Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[enterthemadness]

In the past week or so I've had time to think...well actually past month, so Oct/Nov.

I'm probably not a true Christian or a true Pagan/Neo-Pagan. Yea, in the...past few weeks I've said Jesus Christ is my lord and savior...but I believe in many gods. Allah, Pagan Gods. I love the fact there's ton of religions. I know in the past I've had thoughts like most of these are fake, but it's like I woke up and started thinking for myself. And I have lots of questions still, but I just know in my heart is Christ, but at same time who am I to say there's no Allah or Pagan gods around? I........one could say some Pagan Gods were demons pretending to be Gods, but I honestly can't say for sure. That is one theory. But I honesty believe there's Christian God, Christ, Allah and Pagan Gods around. I just view Pagans as less powerful.

I know in the past I dissed Romney and Huntsman for being Mormon and realize it's wrong. I honestly believe now...I believe in some of their beliefs..some I don't. I guess right now I'm just trying to piece everything together.

I know....I just know it's wrong to go around and say hurtful things about other peoples belief. It's a childish act. Scientology while I'm sure isn't...true in a sense, if it works for some people, then that's great.

 

[DBryan]

I don't think its wrong to say 'hurtful' things, it depends on what's being said. If you mean questioning other beliefs, I don't think that's wrong. I think people need to be challenged on their beliefs. The fact that people are so sensitive about their beliefs being challenged is evidence to me that those beliefs need to be challenged all the more. People demand a blanket respect for their beliefs, no questions asked, and I think that is wrong.

 

[DBryan]

For example, I want to challenge your beliefs.

It's contradictory to believe in the Christian God, and to believe other Gods also exist. That is not what the bible teaches. When you start picking and choosing like that, when you start actually making up your own version, the whole thing falls apart. It's no longer the Christian God that you worship, but one you made up yourself. Actually, that's a reason why there are so many different Christian denominations,

Scientology is a scam. Don't be afraid to call it out for what it is just in case you offend someone. The Church of Scientology cyphons money from its members. They demand more money in order to get to different 'levels' for more information, money to get on their spaceship, always more money with really nothing in return. They tried to hide their beliefs from the public for years. All that stuff about an Emporor alien who ruled over a galactic empire, who trapped the souls of other aliens on Earth, they tried to hide that stuff and the reason we know about it is because it was leaked. The first giant hint that it is all nonsense is the fact that the founder was a science fiction author. Only by challenging their beliefs can the members wake up and free themselves from this weirdo cult that sucks them dry.

I'll give you an example in my own life how people pick and choose what they believe. My older sister sometimes brings up my beliefs as she wants me to come back to the religion. We were raised Catholic. I'm asking her why I should pick one religion over another, why should I pick Catholicism over other religions, and she's saying that Catholicism isn't over other religions... and well, that just isn't true. I'm making the point that under Catholicism, people who are not Christians go to hell. She's denying this. She can deny it all she wants, it doesn't change the dogma of the Catholic church.

A few weeks later, she contacts me and lets me know that she's concerned that she won't see me in the afterlife. This is progress. Now she has to think about what kind of God would send her brother, and billions of other people, to hell. There are over 4 billion people in the world currently who are not Christian, and who knows how many billions throughout history who are not Christian, who are supposed to burn in hell. This is why the God of the bible is evil. As evil and malevolent and selfish as any soul eating cosmic being that HP Lovecraft wrote about.

You can't pick and choose simply because it makes you more comfortable.

It's all or nothing. You believe all of it, or you make up your own beliefs, at which point you cannot legitimately say that you are a Christian. If you believe in more than 1 God, you are not a Christian. And under Christian belief, you will burn in hell.

Think it over.

 

[kaypain]

As far as Christianity goes alot of Churchs teached the wrong things. They put fear and ignorance in their minds. Whereas the church I was raised in taught us one simple thing, salvation. We base our beliefe and entire church on one scripture. Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Theres no ifs or ands. It ends with a period. So we teach in our church based off that concept. We never condemn anyone, judged them and send them to hell, we minister, testify our experinces and what we believe and leave the rest to them. We can't convert or change anyone, we offer only what we know, we accept that many won't accept Christianity. I have no problems with Atheism until it gets to the point where their criticism becomes personal and all the bias, labeling, assuming, flaming, etc... starts.

