Avengers the Initiative

[moraldeficiency]

But loki hasn't lied about anything yet, he's just ommited certian points. If since you brought back the god of lies he/she hasn't lied once, well that would actually go with the reform thing. Nobody wanted to believe or trust loki this go round but it's hard to deny truths.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Exactly. Balder's only being duped by Loki in the sense that Loki is strategically exposing him to certain truths that Loki knows Balder will react to in certain ways, so I don't see Balder as a stooge at all. I see him as a guy who wants desperately to believe in his life-long friend but who keeps getting obstacles in the form of secrets, lies, and failures on Thor's part thrown in his way. Add the issue of kingship over a whole city of cranky gods into the mix and all of a sudden things become way more complicated than I think people are giving them credit for being.

 

[piccolo]

I don't understand this. People are upset the god of trickery is manipulating people. Do people get upset when the juggernaut uses his superstrength or when the human torch uses fire powers?

Gee why is loki able to get his was through subtle manipulation? I don't know maybe cause that's the thing he's the very best in several worlds at doing? Maybe. Christ why don't people start *****ing about thor hitting things with a hammer too much while we're at it.

I should also point out that every thing loki's been exiled things have worked out worse for the asgardians in the long run cause he comes back with a vengence.

I realize "Loki manipulates everyone around him" is part of the Asgardian mythos, but I still don't like him. And I don't like it when he gets over on characters I do like. And you know what? I don't have to. Just like I hate seeing Darkseid reap success, even though he's an uber powerful new god.

I mean, i'm not happy when Dr. Doom or Wolverine catches a beatdown in comics either. Are you saying I shouldn't care when Loki screws fav characters of mine, just because thats what he does? I don't buy that, and I think the implication in there is a slap to comic readers in general. Authors are trying to elicit emotional response, and readers aren't zombies with indifference toward everything one way or another. Some of us, ca-razy as it is, aren't ecstatic when people we don't like cause trouble to people we do. Regardless of whether its their first time doing it or their millionth.

Manipulation isnt his superpower like the Torch's is flaming on, btw. And even if it was, thats like saying Sarah Michelle Gellar was using superpowers in Cruel Intentions, so nobody should have hated her at the end of it. Gee, why do people get irked by manipulators who screw other people's lives up? What a mystery.

What it comes down to is, Loki is a dick. And **** him.

Do people get upset when the juggernaut uses his superstrength

If he uses it to beat the crap out of a character they like, yes, they do. Welcome to the world of comics. *shrug*

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, Loki's supposed to be a dick, so it sounds like JMS is doing all right by him. I like Loki because he's unabashedly unlikeable. He knows he's a jerk and he doesn't care. That's a liberating notion and it makes him a fun character. I probably wouldn't want to hang out with him, but that doesn't mean he's a bad character.

 

[RockSP]

Do people get upset when the juggernaut uses his superstrength or when the human torch uses fire powers?

If he uses it to beat the crap out of a character they like, yes, they do. Welcome to the world of comics. *shrug*

Not really. Characters fight. Sometimes characters lose. *shrug*

 

[piccolo]

Exactly. Balder's only being duped by Loki in the sense that Loki is strategically exposing him to certain truths that Loki knows Balder will react to in certain ways, so I don't see Balder as a stooge at all. I see him as a guy who wants desperately to believe in his life-long friend but who keeps getting obstacles in the form of secrets, lies, and failures on Thor's part thrown in his way. Add the issue of kingship over a whole city of cranky gods into the mix and all of a sudden things become way more complicated than I think people are giving them credit for being.

While you're admittedly right about the Balder part, how does any of that make Loki any less of an unlikeable dick? I like Thor and Balder, I hate Loki, Loki manipulates events to negative results for the two of them, it ticks me off. Seems like a logical unfolding of events to me.

I dont care if Loki is the god of lies or not. Screw that guy.

 

[piccolo]

Well, Loki's supposed to be a dick, so it sounds like JMS is doing all right by him. I like Loki because he's unabashedly unlikeable. He knows he's a jerk and he doesn't care. That's a liberating notion and it makes him a fun character. I probably wouldn't want to hang out with him, but that doesn't mean he's a bad character.

