Avengers the Initiative

[TheCorpulent1]

He was a competent, genuine hero. Osborn's not a fan of those.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Yeah, I could see how/why he'd prefer Prodigy in his place.

 

[Brainiac 8]

I want to know when the actual heroes will start fighting actual villians again. It seems like forever that anyone other than in space was actually good or bad.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Maybe when Cap comes back to put an end to this Dark Reign chapter of Marvel history...after repairing his friendship with Tony. Aw, how cute :heart:

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The New Warriors are gonna be fighting the Evilnitiative.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Avengers Resistance, get it right lol

 

[Reikowolf]

Marvel sure has dug a deep hole; mind you, I like how the events of Civil War and Dark Reign are playing out.

Everything except for the Spider-Man One More Day retcon.

I am just waiting for the moment Tony Stark and Steve Rogers become brothers again.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Avengers Resistance, get it right lol

Yeah, I'm not calling them that. They're the New f***ing Warriors.

 

[Specter313]

He was a competent, genuine hero. Osborn's not a fan of those.

And the fact that he's the kind of person that would likely stand up and question Osborn, as well, he likely didn't have anything that Osborn could hold over his head or use to twist around his views of Osborn like he'd done to the various other heroes in the issue.

 

[Specter313]

Avengers Resistance, get it right lol

Yeah, I'm not calling them that. They're the New f***ing Warriors.

Is it that hard to come up with new/better team names these days?

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Is it that hard to come up with new/better team names these days?

I would have liked "Justice and Friends"

 

[Dread]

Hey now, Gravity being on the Great Lakes Champions is comedy gold. Or, it could be treated seriously. I mean, one superstar among a band of underachievers...didn't they just win the NBA Finals? Weren't they called the Lakers? There is a story there. Nearly every team, even "lame" ones, always has some heavy hitter. Does Squirrel-Girl get jealous that she's no longer it? It could work. Besides, it won't be forever.

I don't mind the changes to The Initiative. Sure, it may seem like "Thunderbolts Lite", but frankly that is probably the fault of overdoing the Thunderbolts all these years. If you had a villain like Norman Osborn in charge of everything, never mind how, this is exactly what would happen. He'd reward all his underworld contacts and cronies to sustain his power, and boot or manipulate all the "white hats" he could. To do otherwise with the Initiative would seem artificial and not capitalize on the shift in the Marvel landscape. This title was always built as being keyed into whatever was happening with Marvel, whether the Initiative or World War Hulk or the Secret Invasion and now this.

Plus, to be fair, the Initiative under Stark was always a tad corrupt and rough to begin with. Sure, the fact that it was compromised by Skrullojacket is a big reason, but Marvel is loathed to admit that they created a story where the mistakes of CIVIL WAR and after were at least partly due to the Skrull infiltration. I mean this was a camp that had an ex-Nazi mad scientist on the payroll. That covered up the death of MVP from the top down. That literally trained superheroes to be nothing but obedient aggressive soldiers who kill as a first and only option, and anyone who didn't fit exactly into that line was verbally belittled or suspected of being a rogue. HYDRA had even infiltrated the group, with a senator as commander and Hardball doing missions for them occasionally. For such a camp to NOT become horribly worse and more corrupt under someone like Osborn would miss the point of the storyline.

The amusing thing is now we have SO many groups vowing "to take down Osborn". Carol Danvers is vowing that in MS. MARVEL. Moon Knight is vowing that in his relaunched title. Spider-Man is vowing that in ASM lately. The Agents of Atlas are operating under that guideline. Now we have the New Warriors/Avengers Resistance vowing that in A:TI. Obviously not a one of them can succeed unless it is in the inevitable "event mini". It might be bemusing if there was a story in which all of these lone wolf maverick heroes/teams all failed to stop Osborn because they literally were getting in each other's way. It's akin to a WWE storyline, where so many wrestlers want to take down one in particular, they compete with each other to do so. The natural solution would be to organize, but Marvel heroes don't do that anymore, at least since "The Bendis Era" of writing them in events happened in 2004-2005.

While I love what Gage is doing with Tigra, it is for that reason I can't completely suspend my belief about her vendetta against Hood. There is no humanly way possible Hood would be taken down by a C-List Avenger in a book not written or co-written by Bendis. The irony is that if Marvel really had faith in some of these titles, they would have big things happen in books like this and hype the heck out of it. But that makes too much logical sense. It has no chance.