That's why I don't bother arguing my beliefs with Atheists. To me it's the most pointless debate to date. I tell them what I believe and my opinion, I may be wrong or right, I don't care. My beliefs helped me become a better person. I

put it like this, without Christianity, I never had a purpose in life.It wasn't until I found God that I had a purpose that has and still is keeping me going. Yes I have my questions, who doesn't, not one human or anyother species knows ALL the answers. I thought and pondered about it, came to the conclusion that life is just one huge entrapment. Why I say this is because when you think about it, we as individuals don't have the Choice to be born or not. So in other words, I was born against my will, but then when I say that it contradicts itself because how can I have a will without being born, so I start to think deeper. I'm here, with this unique conscious, this personality,... why? Why am I consciously here in this conformed world where theres nothing but violence, corruption, brain washing, war, whatever... I'm born into a world where really the only Pursuit of Happiness is CAPITALISM, money, wealth. The bible states that we must be not conformed by this world, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind. What does this mean to people? Am I also born into this world consciously to FEAR death? Why I am alive, when the demographic says that I'm dead by 25? What's the purpose of all this? If I had the choice when I was that little tiny sperm swimming my way to that egg to actually stop and think and say wait a minute, do I know what I'm getting myself into?, would I have actually continued. I don't think I would. Call me crazy, but it wouldn't have been worth it to me.

But all of this is implausible because as sperm we don't have a developed brain to make conscious decisions like that. We are pretty much born out of chance, out of millions of other sperm, it all miraculous to me. But never has Science explained to why we have consciouses and are so unique and different. As human we are stubborn, because most just can't accept that there are things outside the box, things that our mind just can't process, we are basically limited to our Brain. And our imaginations, wow. We can imagine anything we set our minds to. This is the wonderful and useful tools for artists, thats why we got all these futuristic movies with these special effects, and these movies with advanc technology, our imaginations allow us to create these images, but in reality, they will most likely never come true.


I know this huge wall of text might be just nonsense, but this is my opinion. Think about it though, Science tells us that we are here by some random chance. The first living thing on Earth was a little tiny cell that over billions and billions of years multiplied and evolved into species and those species evolved and evolved until now we have Humans the ultimate evolved species, the only species on the planet with gift of conscious, the Brain capacity of knowledge. Is this all just one big random act of chance, or is there out that has more meaning to the purpose that we just don't know yet, or maybe can't know.

All in all, none of this crap makes sense so I'm just sticking with something that does. Which is Cristianity, and now I will patiently wait for the smart guy to come and completely destroy everything I just said

Oh well

 

[enterthemadness]

Well, in the bible God says something like "Don't worship other Gods before me." I take that as there are other Gods. I'm just trying to piece together everything, and to me, there's others Gods. I'm not worshiping them...just saying they are out there. If God doesnt like that, even though I've said Christ is my savior, well oh well. Hell doesn't scare me. I honestly see nothing wrong saying other Gods exist. Mormons believe in multiple universes and Gods...that makes sense to me. I honestly don't care if you shred my beliefs...say I'm going to hell...it's my belief. If God wants me to burn in Hell or go rot in Purgatory for these beliefs, well....that's his choice.

 

[redhawk23]

Even things that are a matter of opinion can be argued and supported. I've never seen why opinions are reasons to write off conversations.

 

[bunk]

The church couldn't exist without the concept of salvation. It's the main product they offer. Create a problem everyone can have, and offer the only solution to that problem.

 

[Bat-Mite]

As far as Christianity goes alot of Churchs teached the wrong things. They put fear and ignorance in their minds. Whereas the church I was raised in taught us one simple thing, salvation. We base our beliefe and entire church on one scripture. Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Isn't that what you're advocating here, though? Your main sales pitch is that if you believe _______, you will be "saved." Saved from what? From some terror... whether you define it as death, hell, or my sins, it's something that's going to have awful consequences for me if I don't convert to your religion. In that regard, you really aren't any different from a hellfire and brimstone preacher except for your methods being more subtle and you're taking the "catch more flies with honey" approach. Christianity has always thrived on fear and ignorance and that's why using the fear of hell is always going to be the preferred method of gaining converts, just as a mother might use stories about the Bogeyman to get her child to behave as she wants him to.

But never has Science explained to why we have consciouses and are so unique and different.

There's a field of science that you might benefit from looking into. It's called psychology.

I know this huge wall of text might be just nonsense, but this is my opinion. Think about it though, Science tells us that we are here by some random chance. The first living thing on Earth was a little tiny cell that over billions and billions of years multiplied and evolved into species and those species evolved and evolved until now we have Humans the ultimate evolved species, the only species on the planet with gift of conscious, the Brain capacity of knowledge. Is this all just one big random act of chance, or is there out that has more meaning to the purpose that we just don't know yet, or maybe can't know.

