Batman R.I.P.

Indeed. Not sure how there could be any confusion over that.

Cain, I'm going to take this opportunity to respond to your signature: nobody uses the term "graphic novel" to "negate" the fact that they are comic books. The term is used to differentiate those books from the standard pamphlet format, in the same way that calling a book a novel differentiates it from a short story. It's an issue of format.
 
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Not to interject; but there are people who will substitute 'comic book movie' for 'graphic novel movie' out of their own insecurities. In the context of movies at least, people are trying to negate the fact they derived from comics.
 
I don't read Batman generally, so I don't know all the ins and outs of the arc. But I do care what happens to Batman and Bruce Wayne as characters and their place in the DC universe. When Steve Rogers died, a replacement Cap made sense because a Captain America is needed because of what the costume represents. The person who filled the suit just needed to be someone who could try and live up to memory of Steve Rogers and be the best symbol he could be based on what he thought of Steve. But with Batman its not that the superhero community needs a Batman in the same way they do a Superman or Marvel needs a Cap; its that Batman as a character, as a presence in the DCU needs to be Bruce because of the kind of person Bruce is and what his personality is to the identity of Batman (remember, Bruce is often considered the secret/fake personality/identity).

Aside from that, Morrison put the X-Men in leather pants, turned Beast into a cat, gave Xavier a sewer gestating twin sister that he tried to kill in the womb, created Xorneto, created 'secondary mutations', outed the school, and changed cerebro to cerebra - so I don't hold out much hope for anything good coming out of anything he does.
 
I don't read Batman generally, so I don't know all the ins and outs of the arc. But I do care what happens to Batman and Bruce Wayne as characters and their place in the DC universe. When Steve Rogers died, a replacement Cap made sense because a Captain America is needed because of what the costume represents. The person who filled the suit just needed to be someone who could try and live up to memory of Steve Rogers and be the best symbol he could be based on what he thought of Steve. But with Batman its not that the superhero community needs a Batman in the same way they do a Superman or Marvel needs a Cap; its that Batman as a character, as a presence in the DCU needs to be Bruce because of the kind of person Bruce is and what his personality is to the identity of Batman (remember, Bruce is often considered the secret/fake personality/identity).

Aside from that, Morrison put the X-Men in leather pants, turned Beast into a cat, gave Xavier a sewer gestating twin sister that he tried to kill in the womb, created Xorneto, created 'secondary mutations', outed the school, and changed cerebro to cerebra - so I don't hold out much hope for anything good coming out of anything he does.
I like to imagine Morrison in an opium den with a type writer and a bunch of comics. He has a dart board with different ideas and characters, he uses that as a way of changing characters in his warped mind.
 
I don't read Batman generally, so I don't know all the ins and outs of the arc. But I do care what happens to Batman and Bruce Wayne as characters and their place in the DC universe. When Steve Rogers died, a replacement Cap made sense because a Captain America is needed because of what the costume represents. The person who filled the suit just needed to be someone who could try and live up to memory of Steve Rogers and be the best symbol he could be based on what he thought of Steve. But with Batman its not that the superhero community needs a Batman in the same way they do a Superman or Marvel needs a Cap; its that Batman as a character, as a presence in the DCU needs to be Bruce because of the kind of person Bruce is and what his personality is to the identity of Batman (remember, Bruce is often considered the secret/fake personality/identity).

Aside from that, Morrison put the X-Men in leather pants, turned Beast into a cat, gave Xavier a sewer gestating twin sister that he tried to kill in the womb, created Xorneto, created 'secondary mutations', outed the school, and changed cerebro to cerebra - so I don't hold out much hope for anything good coming out of anything he does.

Wasn't it Whendon that revealed the Danger room to be a woman...once it became sentient?
 
The female danger room was just 'Danger'. The first issue of Morrison's run had Charles testing out a new Cerebra machine and Hank commenting on the helmet possibly cutting Charles' ear lobes due to Hank not having his former dexterity
 
What are you talking about? the entire premise of Blackest Night is based around the Black Lanterns this has been known for quite a long time now.

I've only seen the several colored lanterns. Red, Blue, etc.
 
I like to imagine Morrison in an opium den with a type writer and a bunch of comics. He has a dart board with different ideas and characters, he uses that as a way of changing characters in his warped mind.


Or in a Glasgow crack house shooting up smack with Sick Boy and Spud from Trainspotting :hehe:
 
Indeed. Not sure how there could be any confusion over that.

Cain, I'm going to take this opportunity to respond to your signature: nobody uses the term "graphic novel" to "negate" the fact that they are comic books. The term is used to differentiate those books from the standard pamphlet format, in the same way that calling a book a novel differentiates it from a short story. It's an issue of format.

agree completely. they are two different things.

and bunk i have nevr heard anyone say "graphic novel movie" except when referring to a movie based on one.
 
