Batman Forever

[Two-Face]

Yeah she was hot IN BF.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Yeah she was hot IN BF.

What when wrong?

 

[david icke]

What when wrong?

Tom Cruise cut off her supply of Scientology anti-aging serum, but I kidman, kidman still looks great. She has aged real well, I think that Scientology serum stays in your system for a while, think it's called Xanadau's Xfoliating cream, not avaliable in shops...on this planet.

Anyway, Batman Forever is the 3rd best Batman movie ever made, that is just the way it is , shumacher kicked Burton's ass with that one, the main reason for it's sucess? The inclusion of Robin that opened up a good dynamic...duo duo here i come an i wanna go home.

 

[Bat Attack]

Tom Cruise cut off her supply of Scientology anti-aging serum, but I kidman, kidman still looks great. She has aged real well, I think that Scientology serum stays in your system for a while, think it's called Xanadau's Xfoliating cream, not avaliable in shops...on this planet.

 

[El Payaso]

Tom Cruise cut off her supply of Scientology anti-aging serum, but I kidman, kidman still looks great. She has aged real well, I think that Scientology serum stays in your system for a while, think it's called Xanadau's Xfoliating cream, not avaliable in shops...on this planet.

Anyway, Batman Forever is the 3rd best Batman movie ever made, that is just the way it is , shumacher kicked Burton's ass with that one, the main reason for it's sucess? The inclusion of Robin that opened up a good dynamic...duo duo here i come an i wanna go home.

The villiains sucked (except if you like Jim Carrey), the nipples and homoerotic elements were there, the music was generic. How did Schumacher kick anyone's ass with BF?

Sure, it's fun and certain aspects of Bruce's psyche were nicely explored (nicely as in not too deeply but not too superficially) but all in all it had a lot of flaws. The inclusion of Robin opened the debacle; the only conlcusion they reached was that Batgirl was the next natural step.

 

[david icke]

The villiains sucked (except if you like Jim Carrey), the nipples and homoerotic elements were there, the music was generic. How did Schumacher kick anyone's ass with BF?

I liked Carrey as the Riddler, he was having a ball and turned on the bad guy juice when needed. Two-Face had his moments, he does not annoy me as much as DeVito's Penguin, who does my head in to an extent, although i appreciate the performance.

I did not notice the nipples, and the bat-suit is just as 'homo-erotic' as the one Keaton wears in 89. Nothing wrong with a bit of homoerotism anyway, as long as the two guys are consenting crimefighters and get the job done before sliding down the bat-poles later.

I much more enjoyed the team up between Two-face and Riddler, and as someone pointed out earlier, Chris Wallace i think, they actually had a scheme , a viable plan and partenrship that benefited both of them. I must admit, I never considered that so much when comparing it to the Penguin /Catwoman team up.

Also, I have always prefered Kilmer's BW/BM to Keatons. Keaton is an interesting Bruce Wayne, but he does not feel too Bruce Wayne to me really. Kilmer felt more like the one from the books i read growing up, and that went a long way in my enjoyment, I had wanted to see that guy onscreen.

I have said it before, but the psycho revenge killer aspect, esp in 89, always annoyed me, and I did not feel that was Batman.

Also, there was much more of Batman in action, and he felt like a more physical presence.
I prefer the action scenes for the most part over the Burton's, it had some classic momenst I had wanted to see onscreen, a gang running away at the sight of Batman, a superhero fighting in his civvies(I loved the whole Day-glo gang scene), and both Two-Face action scenes had great imagery, batman on the face of the copter, and later, emerging from the flames.

All these things added up for me to a much more enjoyable experience.

Sure, it's fun and certain aspects of Bruce's psyche were nicely explored (nicely as in not too deeply but not too superficially) but all in all it had a lot of flaws. The inclusion of Robin opened the debacle; the only conlcusion they reached was that Batgirl was the next natural step.

