Batman Forever gets unfairly paired with Batman and Robin

[Carusos Shades]

Like an anteater with a punctured snout it sucked badly.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Batman Forever is a million, trillion miles better then that debacle Batman & Robin. At least in Forever they tried to get the character of Bruce Wayne right.

 

[sarg2k]

I like Batman Forever and Batman and Robin

I was only a nipper when they came out but still hold a special place in my heart.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I remember when i went to see Batman & Robin when it first came out. I was only about 11 or summing. Anyway, i went out about half way through to the toilet, did my business and went back in. It was packed and i couldnt find where my mum and dad were so i just sat in the few empty seats at the back. It was weird though because what was on the screen i had already seen. I thought the projector messed up or summin. So there i was on my own for about 10 mins when i dad came in and sat next to me, he couldn't find my mum either. So we sat there and watched about 20 mins of it and then my dad realised we went into the wrong screen!!!! LOL. We went outside to find my mum in hysterics thinking i had been kidnapped!!! It was the cinemas fault though, the screens wern't numbered and they were right next to each other. We got refunds though!!

 

[frodawgg]

BF was BETTER than B&R, but it still sucked.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Batman Forever is interesting. On one hand it is a campy mess, more similar to Batman & Robin than the more serious Batman films. On the other hand, I felt it was the only film prior to Batman Begins to actually get the Batman character right. Flawed for sure, but the positives outweigh the negatives.

 

[Bruce Stark]

Jon Favreau was one of Bruce Waynes assistants in BF as well

Really? That's cool! In what scenes and where in those scenes is Jon Favreau?

 

[The Batkilt]

I don't think Batman Forever is anywhere near as bad as Batman & Robin overall. The main thing I dislike about B&R is just how blatantly, OTT it is with the homoeroticism. It's still evident in Forever between The Riddler and Two-Face but it's nowhere near the levels of the sequel.

For one thing there was more of an effort to develop the character of Bruce Wayne and dwelve into why he chooses to be Batman. It plays out as half-hearted in the film but then again a lot of it was cut from the final edit by WB, which itself has an impact on Batman & Robin. On the Batman, Yesterday, Today and Beyond boards someone recently posted a link of interviews from the cast of B&R to hype the film before it's release. In one George Clooney says something to the effect that everyone involved in the film felt it was time for Bruce to have come to terms with his parents' death. Which is pretty ridiculous, but it's not something I feel can be blamed on Schumacher. He does seem to genuinely be a fan of Batman and it was a central theme for his idea of Batman Forever - hell, it was behind the entire name of the film!

I think they handled Robin pretty well in this film. In total contrast from B&R he wasn't portrayed as being an idiot that needed Batman to save him. He was shown as being a competent sidekick and some of my favourite scenes from the film are between Bruce and Dick when they are arguing over Dick becoming Robin. The only things that take away from them are knowing that Val Kilmer could have done so much better, and that Chris O'Donnell just a) seemed a bit too old, even though Robin obviously had to be older in film and b) O'Donnell is nowhere near the actor Kilmer is. I guess Kilmer was as displeased with what was going on as a lot of people were. The most frustrating thing to me is that they handled Grayson/Robin fairly well here but it was one step forward and two steps back after B&R brought back the homoerotic levels to the Batman and Robin.

As for the handling of the villains? I quite liked Jim Carrey as The Riddler when I first watched it and to this day still think he did pretty well - but I don't like the way The Riddler was written as a character. It's more how I would have preferred to have seen The Joker to be honest. I didn't have any problems with the stalker aspect and quite like it, but Carrey's career since then suggests he would have been able to play The Riddler more serious if he was allowed to. As for Two-Face? Great introduction, but it goes downhill pretty quick. He came across more as being obsessive compulsive at times rather than having a split personality. Sugar & Spice just weren't needed and it was a huge waste considering who they had playing the parts.

One thing I think Schumacher nailed with both films that he was trying for was to literally bring a comic book to live with the costumes, colour scheme and overall decor. (Save for the nude statues, of course.) In that regard he did pretty well, and as someone else has posted in another discussion on these boards about Schumacher's flicks he may have had a different idea on how to make a comic book film.

Sorry for the disjointed ramblings!

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I like BF quite a bit and I always will, its one of the funnest of the Batman franchise to watch and just enjoy without worrying too much about plot and staying 100% true to the source material.

 

[the_scream]

I thought it was pretty much the same as B & R but watched it again today after not having seen it in ten years or so. Much better than I remember. I'd say, overall, it's a mixed bag:

1. Kilmer is a good Bruce Wayne. He's certainly got a dark, mysterious angle. Way better than Clooney.

2. Chris O'Donnell is actually likeable in this one and looks tough. In B & R, he's a one-dimensional, whiny punk. You just want to slap him.