I didnt say he was a bad character. He's clearly a great villain...I just don't like him. Which is probably a testament to how great a villain he is.

Thats not unusual at all for marvel antagonists.

 

[piccolo]

Not really. Characters fight. Sometimes characters lose. *shrug*

If that is the general feeling around here, then its certainly the most mellow comics message board i've encountered so far. There are a lot of mb fans out there who definitely don't feel that way.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I didnt say he was a bad character. He's clearly a great villain...I just don't like him. Which is probably a testament to how great a villain he is.

Thats not unusual at all for marvel antagonists.

Fair enough.

 

[RockSP]

If that is the general feeling around here, then its certainly the most mellow comics message board i've encountered so far. There are a lot of mb fans out there who definitely don't feel that way.

Just speaking for myself. I'm not one of those "my favorite character can never be touched, ever!!!" types.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Me, either. I like seeing my favorite characters have to struggle now and then. That's where the drama comes from.

Granted, sometimes it goes overboard and stops being enjoyable, like the Hulk/Thor fights of the last couple decades or so. At this point, Thor's just a b**** whenever the Hulk comes around, so as a Thor fan, those are tough to watch.

I'm really beating that dead horse lately.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I realize "Loki manipulates everyone around him" is part of the Asgardian mythos, but I still don't like him.

No you don't.

And I don't like it when he gets over on characters I do like. And you know what? I don't have to.

I find your lack of good taste appalling.

Just like I hate seeing Darkseid reap success, even though he's an uber powerful new god.

He rarely does, batman capped his ass.

I mean, i'm not happy when Dr. Doom or Wolverine catches a beatdown in comics either.

Wolverine really isn't that powerful, it's part of his strategy to catch beatdowns from time to time. He often leads with getting shot a lot.

Are you saying I shouldn't care when Loki screws fav characters of mine, just because thats what he does? I don't buy that, and I think the implication in there is a slap to comic readers in general. Authors are trying to elicit emotional response, and readers aren't zombies with indifference toward everything one way or another. Some of us, ca-razy as it is, aren't ecstatic when people we don't like cause trouble to people we do. Regardless of whether its their first time doing it or their millionth.

I'm saying if someone's the god of trickery then maybe don't be shocked when he tricks someone. Loki's been doing this to all the asgardians and everyone else from about the start of the MU. To say that a brilliantly written strategy which only involved telling people the truth by one of if not the smartest god in the MU makes your favorite characters something less, makes me think you have no objective viewpoint beyond seeing you're favorite characters win all the time, which just sounds boring.

Those problems you speak of are called conflict and it's a pretty necessary story component. What do you want in a comic, your favorite characters beating down nonthreats that have no chance?

Manipulation isnt his superpower like the Torch's is flaming on, btw. And even if it was, thats like saying Sarah Michelle Gellar was using superpowers in Cruel Intentions, so nobody should have hated her at the end of it. Gee, why do people get irked by manipulators who screw other people's lives up? What a mystery.

Manipulation is something that he does best. I'll tell you a neat historical fact, the vikings actually valued trickery and the power of the mind over acts of strength. It was considered nobel to beat someone in a fight but it was the supreme test of power to beat someone without lifting a finger. Loki just represents the other side of the spectrum.

Your cruel intentions reference is odd and off putting.

What it comes down to is, Loki is a dick. And **** him.

Of course he's a dick, if you were treated the way he was you wouldn't like asgardians either. I'm guessing you know nothing about the character.

If he uses it to beat the crap out of a character they like, yes, they do. Welcome to the world of comics. *shrug*

So the person you like should always win regardless or you're pissed? That's a fun attitude. Can't wait to see your fanfic where wolverine slices galactus up because any other result would just suck for you. That's compelling.

You keep your adorable world of comics where you're characters always win. There are a select few of us fans that realize it's in a hero failing/falling/defeated but not giving up that you get a glimpse of what true heroism is. Not bulling someone weaker but standing up to someone stronger.