I am only taking this one into consideration, the enjoyment i got from that, not where it lead to in B&R, which was too take crappy aspects and overdo them(the day-glo colour scheme for instance), and do a re-tread watered down story of a stray teenager becoming part of the Batman family.

edit: Honestly, once BM became a machine gun shooting, bomb dropping killer in 89, it was a major flaw for me and depressed me that they had done this with the character onscreen, it was a much bigger flaw for me than anything in BF, as I no longer felt I was watching Batman at that point. And i had been waiting on that movie all my life, it was disapointing, but i still loved a lot about it. The drive back to the batcave is still one of my all time fav movie scenes.
Take the opening scene in Burton's, that is perfect, the crooks are talking about him killing them off, but he does not, he puts the fear of god into them and then leaves them for the cops. that felt like Batman.

 

[Spoonman]

The villiains sucked (except if you like Jim Carrey), the nipples and homoerotic elements were there, the music was generic. How did Schumacher kick anyone's ass with BF?

Sure, it's fun and certain aspects of Bruce's psyche were nicely explored (nicely as in not too deeply but not too superficially) but all in all it had a lot of flaws. The inclusion of Robin opened the debacle; the only conlcusion they reached was that Batgirl was the next natural step.

Generic music? Funny I find it the total oppossite, to me its highly memorable, I really like the music in BF, to each its own I guess...

And I won't say it kicks Burton's ass..no way, but Batman Forever as flawed as it is, is a movie I really enjoy and at least has aspects that I like (already mentioned by some other posters), now B&R I think the only positive that I find is the Alfred and Bruce scenes..they are surprisingly well crafted, but sadly that's all

I would have loved to see Kilmer as Batman again in some other shape or form, but I'm glad he pulled out of B&R since not even him could've saved such POS. People often mention Keaton for a DKR film, but what about Kilmer? isn't he approaching his 50's already?

 

[Two-Face]

Yeah but Kilmer is fat now.

 

[mikey1974]

well,to be fair,Bob Kane had Bats as a killer in the early stories...i remember him shooting people,he knocked one criminal off the top of a tall building,and even hung one and dragged the body via the batcopter/plane/whatever it was!

the Joker also initially died in his first story,having been shot in the chest...a later reprinting changed it,and added dialogue that he wasn't dead from the wound,just gravely injured...

so,initially,Bats started out as a killer...and i think this was part of Burton's plan,since he was showing the early days of Batman's war on crime...

 

[Bat Attack]

Yeah but Kilmer is fat now.

I just looked at a recent picture of Val...god damn he is huge.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I think Batmans theme in Forever is pretty bad ass. It's more bombastic and not as broody as Burtons but it's still a great theme tune.

 

[El Payaso]

Generic music? Funny I find it the total oppossite, to me its highly memorable, I really like the music in BF, to each its own I guess...

I never said it wasn't memorable. By generic I mean that it could have been applied to a number of characters whereas Elfman's theme screams just Batman.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I never said it wasn't memorable. By generic I mean that it could have been applied to a number of characters whereas Elfman's theme screams just Batman.

I neither completely agree nor completely disagree with this. ^

 

[Two-Face]

I just looked at a recent picture of Val...god damn he is huge.

Yep, If he was gonna do TDKR movie he would have to go back to gym and lose some pounds but I don't think he'll will with a guy in his age.

I prefer Michael Keaton anyway if we want other Batman actors to play Dark Knight again.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I doubt either of them will ever return to the cave.

 

[david icke]

well,to be fair,Bob Kane had Bats as a killer in the early stories...i remember him shooting people,he knocked one criminal off the top of a tall building,and even hung one and dragged the body via the batcopter/plane/whatever it was!

the Joker also initially died in his first story,having been shot in the chest...a later reprinting changed it,and added dialogue that he wasn't dead from the wound,just gravely injured...

so,initially,Bats started out as a killer...and i think this was part of Burton's plan,since he was showing the early days of Batman's war on crime...

Yeah, i am aware of this, but what I meant was that there is a difference between the very early Batman who killed folk while in the midst of fighting crime, and one who goes out with the express intention to kill someone for revenge, ie when he went after the joker and his goons after finding out the joker killed his parents, just turned him into yet another revenge movie character.