3. The film has many character moments that aren't forced or interupted by neon lights. B & R have obligatory "serious" moments that seem really out of place especially after seeing Arnold driving around in his penis car.

4. Batman is still dark. Batman in B & R is terrible "hey Freeze, I'm Batman" (with a grin).

5. Robin's origin story is not too bad considering.

The film is undermined though:

1. Costumes are awful. Not just the nipple suits with molded muscles. Two-Face's costume is hideous. Carrey changes wardrobe more than Natalie Portman in Attack of the Clones. And he looks much less attractive.

2. The night scenes especially seem to be from a different film. All of a sudden, everyone is in costumes, neon lights everywhere, insane music, surreal, weird angles. Then, at day, everything is completely normal. The tone is just so uneven. Unfortunately, in B&R, they focus even more on this insanity.

3. The Riddler's scheme is just really bad. If the machine really increases intelligence, wouldn't he be unstoppable by the third act after absorbing everyone's IQ? I shouldn't bother analysing this though!

4. Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carrey ham it up so much that there is never a chance to breathe. Jones, in particular, is the worst character in the film and his make-up is garish and unconvincing.

5. They introduce the batwing and batboat only to blow them up in the next scene. Why? For toys?

6. They pretend to blow-up the batcave. Anyone who has seen a car explode at Universal studios will know that they didn't actually blow up the batmobile in this film. A few sparks and flames. That's all.

7. The characters are just stupid. Carrey basically acts like a psycho in front of Bruce and shortly afterwards they don't even suspect that he killed his boss? Then Bruce gets riddles and never once thinks the weirdo stalker guy from his work might be the culprit? Ok, again, these films are really not meant to be analysed I guess.

8. The sets look like sets. The batcave looks small and fake. The Riddler's lair is all smoke and mirrors. There is no functionality of anything. Bits and pieces exist in this film just to look good. Why does Robin have a trademark "R" on his chest and mask? To sell more Robin toys...? Why does Batman need to have a bat symbol on every single one of his bat tires? Why does every single vehicle have a giant flame and fluro lights? It's just overkill.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Your talking like it was actually Tommy Lees fault?! All the actors in that film were great, they performed what they were asked to do. So if there is anything wrong with their performances you need look no further than the Director and Co. I thought Tommy Lees delivery of that speech at the start was perfect, thats how Two-Face should be. Unfortunatly from then on it went down-hill into a Joker wannabee.

 

[The Batkilt]

5. They introduce the batwing and batboat only to blow them up in the next scene. Why? For toys?

I thought that was well known by now. Obviously it's a lot worse in Batman & Robin but Schumacher has openly admitted he was advised to make the films more family-friendly and marketable to children.

I genuinely believe that with less studio involvement Schumacher would have delivered Batman films that would have been much better received all-round. He seems to be a genuine fan of Batman and those films came across as if he was trying to bring the feel and colour of a comic book onto the screen. There'd still have been some level of homoeroticism though. And naked statues. They were all Schumacher.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

I think that other than Two-Face, I liked the movie a lot. I see how some drew comparisons to "Joker clones" in The Riddler and Two-Face, but I liked The Riddler a bit. If not a little too Carrey-ish, it was still fun to watch.

I agree that the pairing is unfair. There's no reason that this film should draw comparisons to B&R, as bad as B&R was.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

these arguments will go on forever, until the end of time, which is the funniest thing in the world.

 

[the_scream]

these arguments will go on forever, until the end of time, which is the funniest thing in the world.

Have you become the forum's commentator now?

 

[I Am The Knight]

these arguments will go on forever, until the end of time, which is the funniest thing in the world.

It's the saddest thing in the world, actually.

 

[Team Andino]

If I find Batman Forever on tv Ill watch it cause it entertains me but when I find Batman & Robin on tv I watch bits an pieces of it as I'll laugh at parts then change the channel cause of how ashamed I feel.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Have you become the forum's commentator now?

Yes I have I suppose, and Ill keep going as long as Im alive, theres alot of people that have to get used to that.

 

[the_scream]

Your talking like it was actually Tommy Lees fault?!

Not really. It was just an observation. I believe Jones to be a fine actor so I don't blame him for his appalling performance. He didn't even really want to do it anyway.

 

[the_scream]

I thought that was well known by now. Obviously it's a lot worse in Batman & Robin but Schumacher has openly admitted he was advised to make the films more family-friendly and marketable to children.

Yes, but this doesn't change the fact either.

I genuinely believe that with less studio involvement Schumacher would have delivered Batman films that would have been much better received all-round. He seems to be a genuine fan of Batman and those films came across as if he was trying to bring the feel and colour of a comic book onto the screen. There'd still have been some level of homoeroticism though. And naked statues. They were all Schumacher.

