Discussion in 'DC Comics Films' started by Thread Manager, Feb 26, 2018.
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]527079[/split]
This is incredible news and I'm so down.
They're carving out a Batman cinematic universe no doubt.
What stories should they take inspiration from? Who should play Batgirl?
If the general audience doesn't realize this is a different Batgirl because they don't know the name Barbara, then it's going to look like WB learned nothing after BvS and are making Batgirl edgy by giving her a creepy mask and dark backstory. So they'll have to establish in their marketing that this is a different Batgirl while also establishing that people should care about this Batgirl.
And it's not a question of what can be done. Lots of things can be done, but that doesn't mean that they're all equally easy to do. If WB has trouble selling high profile characters like Batman and Superman because of quality issues, the solution isn't to favor obscure characters where the quality has to be that much higher to get audiences to care. People may or may not Batgirl's real name, but they know her basic costume. They know she's not a mute assassin with an abusive childhood. WB isn't in a position to be taking risks like making Ant-Man or Guardians of the Galaxy.
They've got to first get their best characters right before they can't start doing obscure characters.
I'm not understanding these MCU comparisons. So because Marvel made GOTG successful Cassandra should be Batgirl? What kind of logic is that?
For one thing its a Batgirl movie, so no matter who dons the costume they are automatically enjoying a higher listing than GOTG did. Cass may be a D lister but Batgirl isnt. So this argument falls apart completely.
Moreover Batgirl because of her higher status enjoys a certain perception. When people think of Batgirl something like Babs comes to their mind. A red headed wide eyed cheerful character.
Now imagine if they replaced that with an Asian mute who was borne of rape and was abused. Who wears a dark costume and is serious all the time. The DCEU brand will sink further. People will think they ruined Batgirl just to be edgy and show that Batgirl should be taken seriously.
I dont think this film will be happening anytime soon and tbh I dont really care. Id like to see a Batgirl film but Im not desperate for it. There are way more interesting projects that Im interested in WB/DC doing than this.
I perfectly understand why someone would prefer Cassie's Batgirl (she's a great character!), but you just can't deny that Babs' journey from bubbly Batman sidekick to wheelchair-bound genius leader of the Bird of Prey would make for one hell of a movie series.
Not that it matters anymore, because
Why DCs Batgirl Movie Wont Happen Anytime Soon
Very disappointing but not exactly surprising.
Actually, a Batman movie with Cassandra's Batgirl and Penguin as a child trafficker could be pretty ****ing dope now that I think about it.
I was really looking forward to this movie. More then any other DC movie. Sad that Whedon is not directing it.
I'm glad to see that this one (as a solo outing) is indefinitely on hold. It was, in my opinion, far too soon - and all because Whedon wanted it!
Ill be happy to see this whenever we get it. Would ideally see Babs first.
It's gonna be Babs first, assuming WB is serious about making any Batgirl film to begin with.
They've tended to go with the most familiar versions to the GA of their big screen DC characters. That's why they went with Dick Grayson in Batman Forever even though he'd long been out of the Robin role in the comics by 1995.
Even in Batman and Robin they named Batgirl Barbara though she wasn't a Gordon, because the name Barbara is closely identified with Batgirl to the GA. This is despite the fact that there wasn't a Batgirl named Barbara in the comics 1997 .
WB has tended to stick to the versions of these characters that the GA know more often than not.
I was never on board with the Batgirl. If they are still following whatever little continuity they had (and personally I don't mind if they still are-it's largely fine) a fully formed Batgirl has no place in that. Given multiple world ending events, if a Batgirl was active she had to show up or AT LEAST get a mention.
Um, are you implying that Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Cyborg, Flash and Mera are the only superheroes that currently exist in the DCEU?
No offense, but thats the most ridiculous argument Ive heard so far.
Who said otherwise?
And tell me, what about adapting another Batgirl is actually harder than doing Barbara?
So instead they should go ahead and ruin the Batgirl? The way youre presenting it (mind the phrasing), it sounds like a lose/lose situation.
Logic that you are, to be frank, not following.
1) I never said that it should be anyone other than Barbara.
