Avengers the Initiative

[TheCorpulent1]

It'll probably end with Clor getting to asgard, raising some hell, and then Thor appearing back to destroy him without too much effort. He doesn't seem anywhere near as powerful as the real deal, especially with the odin power.

I'll also use this opportunity to express just how much it pisses me off that anybody would still trust or listen to Loki. Balder getting manipulated SO easily when he knows all about Loki's bs just irks the hell out of me.

Again, show me one time Balder's actually been manipulated by Loki. He's doing his own thing. Loki just happens to keep putting him in situations where the only ways out are unappealing.

And personally, I think it'd be much more interesting if Clor hits Asgard now that Thor's away and Thor doesn't hear about it until afterward. Let's see the other Asgardians defend themselves from a crazed, almost-as-powerful-as-the-original Thor. It'll knock Clor down a peg and bump the other Asgardians--who, let's face it, have almost always been mostly useless--up.

 

[piccolo]

Again, show me one time Balder's actually been manipulated by Loki. He's doing his own thing. Loki just happens to keep putting him in situations where the only ways out are unappealing.

Loki orchestrated the entire event of kicking Thor out of asgard. If he'd told her/him/it to just **** as soon as she started suggesting things to him, none of this would have happened. "Hey Balder, do you ever wonder why--" "Loki, shut up." They should have long ago banished Loki or done away with him. Guy/chick is nothing but trouble.

And personally, I think it'd be much more interesting if Clor hits Asgard now that Thor's away and Thor doesn't hear about it until afterward. Let's see the other Asgardians defend themselves from a crazed, almost-as-powerful-as-the-original Thor. It'll knock Clor down a peg and bump the other Asgardians--who, let's face it, have almost always been mostly useless--up.

BRB is still around isnt he? Also i'd imagine Clor might take it easy on the rest of the asgardians, thinking that they are his brethren and comrades. I doubt he'd actually try to do real harm to any of them.

I wonder if Loki knows of Clor and how he/she will react to it?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Loki orchestrated the entire event of kicking Thor out of asgard. If he'd told her/him/it to just **** as soon as she started suggesting things to him, none of this would have happened. "Hey Balder, do you ever wonder why--" "Loki, shut up." They should have long ago banished Loki or done away with him. Guy/chick is nothing but trouble.

Thor gave him a chance to rejoin Asgard after he promised to be good. It's Thor's fault that he was there in Asgard, not Balder's.

Also, Balder did tell Loki to piss off several times. Then he learned that he really is a son of Odin and that Thor, his best friend, lied to him for years to conceal it. The rift between Thor and Balder has been building on its own, partially due to Loki's indirect actions, but mostly just because of what Balder's seeing every day. Thor clearly favors mortals over his own people, since he heads out into the world every day while the other Asgardians are made to just sit around and do nothing. There's a very clear progression to this rift in Asgard between Thor and Balder, and most of it isn't directly Loki's fault. And I say "rift" like there's even that much tainting their friendship at this point, which there isn't. Even after all the s*** that's gone down, Balder threatened to kill Loki for even talking bad about Thor after the banishment.

It's not like Balder's been sitting around going, "You know, this Loki guy's got it all figured out. I think I'll listen to everything he says and become his willing stooge!" He's acting based on his own observations. Thor violated a cardinal law, rulership fell to Balder, neither Balder nor Thor thought that declaring Thor above the law of Asgard would be a good idea, and nobody could actually prove Loki did a damn thing. It was a no-win situation and, clearly, Thor thought Balder made the right call as well, since he left willingly and believed that the situation would eventually be righted and Loki would be exposed. It's no different from Captain America willingly surrendering and allowing himself to go to trial (almost, anyway) for his actions in Civil War--self-sacrifice is what noble heroes do when there's no other way out, or if those other ways out would result in innocent people getting hurt. Getting away scot-free with murdering a royal family member would've tarnished Thor's kingship.

BRB is still around isnt he? Also i'd imagine Clor might take it easy on the rest of the asgardians, thinking that they are his brethren and comrades. I doubt he'd actually try to do real harm to any of them.

I wonder if Loki knows of Clor and how he/she will react to it?

Loki's probably get a great laugh out of it. He loves seeing Thor act evil. He's made Thor act evil himself on a few occasions.