I've never attended any science class or heard any lecture where a professor or biologist says that we're the "ultimate evolved species." That sounds like a line from an X-Men movie. We're the dominant form of life on this planet at the moment, but so were the dinosaurs at one point. That doesn't mean that they were the ultimate evolved species, which would suggest that they stopped evolving. They didn't, and neither have we.

Your statement that we're the only species on the planet with the "gift" of conscience is sadly typical of human arrogance. For one thing, we haven't even encountered every species on the planet. There are probably hundreds of thousands of species in the depths of the ocean that we haven't encountered yet. We even find new terrestrial species quite often, especially in rainforests. On this matter of conscience, though, what is your proof that it is not found in animals? The lion kills the antelope to eat it, and after he has had his fill, he leaves the other antelope alone. He doesn't kill them because he hates them, he only does it out of necessity. Humans on the other hand kill for sport. A human will take the life of a deer just to say he did it and isn't above just leaving the corpse to rot once he's taken the head, or maybe just the antlers, to make a trophy out of. He'll also kill even another human being just because he feels like it, or because there's some perceived imperfection in his brother that rubs him the wrong way. Some months ago, a grown man murdered a toddler because he believed this toddler was gay and thought that that was an abomination. Is that an act of conscience? As Mark Twain put it,

Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion--several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven....The higher animals have no religion. And we are told that they are going to be left out in the Hereafter. I wonder why? It seems questionable taste.

As for "purpose," why does there need to be a purpose? Why is there a need for a storyline? Can't we just try to make our world the best that it can be for one another without it having to fit into some deity's supposed plan? Was there a purpose for the holocaust or the killing fields? Did those events fit into the deity's "plan"?

 

[Godsfireworks]

For us EVERYTHING fits into the "deity's" plan. Now you seem to think that we all have our perfect solutions and answers as to why. the answer to that assumption is no. Sometimes we have no idea why God would let these horrific things happen. Now you might say that our uncertainty reveals how unstable our faith is, but on the contrary, it actually strengthens it, at least that's what we believe. What is your faith if your just blindly following something? There has to be a certain aspect of questioning involved.

 

[Thundercrack85]

That I find mind boggling. Why would you worship a god (assuming you believe one exists) who lets those terrible things happen?

Sounds like an abusive relationship.

 

[Destructus86]

That I find mind boggling. Why would you worship a god (assuming you believe one exists) who lets those terrible things happen?

Sounds like an abusive relationship.

Probably because they are not viewing things from a human's small view of the universe.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Probably because they are not viewing things from a human's small view of the universe.

Is there someone else's view of the universe I am overlooking? Last I checked it was just us humans... and possibly some aliens.

 

[Destructus86]

Isn't that what you're advocating here, though? Your main sales pitch is that if you believe _______, you will be "saved." Saved from what? From some terror... whether you define it as death, hell, or my sins, it's something that's going to have awful consequences for me if I don't convert to your religion. In that regard, you really aren't any different from a hellfire and brimstone preacher except for your methods being more subtle and you're taking the "catch more flies with honey" approach. Christianity has always thrived on fear and ignorance and that's why using the fear of hell is always going to be the preferred method of gaining converts, just as a mother might use stories about the Bogeyman to get her child to behave as she wants him to.

Christianity has never been about fear...at least those who really believe the Bible. It's not about "getting saved so I don't go to hell" Yes, that's a part of it. But it's not the central ideal. It's about making a better life in a relationship with the Creator of the universe. I don't know a single true Christian who believes in God because he or she doesn't want to go to hell...that simply just isn't a thought.

 

[Destructus86]

Is there someone else's view of the universe I am overlooking? Last I checked it was just us humans... and possibly some aliens.

This is why you will never understand. You have to look beyond yourself. Until someone understands that fully...they will never "get" Christianity.

 

[DBryan]

That's pretty vague.

 

[Bat-Mite]

Probably because they are not viewing things from a human's small view of the universe.