2) What I have said, though, is that the other Batgirls shouldnt be disqualified from consideration simply because they arent Barbara. Why? Because lesser known characters are flourishing right now because of Marvel, who have proven time and time again that the key to success lies in making movies that audiences like. Not, necessarily, established brands.
So then does the reverse: it shouldnt matter whos under the mask if the Batgirl name is going to sell regardless.
Even if that were true, shes not so popular that itd be all that difficult to overcome.
Are we now going to pretend that adaptations dont pick and choose which elements to include or emphasize and often make tonal changes when and if necessary?
Ill ignore your presentation of the worst-case scenario and simply say that they could use Stephanie if they found Cassandras origin and personality too dark.
Well... At least in terms of those who are known to the initial team.
If world level events are going on, and you know people who can help, I'm pretty sure anyone with half a brain will assemble all the help they can get.
So unless they are radically changing Batgirl's character to someone who isn't Batgirl's protege I fully expected her to at least get a mention.
Up until recently, they kind of are though, aren't they?
Was it not referenced, or directly mentioned in a conversation between Bruce and Alfred that things started changing when Superman showed up? With all the tech, resources (etc) that Bruce has, you'd think he'd be more than aware of any other metahumans, Gods and/or Aliens residing on Earth, yet he isn't.
You can explain away the likes of the Amazonians and Atlantians (isolation), and you could explain away the likes of Martian Manhunter and Supergirl (if they exist within the DCU) as simply living civilian lives (although we would have to question why Kara didn't help Clark when he fought Zod; that was all over the news, and she's a reporter).
It would seem unlikely though that they (Bruce & Alfred) weren't remotely aware of other roaming metahumans.
So according to you they should also make a Batman film with Jean Paul Valley and a Robin film with Helena Wayne, D listers can be successful after all.
You cant do the reverse. Batgirl has been exposed to audiences across games, cartoons, animated films and a whole lot of other material. In all those cases Babs has been Batgirl. When there was no Batgirl in the comics Babs was Batgirl in BTAS/DCAU when Cass was Batgirl in the comics Babs was in The Batman cartoon. When Steph was Batgirl in the comics Babs was in Young Justice. So across almost a quarter of a century without being Batgirl in the comics Babs was Batgirl literally everywhere else. Cass and Steph only become Batgirls not because DC thought they were brilliant but because DC didn't want to undo The Killing Joke. There were attempts to bring Babs back all the way back in the late 90's and then around 52 and then Batman Reborn/R.I.P era and it just so miraculously happens that Cass was created in the late 90's, Kate Kane/Batwoman debuted in 52 while Steph became Batgirl after R.I.P..So Cass and Steph were never relevant to the equation, DC's decisions have always been Babs centric. I'd like to add another interesting thing, even when Babs is Oracle there's no other Batgirl. I give you the Arkham games, the Birds of Prey show and Beware the Batman animated show as examples.
Barbara is the archetype for Batgirl, as the concept is known to everyone short of a handful of Cass fans. Putting Cass in the suit is distorting that image of what DC wants Batgirl to be and how people percieve the character.
So want Cass to not be Cass? All right.
While Steph fits the archetype much better than Cass she runs in to the problem of irrelevance. Babs dad is Gordon and her love interest is Dick. Plus she ties to Huntress and Black Canary which can be used to launch BOP.
Steph's dad is a Z-list villain in a rogues gallery full of A-listers. Even if Cluematser by some divine miracle manages to make it to film he'll be that fodder who gets beaten in the opening 5 minutes of the film. There's no BOP for Steph and her boyfriend Tim Drake stands at the bottom when it comes to priority Robins while Dick is at the top.
So, you're saying she's definitely heterosexual?
Fair enough, but you know how shared universes work. Not every single character can appear in every movie. It's kind of like how War Machine was nowhere to be seen in Avengers.
That's true I guess, but it's nothing that can't be fixed with a good ol' retcon.
With all due respect: I dont have time to engage with you if youre going to be obtuse.
I obviously disagree.
Pretty sure I addressed the bulk of this already. Im not interested in repeating myself over and over, especially not on this topic.
