Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

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Countries should have the right to execute who they want it's not to Americans to get involved in an internal matter. Unless the ask for unbiased assistance that is the only time.

That's the philosophy for foreign planets in Star Trek too.

The prime directive star trek analogy does not apply here. That is a matter of not interfering with uncontacted civilizations. The closest thing we would have to that is uncontacted Amazonian tribes.

Iran is engaged on the world stage and its leaders get to speak at the UN (even if they do cause walkouts) There's a certain point where they are susceptible to human rights laws.

I'm not saying we should get involved, just commenting on your logic in this case.
 
So I saw in another thread that a Christian pastor in Iran is facing death for refusing to recant his views.

This is precisely why the separation of church and state is so absolutely crucial. By no means am I advocating the banning or destruction of religions. Quite the opposite, that we must maintain the individual right to believe, even if we do not agree or respect with the content. Government power must be prevented from showing preference for any particular religion.

The last update I heard was that he wouldn't be executed, but that he is being labeled a traitor.

I'm still trying to figure out why that thread was even closed in the first place.
 
The prime directive star trek analogy does not apply here. That is a matter of not interfering with uncontacted civilizations. The closest thing we would have to that is uncontacted Amazonian tribes.

Iran is engaged on the world stage and its leaders get to speak at the UN (even if they do cause walkouts) There's a certain point where they are susceptible to human rights laws.

I'm not saying we should get involved, just commenting on your logic in this case.

The Prime Directive applies to no interference in the domestic affairs of alien civilizations. Star Fleet can't interfere with the affairs of the Klingon Empire unless asked and they've been in contact for generations for example.

Iran can be held accountable by treaties of human rights applied through the UN, not directly with the United States or another. Let the General Assembly do what they wish, if Iran doesn't want the treaty dissolve it and leave the UN. Although Russia and China need to stand up more and veto more pro-American wars.
 
The Prime Directive deals with contacting/interfering with pre-wrap civilizations. Star Fleet interfered with Klingon affairs all the time.
 
Star Trek is notoriously inconsistent when it comes to the Prime Directive. Lot's of bad writing, and captains acting on their own accord with no oversight.

Considering it's quite common for starships to encounter new civilizations, it's rather odd that most ships don't have some kind of designated delegation of diplomats.
 
Countries should have the right to execute who they want
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I think they should have that right. After all, they are the lawmakers there, and hey, it's gotta suck somewhere.
 
I don't think they should. The problem is it isn't advisable for any other country to try and stop them.
 
While we may view it as barbaric when other countries have stricter laws than us (or laws that are flat out wrong), it is not our place to force them to do as we do. While we can help influence their decisions in trade deals etc, we don't have the right to just start making demands.

The best way is for something like..."American business and American dollars would love to come to your country...lets work together to see if we can make that happen"...and slowly but surely the desire for money will win out. Or we can barge into places like Libya and kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people because we are trying to make life "better" for them.
 
I disagree. There's nothing that says we don't have the right to prevent the deaths of innocent people. Cultural Relativism makes arbitrary distinctions on where the line of intervention is, the way I see it. The only problem is the practicality of such actions. Even a country withholding it's goods isn't so practical depending on what countries we're talking about. The U.S.A can pressure NK to stop developing nukes, for instance, but this will only cause them to sell nuclear technology under the radar. Syria for example.
 
While we may view it as barbaric when other countries have stricter laws than us (or laws that are flat out wrong), it is not our place to force them to do as we do. While we can help influence their decisions in trade deals etc, we don't have the right to just start making demands.

The best way is for something like..."American business and American dollars would love to come to your country...lets work together to see if we can make that happen"...and slowly but surely the desire for money will win out. Or we can barge into places like Libya and kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people because we are trying to make life "better" for them.

You've never heard of Cuba, have you?
 
You've never heard of Cuba, have you?

Yep, would love to be able to jump on a flight straight to there. Besides...I am POSITIVE that the US government has killed more innocent people in the past decade than Cuba...
 
I disagree. There's nothing that says we don't have the right to prevent the deaths of innocent people. Cultural Relativism makes arbitrary distinctions on where the line of intervention is, the way I see it. The only problem is the practicality of such actions. Even a country withholding it's goods isn't so practical depending on what countries we're talking about. The U.S.A can pressure NK to stop developing nukes, for instance, but this will only cause them to sell nuclear technology under the radar. Syria for example.

If we have the right to punish a country with bombs because we disagree with their laws...then they ABSOLUTELY have the right to punish us with bombs if they disagree with our laws.
 
Which they do, but again, it's a foolish move to make.
 
Which they do, but again, it's a foolish move to make.

yeah...my house is my property...and I have the right to my property. Another country destroying my property because they don't like the laws of my government seems to be a violation of my right to my own property...since it destroys my property.
 
The "right" you have to your property is an assumption made by the government you live under, and is completely dependent on the government being correct about that assumption. Outside of that protection, there is no universal truth to you having a right to property at all, and if there were, it would still undermine the implications of Cultural Relativism since it would be a universal truth that no government could deny to anyone.
 
The "right" you have to your property is an assumption made by the government you live under, and is completely dependent on the government being correct about that assumption. Outside of that protection, there is no universal truth to you having a right to property at all, and if there were, it would still undermine the implications of Cultural Relativism since it would be a universal truth that no government could deny to anyone.

So, you call my property rights an assumption by government that may not be correct...but another country's right to bomb my house to smithereens is somehow absolute and correct????

You're just wrong. You can throw out relativism and other nonsense all day...no one has the "right" to destroy my property. They may have the "ability", but they don't have the "right".
 
I didn't say it was correct, at all. They have as much a right to attack as you do to defend, but saying they shouldn't do it out of some sense of entitlement is to assume some sort of objective ethical system. I don't think one can be proven yet, if at all. If you can prove otherwise, that'd be interesting though.
 