Saint I definitely know the intent of the term. What inspired my sig was seeing people, not just on this site but all over the internet and even in the real world sling that term around incorrectly on the regular. Whether cause of insecurity or ignorance.

The most recent example of what could properly be categorized as a genuine graphic novel is Azzarello's Joker. But that's the first in quite a while cause the last one I remember before that was Lost Girls by Alan Moore. I see regular comic book readers all the time reffer to TPB's as Graphic Novels. The thing is though a TPB for example we all know is an anthology. A collection of different comic books which at times all tell one complete story. But they were still serialized and episodic when originally released.

So to call a TPB a graphic novel we know is wrong. It comes off as pretentious someone like me who doesn't know anybody in his personal life that reads comics but is never afraid to admit to anyone that I do read comics. Though admittedly I understand not everybody who uses the term uses it out of pretense and some even use it in it's proper context. When I see librarians refer to TPB's as graphic novels or the Watchmen trailer saying what it says instead of "based on the acclaimed comic book mini series" which is what it actually is however I can't help but chuckle.

It just reminds me of that old Robin Williams bit "'Is that a comic book? No! It's a graphic novel! Is that porn? No! It's adult entertainment!'" lol. I have to say Alan Moore was correct when he said the term has just become a marketing tool and lost all meaning within the past 20 something years. It is no different then the "for Mature Readers" label. I mean a lot of the comics people call "graphic novels" now a days are not that at all that's where my sig stems from. It seems at some point the term graphic novel became interchangeable with comic book in the eyes of many.

With all that said I personally do think the term is stupid only because graphic novels vs. a 7 issue arc still tell one story. They still use the story structure used in any novel within their respective subgenre (be it horror, action or otherwise) to unfold their narrative. When it all boils down to it the only thing differentiating them is the lack of ads and the packaging but on the insider of that book lies just another comic. I just use the term one-shot cause that's all they really are especially when at times graphic novels like Batman: Night Cries or The Killing Joke end up being canonical anyway.
 
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I don't read Batman generally, so I don't know all the ins and outs of the arc. But I do care what happens to Batman and Bruce Wayne as characters and their place in the DC universe.

So does Grant Morrison which is why Bruce Wayne will still be alive.

But with Batman its not that the superhero community needs a Batman in the same way they do a Superman or Marvel needs a Cap;

Yeah it is cause at the end of the day Batman is just a symbol of hope for the oppressed like that famous movie from a couple of years back also said.

its that Batman as a character, as a presence in the DCU needs to be Bruce because of the kind of person Bruce is and what his personality is to the identity of Batman (remember, Bruce is often considered the secret/fake personality/identity).

In the 19 years I've been reading Batman comics I have seen Bruce Wayne imply and sometimes even outright say that one of his "Sons" will be his successor. He has trained Dick and Tim teaching them everything he knows as well as helping them exploit their own unique talents. Batman is human and Bruce Wayne knows he won't be around forever.

So I disagree with this cause though Bruce Wayne is one of a kind that doesn't mean he should be the only Batman. I actually think this is a fresh and bold move by Morrisson and welcome it. This is coming from me who has believed for damn near all my life that Batman is the best character in all of fiction. that and look forward to seeing where it leads.

Last time Dick was Batman he was nowhere near as mature and developed as he is now as a character. He has become a better human being than Bruce ever was and as a hero he is secure enough in himself now that he could tackle anything. We know he won't be a Bruce Batman clone and that's what's gonna make it interesting. We're getting a new Batman even if he still keeps it in the family and seeing the villains and even GCPD reactions to that and how it evolves could prove interesting.

Yeah I know it's going to be weird to see Bruce not be Batman but at the same time if you want that there are hundreds of stories out there for you. Not just in the actual Batman solo lines but you have decades of Outsiders, Brave and the Bold and Justice League material out there with Bruce as Batman. You also have Bruce as Batman in the movies and all other media adaptations.

So you know I think it's cool to see this happen for us the fans the one's who spend our $2.99 because it kills the stagnation. It's a new spin on something familiar. It's the reason it happened to Captain America and from what I understand it the fans of that character seemed to be cool with the new status quo/
 
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I've only seen the several colored lanterns. Red, Blue, etc.

Yeah cause that's part of the setup for Blackest Night the actual event itself doesn't beging until next year. When Blackest Night was first announced it was said Yellow, Green and Red Lanterns will be threatened by the Black Lanterns. All most of us said was "Red Lanters?!?" but now as you can see about a year later it is all starting to make sense.
 