Here's the deal, end of the day, those heroes you like are only as good as their enemies. The more powerful or smart or capable your enemy is, the more of a hero you have to be to defeat him/her and that makes your character better.

 

[piccolo]

Well, Loki's supposed to be a dick, so it sounds like JMS is doing all right by him. .

And just to add to that, it definitely means JMS is doing a good job with the character. I'm sure he'd be happier to hear a fan is experiencing these kinds of emotions reading his work than he would to hear one was reading it and not giving a crap one way or the other. I never said it wasn't a great story, or that the book was of bad quality, or that Loki was a bad villain. None of those things are true.

These are just the responses of a fan who reads the book with a strong connection to the protagonist and a strong avulsion to the antagonist, nothing more. I'm sure by the end of the arc everything will be righted, and the hero will conquer over evil, blah blah blah. But until then its just me reading about Thor and the villain winning. This is regular story-reader stuff.

 

[Varient]

But loki hasn't lied about anything yet, he's just ommited certian points. If since you brought back the god of lies he/she hasn't lied once, well that would actually go with the reform thing. Nobody wanted to believe or trust loki this go round but it's hard to deny truths.

why do you guys keep saying "he" in ref to Loki?
Has he changed back?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Loki will always be packing sausage in my mind.

 

[piccolo]

Wolverine really isn't that powerful, it's part of his strategy to catch beatdowns from time to time. He often leads with getting shot a lot.

Just an example.

I'm saying if someone's the god of trickery then maybe don't be shocked when he tricks someone.

I never expressed any shock or surprise at his actions or their success. We're coming to strawmen now. I fully expect Loki to manipulate people. I just don't enjoy it when he does (at least to fav characters), because I don't like him. You seem to think I have to in order to qualify for some self-set standard of what makes good taste in a good fan.

Loki's been doing this to all the asgardians and everyone else from about the start of the MU. To say that a brilliantly written strategy which only involved telling people the truth by one of if not the smartest god in the MU makes your favorite characters something less

But I didn't say that.

makes me think you have no objective viewpoint beyond seeing you're favorite characters win all the time, which just sounds boring.

I certainly don't look forward to seeing them lose. If that sounds boring to you, than kudos to you for having an opinion.

Adversity is fantastic for characters and their development. I like Thor facing adversity. I like feeling angry when bad things happen to him, and I like feeling good when he overcomes them. I like the highs and lows of each individual story and the journey they take the readers on. Yeah, i'm ticked that Loki manipulated everyone so flawlessly and got what he wanted. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate what a great plan it was. Or that it was great writing. I'm just reading a story and reacting to events.

Those problems you speak of are called conflict and it's a pretty necessary story component. What do you want in a comic, your favorite characters beating down nonthreats that have no chance?

I didnt call them problems - you did.

One of the functions of conflict is to elicit responses from readers. If nobody cared what was happening, nobody would buy. Right? I'm going to keep getting Thor because I want to see how/if the conflict resolves, and if Thor is able to right things in Asgard. And then after this conflict is resolved, i'm going to have the same reaction to the next conflict that arises, although hopefully I won't have to talk to you about it, and then keep buying to see what happens. Because I care about the characters.

Thats what makes comics so great. I'm not really, actually pissed off about Loki manipulating Thor. Its what a great villain does and the current story wouldn't be so promising without it. But thats the way the books are designed. You identify with the protag and root against his adversary.

Its just part of the viewing process. Getting sad while watching a sad movie. Feeling inspired after watching an inspirational one. These things are normal. Just because I don't like Loki and think he's a dick, doesn't mean I don't think its a good story. Its a great one. And I can't wait to see if he gets his comeuppance.

Manipulation is something that he does best. I'll tell you a neat historical fact, the vikings actually valued trickery and the power of the mind over acts of strength. It was considered nobel to beat someone in a fight but it was the supreme test of power to beat someone without lifting a finger. Loki just represents the other side of the spectrum.

My life feels enriched already.

Of course he's a dick, if you were treated the way he was you wouldn't like asgardians either. I'm guessing you know nothing about the character.

Of course I don't. Clearly, if I did, I would agree with you.