Perhaps. He's a good director but, then again, a lot of the really bad ideas (e.g. nipples etc) were his idea and he has stated that ultimately, he takes responsibility for the films. He keeps talking about Batman: Year One in hindsight, stating that he would have preferred to make this kind of film. I don't know how serious he really is about this because it just sounds like something you say to fans to try and convince them you were on their side all along.

Overall, I think Batman Forever is a lot better than I remember. Miles better than B & R. If they had toned everything, and everyone, down by half, the film could have been one of the better Batman films. To me the glaring contrast between the crazy trumpet/neon fueled nights with crazy costumes and designs and the very normal daylight scenes is the most obvious flaw this film has. It wants to be normal and serious in one scene but then becomes a bizarre, twisted vision in another.

 

[Team Andino]

One thing that ALWAYS bothered me is when Two-Face and Riddler are going on a crime spree and then at one place there robbing Riddler asked Two-Face to show him how to punch a guy. They then walk up to 2 guards in security jackets who just stand there as people are being robbed and Two Face knocks out the 1st guy and Riddler punches the 2nd guy and not only does it seem to not hurt him but he does NOTHING about it. Why the hell where they guards not doing anything?!?!

 

[the_scream]

One thing that ALWAYS bothered me is when Two-Face and Riddler are going on a crime spree and then at one place there robbing Riddler asked Two-Face to show him how to punch a guy. They then walk up to 2 guards in security jackets who just stand there as people are being robbed and Two Face knocks out the 1st guy and Riddler punches the 2nd guy and not only does it seem to not hurt him but he does NOTHING about it. Why the hell where they guards not doing anything?!?!

Yeah, I noticed that last time too. They look like mannequins!

 

[TMC1982]

I don't think Batman Forever is anywhere near as bad as Batman & Robin overall. The main thing I dislike about B&R is just how blatantly, OTT it is with the homoeroticism. It's still evident in Forever between The Riddler and Two-Face but it's nowhere near the levels of the sequel.

For one thing there was more of an effort to develop the character of Bruce Wayne and dwelve into why he chooses to be Batman. It plays out as half-hearted in the film but then again a lot of it was cut from the final edit by WB, which itself has an impact on Batman & Robin. On the Batman, Yesterday, Today and Beyond boards someone recently posted a link of interviews from the cast of B&R to hype the film before it's release. In one George Clooney says something to the effect that everyone involved in the film felt it was time for Bruce to have come to terms with his parents' death. Which is pretty ridiculous, but it's not something I feel can be blamed on Schumacher. He does seem to genuinely be a fan of Batman and it was a central theme for his idea of Batman Forever - hell, it was behind the entire name of the film!

I think they handled Robin pretty well in this film. In total contrast from B&R he wasn't portrayed as being an idiot that needed Batman to save him. He was shown as being a competent sidekick and some of my favourite scenes from the film are between Bruce and Dick when they are arguing over Dick becoming Robin. The only things that take away from them are knowing that Val Kilmer could have done so much better, and that Chris O'Donnell just a) seemed a bit too old, even though Robin obviously had to be older in film and b) O'Donnell is nowhere near the actor Kilmer is. I guess Kilmer was as displeased with what was going on as a lot of people were. The most frustrating thing to me is that they handled Grayson/Robin fairly well here but it was one step forward and two steps back after B&R brought back the homoerotic levels to the Batman and Robin.

As for the handling of the villains? I quite liked Jim Carrey as The Riddler when I first watched it and to this day still think he did pretty well - but I don't like the way The Riddler was written as a character. It's more how I would have preferred to have seen The Joker to be honest. I didn't have any problems with the stalker aspect and quite like it, but Carrey's career since then suggests he would have been able to play The Riddler more serious if he was allowed to. As for Two-Face? Great introduction, but it goes downhill pretty quick. He came across more as being obsessive compulsive at times rather than having a split personality. Sugar & Spice just weren't needed and it was a huge waste considering who they had playing the parts.

One thing I think Schumacher nailed with both films that he was trying for was to literally bring a comic book to live with the costumes, colour scheme and overall decor. (Save for the nude statues, of course.) In that regard he did pretty well, and as someone else has posted in another discussion on these boards about Schumacher's flicks he may have had a different idea on how to make a comic book film.

Sorry for the disjointed ramblings!

At least "Batman Forever" gave us an excuse to parade Drew Barrymore in white lingerie.

 

[marukisu]

...

 

[Gexmeister]

Actually, the best scenes in Batman Forever were the ones that were cut, the one with the giant bat, etc. But one thing I like that they didn't show in either B89 or Returns(my favourite batmanfilm actually) was that they showed Bruce as a businessman.