Beta Ray Bill flew off into space, Clor's demented, and everyone knows he's not the real Thor. I doubt any of the Asgardians would consider him anything more than an affront to their king, whom I suspect they still mostly love in spite of his failings and banishment, and Clor would never be able to convince them he's anything more. It's easy to see how it'd escalate from there.

 

[piccolo]

Thor gave him a chance to rejoin Asgard after he promised to be good. It's Thor's fault that he was there in Asgard, not Balder's.

Also, Balder did tell Loki to piss off several times. Then he learned that he really is a son of Odin and that Thor, his best friend, lied to him for years to conceal it. The rift between Thor and Balder has been building on its own, partially due to Loki's indirect actions, but mostly just because of what Balder's seeing every day. Thor clearly favors mortals over his own people, since he heads out into the world every day while the other Asgardians are made to just sit around and do nothing. There's a very clear progression to this rift in Asgard between Thor and Balder, and most of it isn't directly Loki's fault. And I say "rift" like there's even that much tainting their friendship at this point, which there isn't. Even after all the s*** that's gone down, Balder threatened to kill Loki for even talking bad about Thor after the banishment.

It's not like Balder's been sitting around going, "You know, this Loki guy's got it all figured out. I think I'll listen to everything he says and become his willing stooge!" He's acting based on his own observations. Thor violated a cardinal law, rulership fell to Balder, neither Balder nor Thor thought that declaring Thor above the law of Asgard would be a good idea, and nobody could actually prove Loki did a damn thing. It was a no-win situation and, clearly, Thor thought Balder made the right call as well, since he left willingly and believed that the situation would eventually be righted and Loki would be exposed. It's no different from Captain America willingly surrendering and allowing himself to go to trial (almost, anyway) for his actions in Civil War--self-sacrifice is what noble heroes do when there's no other way out.

Eh, you might be right. It still ticks me off though seeing Thor and Balder put on strings (long-reaching and unavoidable as they may be) by Loki again.

Loki's probably get a great laugh out of it. He loves seeing Thor act evil. He's made Thor act evil himself on a few occasions.

Beta Ray Bill flew off into space, Clor's demented, and everyone knows he's not the real Thor. I doubt any of the Asgardians would consider him anything more than an affront to their king, whom I suspect they still mostly love in spite of his failings and banishment, and Clor would never be able to convince them he's anything more. It's easy to see how it'd escalate from there.

I wasn't saying conflict wouldn't readily arise, just that I doubt Clor will be going all that hard at the rest of the asgardians. He'll probably do just enough to hold them off while demanding that the real Thor show up so he can tame his vile usurping ass. He seems to have a demented code of honor.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, either way, the whole city of Asgardians should be able to take Clor, no matter how hard he fights. Especially now that the other Asgardians actually seem to have powers beyond the standard mid-range super-strength and such.

 

[piccolo]

I'm looking forward to the Volstagg one-liners.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

"Mayhap we should sit down together over some mead and a fine shank of lamb and talk about this!"

 

[Colossal Spoons]

The Warriors Three are often the first people destroyed by an attacker so don't get too excited

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Ideally, Balder would take Clor down. He's criminally underrated as a badass--he's supposed to be right up there with Brunnhilde for the title of second-greatest warrior in Asgard after Thor--yet he barely ever does anything to show it. Taking Clor down would be a fantastic opportunity for him to shine.

 

[piccolo]

The Warriors Three are often the first people destroyed by an attacker so don't get too excited

His one-liners about getting his ass kicked are usually the most awesome haha.

 

[Vanguard07]

I'd love to see a Baldur vs Clor throwdown. Especially with Baldur being the current reigning lord of Asgard. Which may or may not mean that he'll be the proud new owner of his very own Odin/Thor/Baldur-force at the time.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Ideally, Balder would take Clor down. He's criminally underrated as a badass--he's supposed to be right up there with Brunnhilde for the title of second-greatest warrior in Asgard after Thor--yet he barely ever does anything to show it. Taking Clor down would be a fantastic opportunity for him to shine.

I don't know much about Bruunhilde but as far as underrated goes; I think Heimdal gets the shaft a lot too.