I simply reject this notion of not being able to determine what is right and wrong. We CAN. Society is often wrong (slavery) but hopefully we grow and develop better standards. We live in a community, and what is right and wrong is best determined by what the helps the community survive and prosper. I can't prosper if I am killed...so I do others the favor of not killing them. I'd prefer to not be raped...so I don't rape others.

Among the standards we currently have is that a person is a sovereign being. Other nations may view people as subjects to a crown or slaves to a tyrant...and murderous tyrants are helped by folks like you who argue that maybe the tyrant DOES have a right to rape and murder children (I guess you'd argue that a child has the right to defend him/herself from the rape and murder...)...but in our society, we've decided that a person has certain rights which can not be separated from them. When those rights are separated from them, it is not right.

So, no...no person or government has the "right" to destroy my property. It's not "I have the right to defend myself"...the fact that someone is infringing on my rights is where their rights end. My right to swing my hand ends at your face. I would argue that we also do not have the "right" to waltz into Libya and start killing and destroying. Then we have cases like Japan, where their government attacked us...and their violation of our rights left us with no choice but to strike back.
 
Who here is a part of some sort of group that advocates for secular reasoning by going out in public and challenging the mind of the public?
 
I simply reject this notion of not being able to determine what is right and wrong. We CAN. Society is often wrong (slavery) but hopefully we grow and develop better standards. We live in a community, and what is right and wrong is best determined by what the helps the community survive and prosper. I can't prosper if I am killed...so I do others the favor of not killing them. I'd prefer to not be raped...so I don't rape others.

A golden rule approach to things usually isn't what's best for society, or at least this definitely is not always the case. For instance, you say we should do unto others as we would have done to ourselves, yet in a capitalist society, and really most societies, it is necessary to step on some toes to progress your status and possibly the status of the society as a whole; everything's a competition where we're all out to keep others done by raising ourselves up. Nothing can gained that wasn't denied to another, and no one wants to be denied what could help them live a better life.

Perhaps the case is that the golden rule is just an idea standing in the way of the truly powerful and clever meant to progress society. If If Qin Shi Huang had followed such an ethic, would there have been a unified China and their four great inventions for the rest of the world to take advantage of? Would it have been better not to have it? Was Manifest Destiny wrong? Would the world have been better with the natives unharmed by our diseases, swords, and gun powder, and the world been better without an America and all it's innovations?

You could also argue that such an ideal leads the whole society to be victimized if taken to it's logical extreme. Since no one could logically be punished for breaking the rule as no one wants to be punished even if they break the rules.

Among the standards we currently have is that a person is a sovereign being. Other nations may view people as subjects to a crown or slaves to a tyrant...and murderous tyrants are helped by folks like you who argue that maybe the tyrant DOES have a right to rape and murder children (I guess you'd argue that a child has the right to defend him/herself from the rape and murder...)...but in our society, we've decided that a person has certain rights which can not be separated from them. When those rights are separated from them, it is not right.

I don't recall of any tyrant in history who used nihilism as a justification for their carnage. I would expect nihilism to prevent them from justifying anything they do before anything else, and it's usually because they do believe themselves to be objectively moral that they carry out their acts of evil. I doubt King Henry would divorce Queen Catherine so eagerly if not for thoughts that made him think he'd never get a heir due to biblical immorality. Nor would he so soon kill Anne Boleyn for similar fears that he had sinned.

But you've yet to say how those standards are proven to be correct. All you've said is that those are the standards decided by the society, but who's to say the society is right. Another society might say a completely barbaric set of principles is right. Are they wrong? Another society might say that another society is in the way of progress and rob them of their land? Would that be wrong even if the alternative meant stagnation? Is it right for a group of invaders to take someone elses land if the outcome is better for the majority in the long run? Is it also okay for a society to attack another society out of pity for the suffering of it's citizens; don't those people get individual rights as well?

This is part of why I don't believe moral values can be determined. Who's to say what's to be valued as good when one man's moral system is nothing but a hinderance to another man or even society as a whole, and vice versa? It's all really a matter of perspective. Which in this case everyone will merely do what they think is right. Thus everyone is right and has the right to do as they able because everyone is wrong and cannot validate their view of things over the next persons.
 
Although I don't consider myself an atheist, I do believe that this higher movement towards science, logic, and reasoning is a good thing.
 
We can determine what is right by doing exactly what I said.

My survival is important to me. In my opinion, killing me is a bad thing. Therefore, societies that work together for a common good must have a rule against killing. Same with stealing, raping etc.

My standards are proven to be correct because this is all we have to go on. You are using theoretical other worldly possibilities and maybe this and maybe that...but all we can know is what we can know...and as far as we know, society works best when it doesn't kill itself. So, killing each other is wrong. It is self preservation, amplified.

But I get it...you're one of those "there are no absolutes, so we can never make any kind of firm statements" type of people...but while there are no absolutes, we only have what we can know to go on, so living life based on things we cant know is absurd.

For instance, we don't KNOW that we are even really alive. We could all be a computer simulation of life...but we have no way of knowing that, so the reasonable thing would be to live our lives as if we actually exist, not try to sound smart and above it all by suggesting that life could be just a computer simulation that can in no way be proven or altered.
 
An interesting point made by Pen Gilette is that morality that had a benefit of reward and detraction of punishment is not really morality. Morality is following a principal or value because it is the right thing to do, some things are simply innate.
 
Want to win the war on Christmas? Tell Christians the truth that they are going to hell for celebrating pagan winter festival and enjoying greed by giving their children so many gifts. Going to church on Christmas Eve and if it doesn't fall on a day the Sabbath is a sin, so you get the picture.
 
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