Another thing I liked about the riddler and Two-Face in BF is that they seemed to actually becomes friends and enjoyed each others company. You go from Two-Face being pissed at Riddler, and Riddler taking the piss out of him, to Two-Face showing him 'how to punch a guy', to them having a right good laugh watching the dvd revealing Batman's secret ID, and then it gets to the point where the Riddler is able to persuade Two-Face not to kill BM rightaway.

 

[TMC1982]

Yeah, i am aware of this, but what I meant was that there is a difference between the very early Batman who killed folk while in the midst of fighting crime, and one who goes out with the express intention to kill someone for revenge, ie when he went after the joker and his goons after finding out the joker killed his parents, just turned him into yet another revenge movie character.

Another thing I liked about the riddler and Two-Face in BF is that they seemed to actually becomes friends and enjoyed each others company. You go from Two-Face being pissed at Riddler, and Riddler taking the piss out of him, to Two-Face showing him 'how to punch a guy', to them having a right good laugh watching the dvd revealing Batman's secret ID, and then it gets to the point where the Riddler is able to persuade Two-Face not to kill BM rightaway.

That's one element of the Schumacher movies that I liked - Batman not being so blatantly blood thirsty. While the revenge aspect makes up a portion of the Batman persona, that's really isn't entirely or number one in Bruce Wayne's agenda. To me, Bruce Wayne becomes Batman because he simply doesn't like what's going on in his city (with all of the crime and corruption). Probably the biggest mistake that Tim Burton ever made when it came to Batman was not really thinking ahead. If Bruce Wayne finds out and manages to defeat whomever killed his parents, then there's a great deal of finality being brought onto the Batman psyche.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

If Bruce Wayne finds out and manages to defeat whomever killed his parents, then there's a great deal of finality being brought onto the Batman psyche.

He did so in the comics.

 

[david icke]

That's one element of the Schumacher movies that I liked - Batman not being so blatantly blood thirsty. While the revenge aspect makes up a portion of the Batman persona, that's really isn't entirely or number one in Bruce Wayne's agenda. To me, Bruce Wayne becomes Batman because he simply doesn't like what's going on in his city (with all of the crime and corruption). Probably the biggest mistake that Tim Burton ever made when it came to Batman was not really thinking ahead. If Bruce Wayne finds out and manages to defeat whomever killed his parents, then there's a great deal of finality being brought onto the Batman psyche.

He did so in the comics

Yeah, but what I think what TMC is saying, is that in the first Burton movie there was such a focus on Batman going after his parent's killer that a general audience could get the sense that the main focus of his mission was to hunt down and get revenge on the killer's of his parents. Like Charles Bronson in Death Wish, he kills a lot of scumbags , but his main focus was to track down who attacked his family.

That was another thing I did not like about the movie, he should have just been going after the Joker because the Joker was a murdering nut, that was reason enough.

 

[El Payaso]

Yeah, but what I think what TMC is saying, is that in the first Burton movie there was such a focus on Batman going after his parent's killer that a general audience could get the sense that the main focus of his mission was to hunt down and get revenge on the killer's of his parents. Like Charles Bronson in Death Wish, he kills a lot of scumbags , but his main focus was to track down who attacked his family.

That was another thing I did not like about the movie, he should have just been going after the Joker because the Joker was a murdering nut, that was reason enough.

It was tremendously clear throughout B89 that Batman was NOT tracking down his parents' killer so that was NOT the focus of the movie.

We never see him doing a special investigation about it, just revisiting the press about his parents death night because he simply can't stop thinking about it. It is what keeps him breathing.

And then, by mere chance, he listens to Jack Napier's sentence (Have you ever dance...?) which makes him realize that Napier was the killer.

Before that haphazard event Batman is after any criminal he can stop. Mugglers, gangsters, you name it. He was fighting all criminals, not going after just one. So much that even after the Joker's dead, he promises the cityy to keep fighting crime. And thus it wasn't a matter of revenge only.

 

[david icke]

It was tremendously clear throughout B89 that Batman was NOT tracking down his parents' killer so that was NOT the focus of the movie.