The irony is that, yes, DARK REIGN is an event that was so completely planned with the expectation that Republicans would still be in power to vent against, since that has been the motive du jour for stories since 2000-2001, it has in a way created a status quo in which heroes are fighting villains again. Said villains just are in positions of influence and are closer to ruling the world than with cackling in front of a giant laser canon. The premise of how Osborn got to power and how oblivious Marvel's media and citizens are about it is completely ludicrous, but I have to admit to having liked some of the effects. INVINCIBLE IRON MAN and AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE have become better books; it gave AGENTS OF ATLAS a great launch pad, and INCREDIBLE HERCULES got a boost out of relating to it, too. It is the shame the premise wasn't executed properly, but at least it is working on some levels, rather than none.

 

[Dread]

((double post))

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Is it that hard to come up with new/better team names these days?

Maybe it's a response to complaints about A:TI not being a "real" Avengers book. Either way, they're still the New Warriors to me. F*** Counter-Force, f*** the Avengers Resistance.

 

[Dread]

Maybe it's a response to complaints about A:TI not being a "real" Avengers book. Either way, they're still the New Warriors to me. F*** Counter-Force, f*** the Avengers Resistance.

To be fair, the squad does have Tigra, Justice, and Rage there, so they can call themselves Avengers if they want. That was Tigra's point, since Osborn feels he can call his team of maniacs "Avengers", and she wanted the name to stand up for heroic stuff. Captain America was fine calling his band of rebels "the Secret Avengers" during Civil War and many were never Avengers either.

Granted, they all are New Warriors aside for Tigra, so majority rules. There's simply the issue of them hardly being very "new" these days. Counting mini's and their last series, they've had over 100 issues of material (about 111, I think, not counting Annuals or spin-off's for characters like Night-Thrasher or Justice, or the issue of THOR in which they debuted).

That's right...if NEW WARRIORS ever got relaunched again (which, to be fair, they seem to via mini or ongoing attempt every 3-6 years), Marvel could relaunch it as a triple digit issue number, and charge you $4 for the honor. Make Mine Greed! t:

 

[Blader5489]

The irony is that, yes, DARK REIGN is an event that was so completely planned with the expectation that Republicans would still be in power to vent against

Wtf?

 

[Dread]

Wtf?

What? The premise of Dark Reign is that a wealthy, corrupt man exploits an act of terrorism to become in charge of the government and recruits all of his equally evil flunkies to power via nepotism while trampling over civil liberties, punishing the innocent, being a war-monger, and lying to the media. If that doesn't scream a parallel to the Bush/Cheney years, or at least what many think of them, I don't know what is. Dark Reign was likely planned at a "creator summit" in 2006 or 2007 and it very much feels like something from that era, before Republicans officially lost majority power in Congress and before the 2008 historical election.

It also is a bit similar to the President Luthor story that DC did years ago, which was a parallel of that administration, too. Granted, DC did it back when it was politically and socially relevant. Marvel is doing their version when it is moot, aside for zealots.

Honestly it is easy to see how this happened. During the Bush/Cheney years, in most fictional stories, Republicans had become so well known for corruption and/or trampling civil liberties or being war mongers, they became akin to Nazi's; often the villains in stories without needing pesky things like motivation or fleshing. They're conservatives, that's enough. It could be argued that was a consequence of very real, non-fictional corruption and incompetence from Republican power. The problem though is in 2008-2009 the political climate has changed, but Marvel (and to be honest, many in Hollywood) still are too used to shorthand for the last 6-8 years. They haven't gotten the message that Hope and Change is in the air. The military is no longer evil. Congress is no longer ruled by Republicans (and technically hasn't since about 2007 or so), and therefore can no longer be corrupt according to fiction. AMERICAN DAD at the very least has tried to compensate by focusing more on the Smith family than on cheap Bush jokes. Marvel hasn't even gone that far.

There is no way an Obama administration would allow an Osborn to essentially act like a Dick Cheney on steroids. There is no way the media would swallow it, the same media that during CW was questioning anything and everything. If one wants to make a mild political statement criticizing an Obama administration, or a Pelosi-era Congress, it won't be the same story as criticizing 2006 era stuff. There are different nuances. The closest thing I can think of was QUANTUM OF SOLACE, in which the Bond villain was exploiting the Global Warming frenzy for his own nefarious purposes.

