Batman killed Two-Face...

[Jick]

if I ask someone to jump a bridge, and he jumps and falls and dies...doesn't mean I killed him. it was his choice.
now if a push him...it's something totally different.

 

[Two-Face]

Not Burton's Batman.



Yes we will.

Batman was fully aware of that precipice below them. Any little imbalance means death.

Not only that but Batman was able to save both Robin and Chase. Conscious of this he didn't move a finger when he triggered Harvey's fallen.



How? Ra's doesn't have the memory fabric cape.



Once again, Batman could have saved him AFTER he started to fall.







It is if you know the person's imbalance happens above a precipice and it is if you can stop that fallen you triggered yourself, but you decide not to do a thing.



Imbalance is not idiocy.



Just the franchise was killed.



I totally agree.

Yeah Batman could have used batarang.

 

[El Payaso]

if I ask someone to jump a bridge, and he jumps and falls and dies...doesn't mean I killed him. it was his choice.
now if a push him...it's something totally different.

As it is what Batman did here. He didn't ask Harvey to jump, he tricked him to make him fall. He "pushed" him without physicall contact.

 

[Jick]

As it is what Batman did here. He didn't ask Harvey to jump, he tricked him to make him fall. He "pushed" him without physicall contact.

it's the contrary. yeah, Batman tricked him, but if he had menaced to attack Harvey, this one would make a step behind and then he'd fall. then we could say that he "pushed". just because he tricked, doesn't mean he killed.
Harvey died because he was an idiot and was obsessed with his coin. he made the wrong decision of catching it instead of staying put.

 

[El Payaso]

it's the contrary. yeah, Batman tricked him, but if he had menaced to attack Harvey and this one falls, then we could say that he "pushed". just because he tricked, doesn't mean he killed.

Yes. It's not "just because he tricked him," but because he tricked him taking advantage of a complusion he knows Harvey can't control.

And he did above a precipice.

And he did nothing to save him as he did with Robin and Chase.

All of that means he killed him.

Harvey died because he was an idiot and was obsessed with his coin. he made the wrong decision of catching it instead of staying put.

That's like saying that a schizophrenic is an idiot for hearing voices. The schizophrenic as the obssessive compulsive can't "make decisions" about what they feel they have to do. Specially about reflexes. Harvey was not in capacity of deciding whether to go for the coins or not.

Harvey Dent's evil personality was not a voluntary decision to practise evil. It's the product of a trauma he wasn't responsible for. He didn'0t decide to be Two-Face as he can't decide to lose his affection for his coin just like that.

Therefore Batman took advantage of his illness to make him fall to his death, and he didn't do anything to save him.

 

[Jick]

and because he didn't do anything to save him doesn't mean he killed him.
it wasn't Batman's fault that Harvey was like that. he made Harvey make a choice. the destiny of Harvey...what would happen next was in Dent's hands.
man, I keep what I said. we have different points of view. I can't agree that he killed Harvey.

 

[RobC]

He didn't kill Harvey at all, he didn't physically push him, but throwing the coins in the air led to him dying.

Manslaughter.

Simple as.

 

[The Guard]

Some of you don't seem to understand the nature of killing. Directly harming someone to the point where they die is killing them. Offerinig them a choice to do something that then leads to their death is not.

If you hand someone syringe, and they inject themselves, and they overdose and die, you did not kill that person.

Imbalance is not idiocy.

No, but being stupid enough to reach for one coin amidst dozens at the risk of your own personal safety is.

Yes. It's not "just because he tricked him," but because he tricked him taking advantage of a complusion he knows Harvey can't control.

But Batman didn't throw the coins down. He threw them up. Harvey had ever opportunity not to reach out for one coin in the midst of dozens. It is Harvey's fault, regardless of his mental state, that he chose to do so.

And he did above a precipice.

So? Batman may well have known that Two-Face would reach out, and lose his balance, and fall. But he did not FORCE Harvey to do so.

And he did nothing to save him as he did with Robin and Chase.

That simply means that he didn't save Two-Face. Not saving someone is not the same thing as killing him. And how do we do Batman had any batarangs and lines left after he used so many to save Robin and Chase?

All of that means he killed him.

No, it really doesn't.

That's like saying that a schizophrenic is an idiot for hearing voices.

Of course not, but if all they are doing is hearing voices, then a schizophrenic would be an idiot for ACTING on those voices in a way that jeapordizes their personal safety or someone else's.

The schizophrenic as the obssessive compulsive can't "make decisions" about what they feel they have to do. Specially about reflexes. Harvey was not in capacity of deciding whether to go for the coins or not.

That's debatable. If the man can flip a coin and not like the outcome and flip it again, he can damn well realize he'd fall to his death if he tried to catch dozens of coins that were out of reach.

