Batman R.I.P.

[CrimsonMist]

Naughty!

Sorry. I hate the idea of Joker and Batman being some sort of yin and yang. Batman and Joker shouldn't be arch enemies or have any relationship or anything. It's worse than stories of Bruce having the "bat totem spirit protecting him ooo". I really enjoyed Batman just tossing the Joker into the trash in Batman and Son. Batman and Joker should both share one obsession: crime.

Valid criticism, i'll give you that. But the relationship between Batman & The Joker is there. It's been firmly established. To simply just get rid of it would be stupid, i think. I just like how The Joker always runs circles around Batman, and there's nothing Batman can do about it.

But that's not at all what i was trying to say with my idea. It's basis is this: The Joker is psychotic. How many people has he killed? Alot. Regardless of the "yin & yang" thing he shares with Batman, The Joker has killed many people. And when he's locked up, he's deemed insane, not responsible his actions, kills his prison guards, escapes, and kills another ridiculous amount of people. And the process repeats. Anyone on the good guy side of the law knows that this is a problem. Something needs to be done about him, no? And with what's established already, The Joker is responsible for the death of Jason Todd, the crippling of Barbara Gordon, the murder of Sarah Essen, and if you wanna, by some stretch, responsible for Silver St. Cloud leaving Bruce(if you think about it, if The Joker wasn't up to what he was up to at that exact moment, Silver wouldn't have seen Batman fighting him, and everything would have been alright).

Again, i said i've been reading ALOT of Punisher books lately, so it's affected how i look at the Batman/Joker thing. How can you just let someone like the Joker go to prison for killing many people, escape, kill many more people, and simply go "I know i shouldn't, but he's crazy. He's not responsible for what he does!"?

I think it would tell an interesting story. And i know everyone is going to say "NO! Batman should NEVER kill", but think about it from a story telling perspective. What would Batman do if he killed THE JOKER? Not The Penguin, or The Riddler or Mr. Freeze, but The Joker? If Grant Morrison can establish that Batman drove Joe Chill to suicide and get away with it(because i didn't see many complaints about that. And if you put that issue in continuity with "Year One", Batman's already established to an extent in that issue, AFTER stating in Year One, that he wouldn't kill), i would like to see a story told in which Batman kills The Joker(of course, he would have to do something horrible...again), because i think the story would be interesting to tell.

 

[rpenguin]

I see where you're coming from, but it's just an arguable thing. It's never really been explained why Batman refuses to kill or use a gun. My best explanation?

On using a gun
-it's just too easy, in regards to reminding Bruce of how mindless thugs are and how effortlessly his parents were killed. there's a better way with more discipline.

On killing
-I think it would completely sever his relationship with Gordon, one of his best friends. If he started taking lives, I think Gordon would come down on him hard.
-The JLA might really see him as a loose cannon and question his state of mind

That was the rationality behind it and how the world might respond, as far as the psychology:
It's really hard to establish exactly how moral anyone is. I'd say Batman strongly believes in fairness and balance, insomuch as never crossing the line of becoming a thoughtless thug. It fits a lot with a child-like persona; one that had his parents murdered and spent his life becoming a figure trying to bring balance by waging a war on crime. He doesn't just cross the line because balance is discipline and he has to restrain himself.

If he ended up crossing the line and killing Joker, I don't see him mourning the loss at all. Just dealing with the repercussions of friends and family (which would probably be supportive). I also don't see crime diminishing in Gotham. The DCU is simply a world full of costumed heroes and villains, and Gotham is the biggest city. It just wouldn't stop.

It appears I went on a tangent, but I felt it was important to establish the Batman character and in doing so it would reflect my opinion that Batman doesn't truly obsess over the Joker, but over fairness.

 

[CrimsonMist]

I see where you're coming from, but it's just an arguable thing. It's never really been explained why Batman refuses to kill or use a gun. My best explanation?

On using a gun
-it's just too easy, in regards to reminding Bruce of how mindless thugs are and how effortlessly his parents were killed. there's a better way with more discipline.

On killing
-I think it would completely sever his relationship with Gordon, one of his best friends. If he started taking lives, I think Gordon would come down on him hard.
-The JLA might really see him as a loose cannon and question his state of mind

Is this about killing in general, or in regards to killing the Joker? On using a gun, i agree. It's far too easy to kill someone, be it an accident or with purpose. I wouldn't want to see Batman kill anyone with a gun anyway.

