marc Guggenheim himself used the term in this way and used it to describe Batman Forever and Batman and Robin. The wider DC multiverse is a separate thing.
Arrowverse is only ONE universe within the larger DC live-action multiverse. Arrowverse is a nickname for the CWuniverse of shows, not the entire DC live-action multiverse. The Arrowverse MAY eventually include Stargirl now that they are on the same network, similar to how they eventually incorporated Supergirl and Black Lightning, but that remains to be seen. Arrowverse is still a separate universe from DCEU, Christopher Reeve's Superman Universe, Smallville, Burton's Batman, etc. The entire DC multiverse doesn't revolve around the Arrowverse just because there was a brief crossover with other separate DC universes. If you don't believe me, ask Jim Lee. They just explained the Multiverse during Fandome. Arrowverse is part of it, just like every other live-action film and movie. They exist at the same time, but in their own universes.
Marc Guggenheim himself referred to the Joel Schumaker films as being part of the Arrowverse.
I get how that could be confusing. He was allowed to borrow from those movies and shows, that's it. He was using Arrowverse as a broader term at the time to encompass which pieces of canon they were including in their Crisis story, including aspects they were borrowing from old films and TV for purposes of fan service. Arrowverse did a story involving elements of the greater multiverse, but the term Arrowverse is still specific to the CWverse universe of shows.
The Multiverse was re-introduced at DC Fandome to pull together all the different DC live-action universes across all networks and film universes. The "Arrowverse" or CW shows are one universe. DCEU is one. Reeve's Batman and the connected TV series is one. The Joker is it's own. Titans is one. Burton's films are one. On 8/22/20 during the multiverse presentation with Jim Lee and Walter Hamada during Fandome, Marc was asked about how shows like Titans and Doom Patrol (that were shown at the end of Crisis) fit into the Arrowverse part of the multiverse going forward. Marc said that Crisis was designed, much like the original comic, to clean everything up so that the Arrowverse was all together on one Earth.
"For the purposes of the CW shows (aka Arrowverse), those shows are now one. But off network is like being off planet, it's a different part of the Multiverse."
Only the CW shows exist within the Arrowverse (which they've been re-branding the CWverse now that Arrow is finished). Everything else is part of the greater multiverse, even if they cross over. Ezra Miller's Flash is not part of the Arrowverse/CWverse, but Ezra's Flash and the Arrowverse both exist within the DC Multiverse.
The upcoming Flash movie is supposed to tie everything together to explain the existence of different universes within the DC multiverse. Meanwhile, Jim Lee is the keeper of the Multiverse, and people like Hamada and Guggenheim have their multiple film and TV universes as part of that.
I think they'll be throwing around the Multiverse a lot again this weekend at part 2 of Fandome.