At the very least, though, Christos Gage in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE has proven to not be as partisan as, oh, Mark Millar in his writing. He's literally writing a story in which Tigra is REJECTING a call for abortion for a baby that was conceived by alien date rape. That's red state morality, which is rarely seen in comics unless it is in the form of domestic terrorists like the Watchdogs, or "jokes about hicks" like Razorback. While I'm not saying I only want to see red state morality (I live in a blue state and much of "red state" stuff brushes against me, such as intolerance for homosexuals), I like a balance, and am one of the few who realizes that comics that are too partisan one way or the other in values are just as predictable as political hacks in real life who are the same; ideal life is through moderation, politically as well as in other areas. No side is ever correct 100% of the time.

The rest of the post where you pulled that quote was defending the current course of Dark Reign so far because it has allowed heroes to fight villains again, just with the public favor twisted for drama. It requires swallowing a whale of a premise, but I can forgive a ludicrous Act 1 if Act 2 gets better. The dilemma of course is Act 3, but that's months away.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

To be fair, the squad does have Tigra, Justice, and Rage there, so they can call themselves Avengers if they want. That was Tigra's point, since Osborn feels he can call his team of maniacs "Avengers", and she wanted the name to stand up for heroic stuff. Captain America was fine calling his band of rebels "the Secret Avengers" during Civil War and many were never Avengers either.

Ain't none of those people founders or long-time members with Cap's level of standing, hence they can't christen themselves Avengers in my eyes. They're the New Warriors. The majority are Warriors and it fits as a resistance movement name since, as Gauntlet pointed out, they were the Initiative's symbolic whipping boy.

 

[Dread]

Ain't none of those people founders or long-time members with Cap's level of standing, hence they can't christen themselves Avengers in my eyes. They're the New Warriors. The majority are Warriors and it fits as a resistance movement name since, as Gauntlet pointed out, they were the Initiative's symbolic whipping boy.

The X-Men are whoever happens to be there and you don't need a founder for any of the squads.

The problem is no one in Marvel sees the New Warriors as serious legitimate heroes, and they never will. Tigra's speech was about retaking the Avengers name and she specifically mentioned other ex-Avengers Justice and Rage. I mean yeah it does seem like it's just Tigra and the New Warriors (plus Gauntlet), but she was trying to organize them as Avengers in that instance. She does have tenure over a few of them on the Avengers. Her point was basically, "if anyone can call themselves Avengers now, why not us" and so on. Gage has given Tigra quite a bit of experienced moxie since he's become solo writer.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The X-Men don't have the class the Avengers do.

And the only way people will start to respect the New Warriors is if someone tries to make them respectable.

 

[Dread]

The Justice League usually doesn't need a "founder" for whatever heroes DC wants to fill that role. For the record, Tigra did join in the 80's so she's been with the team longer than quite a few members. The New Avengers don't really have a "founder" and the only one from the "second class", Clint Barton, takes marching orders from Luke Cage (of all people; he's led the Avengers or the Thunderbolts before, but I digress).

For me a superhero team can call themselves whatever they say they are. The last "New Warriors" were just Donyell teamed with a bunch of former X-Men, mostly Generation X to be exact, and they still were the New Warriors. Lord knows a gazillion heroes have been Defenders.

"Rebel Avengers" probably would roll off the tongue better than Avengers Resistance, but whatever.

Most of the New Warriors were originally annoyed kid heroes who wanted to be Avengers if given half the chance anyway.

It's all a bit moot since they may beat up some of Osborn's stooges, but there's no way they'll take Osborn or Hood down. The figure who does that will be in Bendis' obligatory mini, and it likely will be a villain since Bendis' moral of comic fiction is that heroes are bunglers and need fate or villains to save the day for them when it counts. Which is a shame since most other writers like Gage or Fraction or Pak & Ven Lente have executed Dark Reign much better than he would have. I'll suspend that belief, though, since I am enjoying where Gage is taking the book.

Besides, it was on Justice or Thrasher to declare themselves New Warriors and disagree with Tigra. They didn't. All hands went for Avengers.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Preview of Avengers: The Initiative #28 a.k.a. PRODIGY COWBOYS THE F*** UP!

Damn, I can't wait for this.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Holy ****. I knew there was a reason I liked Prodigy

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I hope it's not a ruse. Ritchie's hot-tempered enough to break with Osborn, but he's also pretty weak-willed at times, so I could see him going along if Osborn suggested this as a trap to lure the New Warriors out of hiding.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Yeah, guess it would be wise not to get too excited haha.

Still, that comment along with Clint's message a few months ago have got to be planting some seeds in the general public's brains. I know regular citizens of the MU are quite naive and half ******ed, but they have to suspect something.