We never see him doing a special investigation about it, just revisiting the press about his parents death night because he simply can't stop thinking about it. It is what keeps him breathing.

And then, by mere chance, he listens to Jack Napier's sentence (Have you ever dance...?) which makes him realize that Napier was the killer.

Before that haphazard event Batman is after any criminal he can stop. Mugglers, gangsters, you name it. He was fighting all criminals, not going after just one. So much that even after the Joker's dead, he promises the cityy to keep fighting crime. And thus it wasn't a matter of revenge only.

Yeah, I understand that, but the focus of the movie does change when the killer of his parents is revealed. Batman's methods change and the focus of the movie is no longer on stopping crooks but going after his parent's killer. Batman no longer scares and leaves crooks for the cops, he blows them up and shoots machine guns at them.
Essentially it changes Batman's mission to a personal murderous vendetta.
I was mainly meaning that an audience who were not familar with Batman could go away with the wrong impression of him, like he puts his thirst for vengeance over anything else, and that the hunt for his parent's killer is paramount to the reason he began his mission.
I know we get the other stuff, but it's still a large focus that in turn changes the character into something more common.

 

[Bat Attack]

I doubt either of them will ever return to the cave.

Me too.

 

[H.A.R.D.A.C.]

Okay.

Your parents are murdered by an unknown killer. You make a vow to protect the city from crime and make sure that other people never experience the same life changing event that you did. You train for years, discipline, physical, mental etc and you fight your war against crime.

THEN you learn that your murdering arch enemy was the one who brutally murdered your parents in front of you with absolutely no remorse and ruined your life. The sole cause for all your torment and angst.

What are you going to do? Even Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins set out to kill Joe Chill and didn't accomplish it BECAUSE someone else beat him to it. Had Falcone's hitman, er hitwoman not killed Chill you can bet that Wayne would have.

What did you guys expect Batman to do in the 1989 film, not tell the Joker that he killed his parents, let him walk away and continue to escape each time? No.

This is why it's best for the murderer to remain unknown to Bruce for the rest of his life. A "mistake" that both Batman and Batman Begins made. No Jack Napier, no Joe Chill. A random and desparate monster that Wayne will never encounter again but the driving force and face of crime.

 

[[A]]

What are you going to do? Even Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins set out to kill Joe Chill and didn't accomplish it BECAUSE someone else beat him to it. Had Falcone's hitman, er hitwoman not killed Chill you can bet that Wayne would have

Eh, he probaly would've chicken out the lat second -- because killing is wrong, blah-blah-blah. Can you imagine fandom going nuts over Bats killing someone? Ok, that wasn't Bats--just young Bruce.. but still.



He would've become The Punisher..

 

[H.A.R.D.A.C.]

Eh, he probaly would've chicken out the lat second -- because killing is wrong, blah-blah-blah.

Bull. His intent was to blow Chill away. You can even see it in his eyes. His plan was to murder chill in cold blood (no pun intended!), in the presence of the public. He displays tremendous satisfaction in watching him die too and his only regret was not being able to kill Chill. He expresses this to Rachel after all.

Can you imagine fandom going nuts over Bats killing someone? Ok, that wasn't Bats--just young Bruce.. but still.

Yeah, good thing he didn't. He wanted to and was close but didn't. Had the hitwoman waited there would be no Batman. Wayne would go straight to jail or end up being just as bad as the villians he would have eventually fought had he not killed Chill. Not being able to kill him solidifies Batman's ONE rule, not killing and further grounds his hatred for guns.

As far as the Keaton 1989 Batman goes I don't remember him specifically taking anyone out BUT the Joker and his killer thug in the cathedral, and rightfully so. Did he have live ammo in his Batwing guns or were they rubber bullets? Who knows.

We'd all kill The Joker if we were in Batman's shoes and we might possibly kill his thugs if they threatened our survival and were sided with the man that killed our family.

The only time I despise the whole killing thing in the films is with Batman Returns, ala placing a bomb on a man chest, smiling and blowing him to bits.

I like Batman's one rule in the Nolan films but I also like the "justifiable murder" aspect of Batman 1989. What are you going to do?