On killing, again, i wouldn't want Batman to go off killing all of his enemies. Just the Joker. It would probably ruin the relationship with Gordon, but who knows? If anything, Gordon would probably sever his friendship with Batman if it was the Joker who he killed. I can see him leading a manhunt on Batman if he just lost his mind and started killing more and more. Again, it could be used in the story, if it were told. Gordon comes after Batman, so he stops being Batman. The ideas of the story are endless, i think.

That was the rationality behind it and how the world might respond, as far as the psychology:
It's really hard to establish exactly how moral anyone is. I'd say Batman strongly believes in fairness and balance, insomuch as never crossing the line of becoming a thoughtless thug. It fits a lot with a child-like persona; one that had his parents murdered and spent his life becoming a figure trying to bring balance by waging a war on crime. He doesn't just cross the line because balance is discipline and he has to restrain himself.

If he ended up crossing the line and killing Joker, I don't see him mourning the loss at all. Just dealing with the repercussions of friends and family (which would probably be supportive). I also don't see crime diminishing in Gotham. The DCU is simply a world full of costumed heroes and villains, and Gotham is the biggest city. It just wouldn't stop.

It appears I went on a tangent, but I felt it was important to establish the Batman character and in doing so it would reflect my opinion that Batman doesn't truly obsess over the Joker, but over fairness.

If Batman crosses the line in killing The Joker, i don't think that would degrade him into a mindless thug. If anything, he would contemplate it, and logically balance it out. Like in Hush....logically, it made sense that Batman should probably just end The Joker right then and there. At least to me it did.

I don't see him mourning the loss at all either. Dealing with the repercussions, yes. I think most people would be supportive. The JLA might ask him to leave the group, but that wouldn't stop them from asking for his help when they needed it. About crime not diminishing: Well, depends on whose writing it, you can do a few things. You can have crime diminish by explaining that since Batman killed the Joker, all the other criminals are scared they're next. Or you can still have Tim and Dick patrolling Gotham. And if you use the theory that Batman is the reason behind the rise of costumed villains, his leaving might have an effect as well. It all comes down to how it would be written.

 

[RorschachFTW]

i thought he didnt kill because then he would be the same as the guy who killed his parents...

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

i thought he didnt kill because then he would be the same as the guy who killed his parents...

that makes sense

 

[RobC]

No wait, that's the *exact* reason he doesn't kill. Because he stops fighting for right, and joins wrong.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Spoiler Alert!


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Hey, the comic shop news has a soliscit that says Bruce is defeated by an as yet un-named villain, then becomes a deranged derelict, wandering the alleys of Gotham...

Is this true...?

 

[lixdexia]

Spoiler Alert!


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Hey, the comic shop news has a soliscit that says Bruce is defeated by an as yet un-named villain, then becomes a deranged derelict, wandering the alleys of Gotham...

Is this true...?

the issue hasn't come out yet, but after reading the releases for the sebsequient issues it sounds like that's what happens

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Wow, i wonder if the villain is already an established rogue, or some new guy?

Someone with mind control? Hugo Strange? The thing is; we've seen Bruce resist all kinds of mental attacks and challenges of willpower many times in the past....

Sounds like it's going to be very cool, regardless.

 

[daniPHANTOM]

My expression after reading that:
My feelings: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

 

[FCEEVIPER]

Spoiler

Hey, the comic shop news has a soliscit that says Bruce is defeated by an as yet un-named villain, then becomes a deranged derelict, wandering the alleys of Gotham...

Is this true...?

Looks like that might be the case.


As long it's well written, and Bruce comes back- I'm ok with it.

 

[antonydelfini]

Spoiler Alert!


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Hey, the comic shop news has a soliscit that says Bruce is defeated by an as yet un-named villain, then becomes a deranged derelict, wandering the alleys of Gotham...

Is this true...?

Probably. And I hope it will be epic, and Batman will be an even stronger character after this arc.

 

[RobC]

That interesting. So they don't kill Batman, or Bruce, he just takes some time off.

But on the flip-side, honestly? That's Morrisons massive arc? Batman becomes a hobo? Are you kidding me?

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

That interesting. So they don't kill Batman, or Bruce, he just takes some time off.

But on the flip-side, honestly? That's Morrisons massive arc? Batman becomes a hobo? Are you kidding me?

Yeah, and we've seen it before over in Daredevil. Hopefully, it will be done here in an equally satisfying way...

 

[RobC]

Meh, I didn't know that DareDevil had already done that. So not only is it lame, it's been done before. I don't mean the idea is lame, but for Morrison but push this 'massive' thing on us, and to whip up expectation, get us fanboys scrabbling around the internet, for this. Ouch. That hurts.