So the person you like should always win regardless or you're pissed?

I was speaking in general. Comic fights do make people happy or upset depending on their preference - thats why battle boards exist on the net and are extremely popular. Thats why Kurt Busiek was involved in internet s---storms after JLAvengers was released.

Its certainly not the end of anyone's world if their favorite fictitious character loses a fight or is manipulated into exile, but people prefer them to do well the same as they prefer their favorite wrestlers to win matches, or their favorite boxers to win fights. Rocky III was an awesome movie, but nobody wanted him to lose to Clubber Lang. We were angry when he got beat up, and then as he made his rise back into shape and took the title back, we were happy. Same thing.

That's a fun attitude. Can't wait to see your fanfic where wolverine slices galactus up because any other result would just suck for you. That's compelling.

Larry Hama almost did that. Unfortunately it was a weakened Galactus and Wolverine didn't actually do anything to him. I sent him a letter. t:

You keep your adorable world of comics where you're characters always win. There are a select few of us fans that realize it's in a hero failing/falling/defeated but not giving up that you get a glimpse of what true heroism is.

And being there through the low's to root for them and against their enemies is part of the fun.

*Skull and Bones Comic Book Readers Club Entrance Exam, Question 21.

Yeah, I passed too. Extra credit question was a biotch, wasn't it?

 

[moraldeficiency]

Just an example.

I never expressed any shock or surprise at his actions or their success. We're coming to strawmen now. I fully expect Loki to manipulate people. I just don't enjoy it when he does (at least to fav characters), because I don't like him. You seem to think I have to in order to qualify for some self-set standard of what makes good taste in a good fan.

But I didn't say that.

I certainly don't look forward to seeing them lose. If that sounds boring to you, than kudos to you for having an opinion.

Adversity is fantastic for characters and their development. I like Thor facing adversity. I like feeling angry when bad things happen to him, and I like feeling good when he overcomes them. I like the highs and lows of each individual story and the journey they take the readers on. Yeah, i'm ticked that Loki manipulated everyone so flawlessly and got what he wanted. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate what a great plan it was. Or that it was great writing. I'm just reading a story and reacting to events.

I didnt call them problems - you did.

One of the functions of conflict is to elicit responses from readers. If nobody cared what was happening, nobody would buy. Right? I'm going to keep getting Thor because I want to see how/if the conflict resolves, and if Thor is able to right things in Asgard. And then after this conflict is resolved, i'm going to have the same reaction to the next conflict that arises, although hopefully I won't have to talk to you about it, and then keep buying to see what happens. Because I care about the characters.

Thats what makes comics so great. I'm not really, actually pissed off about Loki manipulating Thor. Its what a great villain does and the current story wouldn't be so promising without it. But thats the way the books are designed. You identify with the protag and root against his adversary.

Its just part of the viewing process. Getting sad while watching a sad movie. Feeling inspired after watching an inspirational one. These things are normal. Just because I don't like Loki and think he's a dick, doesn't mean I don't think its a good story. Its a great one. And I can't wait to see if he gets his comeuppance.

My life feels enriched already.

Of course I don't. Clearly, if I did, I would agree with you.

I was speaking in general. Comic fights do make people happy or upset depending on their preference - thats why battle boards exist on the net and are extremely popular. Thats why Kurt Busiek was involved in internet s---storms after JLAvengers was released.

Its certainly not the end of anyone's world if their favorite fictitious character loses a fight or is manipulated into exile, but people prefer them to do well the same as they prefer their favorite wrestlers to win matches, or their favorite boxers to win fights.

Larry Hama almost did that. Unfortunately it was a weakened Galactus and Wolverine didn't actually do anything to him. I sent him a letter. t:

And being there through the low's to root for them and against their enemies is part of the fun.

*Skull and Bones Comic Book Readers Club Entrance Exam, Question 21.

Yeah, I passed too. Extra credit question was a biotch, wasn't it?