This is what Im talking about. If youre going to respond to things I never wrote, your time would be better served arguing with someone else.
Maybe Whedon leaving was for all the best. This would be a prime film for the next Patty Jenkins to shape into a franchise.
I'm surprised Warners hasn't contracted another writer, like Geneva Robertson-Dworet or Nicole Perlman, to take a crack at a Batgirl script.
No offense, but this isn't an argument at all.
1. You've got to establish more backstory, which is unnecessary clutter while eliminating potential plotlines down the road unless you attempt a prequel. It was a mistake to start the series so late in Batman's run, and this is doubling down on that. Some of this is eliminated if you make this her origin story, but her origin story would involve Batman to a significant degree. If you make a story about Batman taking in a mute girl and making her his sidekick, what you end up with is a de facto Batman movie.
2. Her being both mute and masked for a large portion of the movie prevents a significant challenge to the viewers getting attached to her. When you look at stories that succeed at part of this (not the mask, and not really mute), well, they don't always have the less than talkative character as the protagonist, and some of them depend on them being rather young to draw viewer sympathy. Cassandra wasn't quite that young to start with. You could change that, but by that token you could also make changes to Barbara.
Another major aspect of stories that do this is the focus on a strong, relatable emotional element, specifically the forming of a major emotional bond between two characters that doesn't require much explanation because the character who doesn't talk isn't a position to explain. Since Cassandra's parents are a couple of a******s, the only way forward that I see is to introduce a teenage boy to act as an audience cypher, get drawn into everything, learn what's going on from the characters in the know, and fall in love with Cassandra (and vice versa). And you've got to balance it right so that it's still her movie, and she has to be a strong enough actress to pull it off.
It can be done, but they need to know what needs to be done and not assume that quiet characters just work because of Drive, etc., and then they need to execute it well. Drive and Logan are highly regarded movies, so them accomplishing something doesn't mean that it's easy and everyone should just make it happen. And if they do pull it off, rather than being seen as a refreshing take like semper makes it sound, it'll be accused of being a ripoff of
3. Selling a movie isn't just a matter of making a good movie. Studios make movies based on existing properties because the existence of a fanbase and general awareness make it easier to get people to watch. If you make a version that's unrecognizable as the character they know, then you need to depend more on them liking what they see enough to watch, anyway. All things being equal in terms of quality and quality of marketing, a Barbara movie would make more money than a Cassandra movie because that's the Batgirl people know.
No. If you try to do a lay-up in basketball and miss, you don't just give up because you'll never make a lay-up, but you also don't attempt three pointers on the basis that it makes no difference. Some shots are harder than others.
Stephanie would actually be easier to pull off than Cassandra, although I still wouldn't say it's the easiest way forward. However, if they jump over Barbara to do some other Batgirl, and it doesn't pan out, do they go back and try to do a prequel, knowing that if they ever do get Justice League happening she's out of the picture? Do they attempt some time travel shenanigans to fix it? If the best known, most popular version of a character is the original, it just seems self-explanatory to me to start with the original. People might point to Ant-Man, but Ant-Man isn't as big of a character. The reason Marvel let Edgar Wright mess around for so long is that they didn't need Ant-Man to begin with.
Not going to touch the Barbara/Cassandra/Stephanie conversation with a ten foot clown pole (Okay, so maybe I will; the other Batgirls could factor into sequels)...
...but did anyone actually think that even with Joss Whedon involved, assuming she's intended to be part of the DCEU, that we'd have seen BATGIRL before Reeve's Batman film?
I mean, it seems like people just assumed that BATGIRL and NIGHTWING were magically going to happen first, despite the fact that we heard development news about THE BATMAN long before these projects were ever on the radar.
Pot calling kettle black? Well if that isn't just ironic. Barbara wouldn't even have a solo title right now if it wasn't for Cassandra Cain proving the Batgirl name could sell! For the record none of the Barbara Batgirl titles have lasted as long or sold as well as Cassandra's! A big reason for that, is that she's just not all that interesting as Batgirl, but she is as Oracle.
And I'll go one further, if your "preferred" character has to have her successors completely buried and embargoed by management, to exist, then maybe she's not worth bothering with either.