 

[Nepenthes]

I'm interested to see how Morrison handles the 'mind control' aspect of this new villain. How exactly does he manipulate thoughts, if at all? You know it won't be straighforward. I just PRAY that the villain isn't involved in any metatext 'I am your creator' puppetmaster nonsense, yet again.


'Wandering the streets' sounds a little like The Cult.

 

[CrimsonMist]

Meh, I didn't know that DareDevil had already done that.

Daredevil: Born Again

Buy it. NOW!

Miller and Mazucchelli = BRILLIANT!

 

[RobC]

Will do. Wait, holy *****, is that like the Miller re-invention of DD? The Y1? I get told about that all the time! Now I think I will pick it up!

I wonder about this new villian, Hush already did a little bit of the mind-control, and he was able to manipulate Batman.

I wonder if it will actually be a new villian, or an old one given new powers or something. Maybe Hugo Strange will be brought back...

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Daredevil: Born Again

Buy it. NOW!

Miller and Mazucchelli = BRILLIANT!

Marvel also did it with Iron Man as well...Obadiah Stane basically destroyed him mentally and emotionally and Stark ended up a derelict...

 

[Keyser Soze]

I'm hoping they use a classic villain, rather than hauling out a new "Batman's greatest ever threat OH NOES~!" villain like they seem to do every couple of years.

I'd like for it to be The Joker, but he's still tied up in this "Salvation Run" storyline. Maybe he'll be back on Earth by the time "Batman RIP" rolls around.

 

[CrimsonMist]

Will do. Wait, holy *****, is that like the Miller re-invention of DD? The Y1? I get told about that all the time! Now I think I will pick it up!

I wonder about this new villian, Hush already did a little bit of the mind-control, and he was able to manipulate Batman.

I wonder if it will actually be a new villian, or an old one given new powers or something. Maybe Hugo Strange will be brought back...

Yea, Born Again is part of Miller's re-invention of DD. His earlier stuff is just Frank Miller, newbie comic writer making Daredevil cool. Born Again is Frank Miller, comic god, making Daredevil awesome. It isn't Daredevil: Year One, though. It's Matt Murdock's life being destroyed, how he deals with it, and how he overcomes it. His Year One story is called Man Without Fear, also by Miller, with art by John Romita Jr., which is good to.

in regards to Batman R.I.P. though, i really want this villain to be a villain all fans know, not some new guy. I think it SHOULD be The Joker, but Hugo Strange would be nice...something like in Strange Apparitions, only on a much grander scale.

 

[FCEEVIPER]

BATMAN #679
Written by Grant Morrison
Art by Tony Daniel & Sandu Florea
Cover by Alex Ross
Variant cover by Daniel
“Batman R.I.P.” — Part 4! Robin and Damian team up — yes, you read that right — to search for the missing Batman. Meanwhile, the Club of Villains — The Hunchback, Pierrot Lunaire, King Kraken, Charlie Caligula, Scorpiana and El Sombrero — rampage through Gotham City! This incredible fourth chapter of “Batman R.I.P.” ends with the surprising return of a character you never thought you’d see again!
Retailers please note: This issue will ship with two covers. For every 25 copies of the Standard Edition (with a cover by Alex Ross), retailers may order one copy of the Variant Edition (with a cover by Tony Daniel). Please see the Previews Order Form for more information.
On sale July 23 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US

 

[FCEEVIPER]

ROBIN #176
Written by Chuck Dixon
Cover by Freddie E. Williams II
Art by Chris Batista & Cam Smith
A “Batman: R.I.P.” story! The shocking conclusion that will start of the rest of Tim Drake’s life — or is it the end? With Batman missing, Robin becomes the new Dark Knight. It’s Robin and Spoiler in an all-out brawl with Gotham City’s underworld — but with Batman’s trail growing cold, the end of this fight will decide the future of the Bat family!
On sale July 16 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US

 

[Keyser Soze]

ROBIN #176
Written by Chuck Dixon
Cover by Freddie E. Williams II
Art by Chris Batista & Cam Smith
A “Batman: R.I.P.” story! The shocking conclusion that will start of the rest of Tim Drake’s life — or is it the end? With Batman missing, Robin becomes the new Dark Knight. It’s Robin and Spoiler in an all-out brawl with Gotham City’s underworld — but with Batman’s trail growing cold, the end of this fight will decide the future of the Bat family!
On sale July 16 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US

Is that....The....Penguin!?

Could he be the one who....no....

 

[FCEEVIPER]

Is that....The....Penguin!?

Could he be the one who....no....

Nah, It's not gonna happen, you'll see.