Marky got with Sharon
And Sharon got Sharice
She was sharing Sharon's outlook
On the topic of disease
Mikey had a facial scar
And Bobby was a racist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Tommy played piano
Like a kid out in the rain
Then he lost his leg in Dallas
He was dancing with a train
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes
Some will die in hot pursuit
In fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

[Chorus]

Another Mikey took a knife
While arguing in traffic
Flipper died a natural death
He caught a nasty virus
Then there was the ever-present
Football player rapist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Polly caught a bullet
But it only hit his leg
Well it should have been a better shot
And got him in the head
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain





V- yeah I know I slipped, though as that loki issue showed he's still a dude really. A lot of new people showing up recently.

 

[piccolo]

Marky got with Sharon
And Sharon got Sharice
She was sharing Sharon's outlook
On the topic of disease
Mikey had a facial scar
And Bobby was a racist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Tommy played piano
Like a kid out in the rain
Then he lost his leg in Dallas
He was dancing with a train
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes
Some will die in hot pursuit
In fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

[Chorus]

Another Mikey took a knife
While arguing in traffic
Flipper died a natural death
He caught a nasty virus
Then there was the ever-present
Football player rapist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Polly caught a bullet
But it only hit his leg
Well it should have been a better shot
And got him in the head
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

Straight outta Compton crazy mother------ named Ice Cube
From the gang called ------ With Attitudes
When I'm called off I got a sawed off
Squeeze the trigger and bodies are hauled off
You too boy if ya ---- with me
The police are gonna hafta come and get me
Off yo ass that's how I'm goin out
For the punk mother------- that's showin out
------ start to mumble, they wanna rumble
Mix em and cook em in a pot like gumbo
Goin off on a mother------ like that
with a gat that's pointed at yo ass
So give it up smooth
Ain't no tellin when I'm down for a jack move
Here's a murder rap to keep yo dancin
with a crime record like Charles Manson
AK-47 is the tool
Don't make me act the mother------ fool
Me you can go toe to toe, no maybe
I'm knockin ------ out tha box, daily
yo weekly, monthly and yearly
until them dumb mother------ see clearly
that I'm down with the capital C-P-T
Boy you can't ---- with me
So when I'm in your neighborhood, you better duck
Coz Ice Cube is crazy as ----
As I leave, believe I'm stompin
but when I come back, boy, I'm comin straight outta Compton

 

[moraldeficiency]

Butthole Surfers>Ice Cube *you have chosen poorly, your chi is weak, come face me once you are prepared (but go read the loki mini before you do so you can get your head on straight about the best villian in the MU)*

 

[piccolo]

My chi broke the scouter while your's is still pushing 1,000.

Checklist for the day:

- Quick deposited paycheck into Mr. Popo's bank account
- Booty call with Bulma
- Resisted urge to make gay joke about butthole surfers
- Sent letter to comic readers illuminati requesting moraldefiencies demotion to "food service lackey".
- Received approval and commendation from Grand Wizard
- Bought Loki comic mini, set it on fire, and extinguished with urine
- Retrieved delicious hot pocket from microwave

All in all,

"I gotta say it was a good day."

 

[moraldeficiency]

Yeah, swing and a miss there (food service lackey, seriously?). Minus ten cool points for any dragon ball reference, you should have went with afro samurai or something good. And destroying that much ribic art is about the same travesty as killing a unicorn by anally raping it with a dead preserved jesus penis, in other words you're going to the michael bolton part of hell.

 

[The Geek Vault]

Wha..... I'm not even gonna ask how this happened.... Anyways I can't wait for next issue, I really hope they bring up that helmet that slapstick stole! I also really hop we don't lose all our scarlet spiders!

 

[moraldeficiency]

nah, the last one will stick, makes sense to clear them down, but even if not, it won't be like they couldn't just clone more. I think that helmet will come into play eventually but slapstick is acting less crazy currently so I doubt it'll be any time soon.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm glad we're down to just the MVP stand-in and one Scarlet Spider. It gives the remaining Spider a stronger backstory because he's lost his "brothers" and it keeps things from being so confusing with multiple Spiders everywhere.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Exactely add the normal inferiority complex of being a clone with survivors guilt, and just don't let him go emo and he'd have a good basis.