His one-liners about getting his ass kicked are usually the most awesome haha.

You need to see the Hulk vs Thor movie for just that reason.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but Heimdall tends to get shafted because he's the first guy anyone comes across on their way to Asgard, so he must necessarily be the first to fall. Sad, but true.

I'd love to see a Baldur vs Clor throwdown. Especially with Baldur being the current reigning lord of Asgard. Which may or may not mean that he'll be the proud new owner of his very own Odin/Thor/Baldur-force at the time.

Even without the Odinpower (which I suspect will probably stay with Thor), he's had the neglected ability to generate heat and light from his body since the Simonson mini-series he got back in the '80s. Enough to melt an entire frost giant castle.

 

[Vanguard07]

true. And shouldnt he also be immune to harm from everything except mistletoe? Or did that stop after Ragnarok?

 

[piccolo]

I don't know much about Bruunhilde but as far as underrated goes; I think Heimdal gets the shaft a lot too.



You need to see the Hulk vs Thor movie for just that reason.

I saw it. I was very pleased at Wolverine's success vs. Thor's.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

true. And shouldnt he also be immune to harm from everything except mistletoe? Or did that stop after Ragnarok?

That only ever worked in the old Asgard (the one in its own dimension, not the city floating over Broxton). Even before Ragnarok, Balder was as killable as anyone else when he came to Earth. And, apparently, the gods are even weaker and "more mortal" or whatever now, since that Asgardian died from a little stab wound while he and that other guy were sparring. Same deal with the Olympians in Incredible Herc since Olympus got f***ed up by Mikaboshi. Lame, but it seems if the gods are separated from their realms, they become weaker.

 

[Vanguard07]

Fair enough.
What indication has there been that it's the same deal with the Olympians though?

I mean, Herc was riddled with bullet holes and filled with Hydra's blood poison (the most deadliest poison evvaaar apparently) since Zeus' death and it didnt do him any lasting harm at all.

It seems to me that the greek's are still just as hard to put down as ever.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Poseidon, weakened to the point of frailty and quivering at having a gun pointed at him like it actually meant a damn, is my main reason for thinking the Olympians are weaker now.

Herc and Ares seem to be the exceptions. Herc's always been tougher than most of the other Olympians put together, though, and Ares is in Bendis' good graces, which explains his heightened level of prowess and badassitude (seriously, before that Oeming mini and his stint on the Bendisvengers, Ares was probably the most pathetic excuse for a war god ever).

 

[Vanguard07]

Yeah I suppose the Poseidon thing is a decent example. Although to be fair there could be mitigating circumstances. I mean we don't know what spells or magic were at play there, nor do we know that the gun wasn't some fancy special super gun.

And arent Amazons super strong in the MU as well? or is that only DC?

I personally believe that the Olympians are as powerfull as ever just that the spells/curses/enchantments specifically created by Zeus have come undone as a result of his death.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think the Amazons are super-strong in either publisher's universe. Wonder Woman's a giant exception to the rule since she was blessed by the gods and sculpted from clay to be the perfect Amazon in the first place. The other Amazons are just super-badass warriors, I think.

I would think Zeus' enchantments and such are still in play, personally. Odin's certainly didn't go away when he died, and Zeus was right about as powerful as Odin was. His thunderbolt's still active, too.

 

[Dread]

Maybe we can get another mini-series out of Clor's attack on Asgard. Remember, when a character's main series is selling as well as Thor's and there are dangling plot threads around, it's actually a possibility that minis or one-shots will be created specifically to tie those loose ends up if the main title won't. It's like free money for Marvel and it actually works out well for us too.

Indeed. A one-shot or short mini written by Fraction, who seems to be Marvel's go-to writer for non-JMS Thor material (besides Alan Davis, once) for the last year or two, seems likely. Maybe even inevitable.

For the record, Thor was an idiot for letting Loki back into Asgard scott free. Not even a child would have made such a mistake. The fact that Loki is simply doing what he/she always does is no surprise. And Balder is a stooge, no matter how you spin it, Corp. He's not a drooling minion, but he's done nothing to impede Loki's rise to power and virtually always agrees with anything Loki says, which has happened more times to be a "coincidence". Had Thor banished Loki, we wouldn't have had this melodrama, but New Asgard would also be safer. JMS in interviews dismissed the idea of having Loki pretend to be someone else, even Sif, as being, in so many words, "a waste of time", but I see it as a writer overthinking his audience. I would buy the situation a lot better if Thor and Balder, and everyone else, were being completely fooled, rather than simply all riding along with Loki's half truths and non-promises.