It's interesting that we are supposed to excuse even the most heinous of crimes either attributed to God himself, or that occurred because of his negligence, simply because we can't understand his ways. And yet, he does not afford human beings the same luxury. He does not take into account that we are ignorant creatures who can't know everything there is to know about the universe, and therefore have no way of knowing that the Bible is true at all. He does not take into account that other religions, other gods, also have so-called miracles and have just as much reason to justify belief in them (if not more so) as Christianity does. He does not take into account that people have experiences, whether they be pagan, atheist, Hindu, etc., that lead them to believe, with every fiber of their being, that their religious views (or lack thereof) are true. No, it all goes down to "Believe in me, and believe in me in this particular way, or be tormented for eternity." You would think that an all knowing being would not be so ignorant, would himself be capable of compassion and empathy for his creation and, knowing EXACTLY why someone believes the things that they do, would not send them to eternal torment in an egotistical hissyfit.

Christianity has never been about fear...at least those who really believe the Bible. It's not about "getting saved so I don't go to hell" Yes, that's a part of it. But it's not the central ideal. It's about making a better life in a relationship with the Creator of the universe. I don't know a single true Christian who believes in God because he or she doesn't want to go to hell...that simply just isn't a thought.

This is a nice attempt at damage control, but it contradicts the facts. It's not as if kaypain's post focusing on salvation was abnormal. This is par for the course when it comes to advocates of Christianity. I mean, the verse from the Bible that's probably the most quoted is John 3:16.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You HAVE to believe in Jesus to have "eternal life." If you don't, you "perish." What about that isn't fear mongering?

As for this relationship stuff, 8wid linked to this video about that a while back, and I thought it summed up the issue rather well. [YT]b7MkdLYvnlA[/YT]If I believed in the God of Abraham, I would be much more likely to convert to Judaism than Christianity merely on the principle of the matter. I read this little joke a while back about a dialogue between a Jew and a Christian and I thought it was a good comparison of their two approaches to the afterlife:

A minister told his friend Rabbi Goldman, "Last night, I dreamed of the Jewish Heaven. It was a slum, and it was overflowing with people — running, playing, talking, sitting — doing all sorts of things. But the dream, and the noise, was so terrific that I woke up."
The rabbi said, "Really? Last night, I dreamed of the Christian Heaven. It was a nice, proper suburb, with neatly trimmed lawns, and houses all neatly lined up."
"And how did the people behave?" asked the minister.
"What people?"

 

[Godsfireworks]

That I find mind boggling. Why would you worship a god (assuming you believe one exists) who lets those terrible things happen?

Sounds like an abusive relationship.

My birth parent's were Mentally-ill, my mom from birth and my dad from a head injury. According to you why should I worship a God knowing what my parents went through.Because I'm still here, and the whole story of how I came from my birth-parents to the loving christian family I have now utterly convinced me that God is present in my life.

 

[redhawk23]

Christianity has never been about fear...at least those who really believe the Bible. It's not about "getting saved so I don't go to hell" Yes, that's a part of it. But it's not the central ideal. It's about making a better life in a relationship with the Creator of the universe. I don't know a single true Christian who believes in God because he or she doesn't want to go to hell...that simply just isn't a thought.

And yet it is often the argument used when trying to convert others to Christianity. It is also largely the reason why the Crusades occurred. Many fighters, knights and soldiers were offered forgiveness for their sins if the went and fought for the holy land.

 

[redhawk23]

This is why you will never understand. You have to look beyond yourself. Until someone understands that fully...they will never "get" Christianity.

And yet its all about letting Christ be your personal savior, about making a more personal connection with God.

 

[Godsfireworks]

And yet its all about letting Christ be your personal savior, about making a more personal connection with God.

Well, that's part of it. But we believe the greatest commandment is "love your neighbor as yourself." the personal part is good, but that's not why we believe were here.

 

[Sloth7d]

Well, that's part of it. But we believe the greatest commandment is "love your neighbor as yourself." the personal part is good, but that's not why we believe were here.

What scripture from the Bible does your group use to justify this being a greater virtue in Christianity above the rest of the Christian virtues?

 

[DBryan]

My birth parent's were Mentally-ill, my mom from birth and my dad from a head injury. According to you why should I worship a God knowing what my parents went through.Because I'm still here, and the whole story of how I came from my birth-parents to the loving christian family I have now utterly convinced me that God is present in my life.

You're just lucky.

Either that, or you're special. And the starving parentless children, or children of abusive children, are not special and worthy of God's presence.

 

[-Arya-]

My birth parent's were Mentally-ill, my mom from birth and my dad from a head injury. According to you why should I worship a God knowing what my parents went through.Because I'm still here, and the whole story of how I came from my birth-parents to the loving christian family I have now utterly convinced me that God is present in my life.