Harvey Dent's evil personality was not a voluntary decision to practise evil. It's the product of a trauma he wasn't responsible for. He didn'0t decide to be Two-Face as he can't decide to lose his affection for his coin just like that.

But he did decide to step off that ledge.

Therefore Batman took advantage of his illness to make him fall to his death, and he didn't do anything to save him.

"Make him fall to his death". As if Batman could know, with certainty, that Harvey would not only reach for the coins, but pitch forward and fall to his death.

And let's not even argue the morality of the situation. In context, is what Batman did really wrong? Remember, this isn't the "I will never kill" Batman of the comics.

 

[Jick]

^^that's what I'm saying

 

[The Guard]

I'm pretty sure that would never be deemed manslaughter, given the situation. Especially since Batman was acting in self defense.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

The way I always saw it was that Batman killed Two-Face basically to save Robin from doing so. He probably wasn't aware that Robin had come around earlier, deciding to spare Harvey.

So in his mind, Robin and Two-Face were still on a collision course. He intervened and, since his soul was already darkened due to his history of bloodshed, he killed Two-Face to spare Robin from going down the same path.

That doesn't justify it though, for me. Just like any of the other direct and indirect Bat-kills in the movies.

BTW - I haven't seen it in forever, and I'm pretty sure it was Robin & Batgirl who dealt with him (while Batman was busy with Freeze), but wasn't Bane basically left to die?

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Burton Batman would've thrown a grenade at him

Batman Forever is so MUCH better than Burton's movies!

 

[The Joker]

Batman Forever is so MUCH better than Burton's movies!

In your opinion!

 

[RobC]

I'm pretty sure that would never be deemed manslaughter, given the situation. Especially since Batman was acting in self defense.

Not self defense, he still had a 50% chance of living if Harvey had flipped the coin.

But I agree with all your other arguments, Batman didn't kill him, he manufactured the circumstances in which his death occured.

 

[Bat Attack]

Burton Batman would've thrown a grenade at him

Batman Forever is so MUCH better than Burton's movies!

I'm sorry that you feel that way. To each their own.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

Harvey died because neither Batman nor Robin chose to dive after him and catch him. They just stood there and watched. Harvey slipping off the beam may not have been Batmans plan, but being the keen mind that he's suppose to have, he should have contiplated that scenario. Therefore having a plan to be able to save Harvey from falling to his death. Thats what Clooney would have done. Face it, Clooney truly believed in the redemption of a villain, thats why even when Freeze was defeated he chose to save him, not leave him there to boil. Kilmer was more or less like, screw it, fall you 2 faced thug!!

 

[RobC]

Clooney is the best Batman.

No wait, what I meant to say was...

Kilmer rescued Edward Nygma, a man who's entire evil plan as the reason for the killing of people/kidnapping of Chase and Robin.

Plus, he wanted to help Harvey in the beginning.

But you do make an interesting point, Clooney saved Freeze. But he also put Ivy in a cell with him.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

I'm sorry that you feel that way. To each their own.

It's not that easy for me! Sometimes I like Batman (1989) really a lot! But Batman Returns is just BAD! That's a bizarro Silver Age Batman, like they took Adam West's Batman in multiplied it with -1!

 

[Bat Attack]

It's not that easy for me! Sometimes I like Batman (1989) really a lot! But Batman Returns is just BAD! That's a bizarro Silver Age Batman, like they took Adam West's Batman in multiplied it with -1!

heh, I love both Burton bat-films. batman forever is okay. B&R flat out sucks.

 

[Two-Face]

It's not that easy for me! Sometimes I like Batman (1989) really a lot! But Batman Returns is just BAD! That's a bizarro Silver Age Batman, like they took Adam West's Batman in multiplied it with -1!

I thought Batman & Robin was that.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

I thought Batman & Robin was that.

no there they subtracted 1,000,000.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

Long live Clooney-Bat!!

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Like people said.... in 89, Batman could not have predicted that the gargoyle would break away. But he wasn't going to be sad over the Joker's death, either.

In Forever, I think it's more that he did it to spare Grayson from killing Dent. But Batman had not realized that Dick had already overcome that. But still, a preventative measure. To make sure Dick NEVER had to live with murder on his soul. Bruce already had it on his conscience. Better not to let Dick blacken his soul with it if he ever relented on his "kill Harvey" stance.

That, and Dent knew Bruce was Batman. There's a liability.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I always wondered....if Two Face is dead....why are his clothes in Arkham two years later?

 

[DocLathropBrown]

I like Bale not saving people, letting them die, shows he's not a ***** like Tobey Maguire.

Yes, Tobey Maguire is a ***** because he acts like a real human being with emotions.

Heaven forbid we make a superhero act like a human being.

How childish. Sam Raimi's genius was all but wasted on you people.