I like the status quo for Thor being booted, but he was a gullible tool for allowing it to happen, and nothing changes that. Like I said in a few posts ages ago, this is akin to Superman trusting Lex Luthor in the Fortress of Solitude and then being surprised when, GASP, all the robots and machines started turning on him. My, I wonder!

If one allows a fox into the hen-house, then one deserves to lose every hen to the fox. Period.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Fair enough.
What indication has there been that it's the same deal with the Olympians though?

I mean, Herc was riddled with bullet holes and filled with Hydra's blood poison (the most deadliest poison evvaaar apparently) since Zeus' death and it didnt do him any lasting harm at all.

It seems to me that the greek's are still just as hard to put down as ever.

As Corp said, with the exception of Hercules and Ares, the Olympians seem to be in an incredibly weakened state with Poseidon being captured, Hera taking over, and the feuding between Hera/Ares and Hercules/Athena. Although I wonder why the Olympians wouldn't be even more fractured considering that Hera should hate Ares.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Why should Hera hate Ares? I could see Ares hating her, but she's his mommy.

For the record, Thor was an idiot for letting Loki back into Asgard scott free. Not even a child would have made such a mistake. The fact that Loki is simply doing what he/she always does is no surprise. And Balder is a stooge, no matter how you spin it, Corp. He's not a drooling minion, but he's done nothing to impede Loki's rise to power and virtually always agrees with anything Loki says, which has happened more times to be a "coincidence". Had Thor banished Loki, we wouldn't have had this melodrama, but New Asgard would also be safer. JMS in interviews dismissed the idea of having Loki pretend to be someone else, even Sif, as being, in so many words, "a waste of time", but I see it as a writer overthinking his audience. I would buy the situation a lot better if Thor and Balder, and everyone else, were being completely fooled, rather than simply all riding along with Loki's half truths and non-promises.

I'm not spinning anything. Like I said the last time we got into this discussion, you seem to want Balder to be "smart" by effectively not being himself. It'd be smart for Balder to ignore everything Loki says and side with Thor because Thor will obviously be proven right in the end, but that oversimplifies everything that's happened to an almost unbelievable degree. It'd be simpler for Superman to murder Lex Luthor from space while he's asleep too, but you would never expect Superman to do that because that's just flat-out not something Superman would do. Balder not being contemplative and law-abiding is something he wouldn't do, either. Some people really are just too noble for their own good.

And, while I do agree that Thor was foolish to let Loki stay in Asgard, there is that familial bond between them. For all the crap they do to each other, I don't think Thor and Loki really, truly hate each other. Thor wanted to believe that his brother could change, and I can understand that. He's like a parent who lets his good-for-nothing, slacker kid move back in to leech off him for the millionth time. He knows he stands to lose everything, but it's worth it if, just this once, the kid can prove him wrong and actually do something right. Thor's basically got battered-wife syndrome with Loki at this point, if you think about it that way. "No, he can still be the man I want him to be! I know he can!" SMACK "Ow! It's okay, baby, I know you only do it 'cause you can't express yourself any other way."

 

[moraldeficiency]

I don't understand this. People are upset the god of trickery is manipulating people. Do people get upset when the juggernaut uses his superstrength or when the human torch uses fire powers?

Gee why is loki able to get his was through subtle manipulation? I don't know maybe cause that's the thing he's the very best in several worlds at doing? Maybe. Christ why don't people start *****ing about thor hitting things with a hammer too much while we're at it.

I should also point out that every thing loki's been exiled things have worked out worse for the asgardians in the long run cause he comes back with a vengence.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I think they're more upset at Balder and Thor for buying into Loki's deceit, even though they're really not. People are looking at the situations as omniscient readers and assuming the characters ought to have their same level of knowledge and act accordingly. Nobody's oblivious to what Loki's doing. But all they have are suspicions because, unlike us, they don't actually see Loki doing anything.