This seems like a complete non-sequitur. Many other families have faced similar problems without the need to worship or ask assistance from any God. Your personal experiences; however life changing they may be, does not grant credence to the claim that God exists.

 

[kaypain]

Isn't that what you're advocating here, though? Your main sales pitch is that if you believe _______, you will be "saved." Saved from what? From some terror... whether you define it as death, hell, or my sins, it's something that's going to have awful consequences for me if I don't convert to your religion. In that regard, you really aren't any different from a hellfire and brimstone preacher except for your methods being more subtle and you're taking the "catch more flies with honey" approach. Christianity has always thrived on fear and ignorance and that's why using the fear of hell is always going to be the preferred method of gaining converts, just as a mother might use stories about the Bogeyman to get her child to behave as she wants him to. There's a field of science that you might benefit from looking into. It's called psychology. I've never attended any science class or heard any lecture where a professor or biologist says that we're the "ultimate evolved species." That sounds like a line from an X-Men movie. We're the dominant form of life on this planet at the moment, but so were the dinosaurs at one point. That doesn't mean that they were the ultimate evolved species, which would suggest that they stopped evolving. They didn't, and neither have we.

Your statement that we're the only species on the planet with the "gift" of conscience is sadly typical of human arrogance. For one thing, we haven't even encountered every species on the planet. There are probably hundreds of thousands of species in the depths of the ocean that we haven't encountered yet. We even find new terrestrial species quite often, especially in rainforests. On this matter of conscience, though, what is your proof that it is not found in animals? The lion kills the antelope to eat it, and after he has had his fill, he leaves the other antelope alone. He doesn't kill them because he hates them, he only does it out of necessity. Humans on the other hand kill for sport. A human will take the life of a deer just to say he did it and isn't above just leaving the corpse to rot once he's taken the head, or maybe just the antlers, to make a trophy out of. He'll also kill even another human being just because he feels like it, or because there's some perceived imperfection in his brother that rubs him the wrong way. Some months ago, a grown man murdered a toddler because he believed this toddler was gay and thought that that was an abomination. Is that an act of conscience? As Mark Twain put it, As for "purpose," why does there need to be a purpose? Why is there a need for a storyline? Can't we just try to make our world the best that it can be for one another without it having to fit into some deity's supposed plan? Was there a purpose for the holocaust or the killing fields? Did those events fit into the deity's "plan"?

Well it's a proven fact that us Humans are the dominant species on this planet. Our minds have brought us to discoveries and thus we have created so much technology.

" a grown man murdered a toddler because he believed this toddler was gay and thought that that was an abomination. Is that an act of conscience?"

Uh-yeah. He made a conscious choice. The key word is he THOUGHT, that's part of your conscience right? We as Humans have the gifts of choice. Well let me rephrase the word gift, we have the ability!

"Isn't that what you're advocating here, though? Your main sales pitch is that if you believe _______, you will be "saved." Saved from what? From some terror... whether you define it as death, hell, or my sins, it's something that's going to have awful consequences for me if I don't convert to your religion. In that regard, you really aren't any different from a hellfire and brimstone preacher except for your methods being more subtle and you're taking the "catch more flies with honey" approach."

"catch more flies with honey?" ... I just said we don't condemn anyone, we don't go to people and say, hey believe in this or you are going to hell. Our evangelism is simple, we don't spew fear and other bs crap into the minds of people. Our teachings are about renewing our minds, so we can make those conscious choices before we sin. Thats what being saved means to us. Saved from the conformities of this world.

"On this matter of conscience, though, what is your proof that it is not found in animals?"

Wheres the proof that it is? What you described was animal instincts.
There is no other species KNOWN on this planet that has the conscience we humans have. If so, please point it out. Theres no species KNOWN on this planet to have the universal language we humans have, which is yet another part of our conscience.

 

[Destructus86]

I see things not just from a human perspective...but I try to look at the big picture universally as well as from a spiritual perspective.

Pain and suffering are a part of life. I believe they are an important part of it. Through pain and suffering we evolve and learn. What at the moment seems like a horrible event and you can't understand why it would even be allowed to happen will in time become clear. there could be a reason for it or it could just be another opportunity to grow and become more than what you are now.

The big picture is important. If we only see things from a limited mortal human view...we are just shoving our own mind in a tiny box.

That is why to me...the question of "Why does God allow X to happen" is a ridiculous question.

(oh and this is coming from someone who's had to face a lot of real challenges. My dad had cancer once just to name a few)