I don't read Batman generally, so I don't know all the ins and outs of the arc. But I do care what happens to Batman and Bruce Wayne as characters and their place in the DC universe. When Steve Rogers died, a replacement Cap made sense because a Captain America is needed because of what the costume represents. The person who filled the suit just needed to be someone who could try and live up to memory of Steve Rogers and be the best symbol he could be based on what he thought of Steve. But with Batman its not that the superhero community needs a Batman in the same way they do a Superman or Marvel needs a Cap; its that Batman as a character, as a presence in the DCU needs to be Bruce because of the kind of person Bruce is and what his personality is to the identity of Batman (remember, Bruce is often considered the secret/fake personality/identity).
Gotham needs Batman, in the minds of most of the relevant characters, and that's enough. As far a the kind of person Bruce is being integral to Batman, well, yes and no. Bruce happens to have three adopted sons uniquely qualified to fill many of the integral qualities of Batman--both in terms of personality, attitude, and skillset. That said, certainly, a Dick, Tim, or Jason Batman will be unique to a Bruce Wayne Batman... but that's the point. This would be a fruitless exercise if they were to become Bruce clones.

Aside from that, Morrison put the X-Men in leather pants, turned Beast into a cat, gave Xavier a sewer gestating twin sister that he tried to kill in the womb, created Xorneto, created 'secondary mutations', outed the school, and changed cerebro to cerebra - so I don't hold out much hope for anything good coming out of anything he does.
How any of that made New X-Men any less "good' is beyond me. New X-Men was stellar. Adding new ideas is what keeps these books alive.

Saint I definitely know the intent of the term. What inspired my sig was seeing people, not just on this site but all over the internet and even in the real world sling that term around incorrectly on the regular. Whether cause of insecurity or ignorance.

The most recent example of what could properly be categorized as a genuine graphic novel is Azzarello's Joker. But that's the first in quite a while cause the last one I remember before that was Lost Girls by Alan Moore. I see regular comic book readers all the time reffer to TPB's as Graphic Novels.

Which is fair, because most comics that make it to TPB format are long-form stories, simply broken into installments for monthly publication. In such cases, the collected version might constitute a graphic novel. Ed Brubaker's Captain America omnibus qualifies, for example. Geoff Johns' Green Lantern work, also. These examples seem as qualified for the graphic novel label as Joker, which--while created in for the graphic novel format--is more of a short story.

I suppose one could argue that a graphic novel must be a standalone work, but I don't subscribe to that.

. But they were still serialized and episodic when originally released.
Sure, but I don't believe that creates a relevant distinction. The serialized format seems seems hardly different from the chapter format as seen in novels or sometimes graphic novels, except in the method of release. Like I said, I view it strictly as a mater of format. Watchmen published as a mini-series was a mini-series. Watchmen published as a collected edition is a graphic novel. Or, consider it this way: "Bender's Game" might be four Futurama episodes jammed together, but when they sell it on DVD they still call it a movie.
 
It's that attitude that makes me worry about the future of Batman. When DC made Bart Allen the Flash, they screwed it up with some pretty bad execution (Wally's fate uncertain, Bart speed-aged with little explanation, and worst of all, bad writer's on Bart's series). Fans complained, and rightfully so. Sadly, DC--and many fans--assumed the problem was Bart, rather than the terrible execution and terrible writing. So instead of bringing on a better team and saving the sinking ship, they decided to kill Bart. They didn't even make it a meaningful event. Just "Yep, he's dead, and Wally's back." The Flash book has been a mess ever since. Geoff Johns will save it (that being his super power as the God of Superhero Comics), naturally, but the problem never should have existed in the first place.

I am deeply concerned that the same will happen with Batman. Regardless of how well it's handled, there will be people who don't give it a chance. That may or may not be a significant problem, but the real problem is that there will be people who don't read it and still whine about how terrible it is, despite whatever quality it may have. Moreover, if it ends up being poorly executed, as with Bart Allen, fans will complain for the wrong reasons: they'll tell DC that Dick just can't be Batman and a load of other nonsense. Then, twelve issues later, Dick will be dead or demoted, and DC will be too cowardly to try anything progressive with Batman for another ten years.
 
I don't mind that Dick might take the mantle of Batman. However it is the departure of Bruce and the ascension of Dick (pun intended) that really gets at me. I will give it a chance, but just know that it already started on a sour note with this run.
 
I don't mind that Dick might take the mantle of Batman. However it is the departure of Bruce and the ascension of Dick (pun intended) that really gets at me.

I don't understand. The way that reads to me is "I don't mind Dick becoming Batman, except for the part where he becomes Batman." That's probably not what you meant.
 
I don't understand. The way that reads to me is "I don't mind Dick becoming Batman, except for the part where he becomes Batman." That's probably not what you meant.
I mean the story that seems to be that change is not good. It did not recap Batman's life or examine his journey and how it is coming to an end. As for Nightwing, it would feel as if it is going to be randomly inserted that, oh ya and since we need a Batman we will use Nightwing. So to clean it up for you. I don't mind Dick becoming Batman, except I don't want to be the story where it happens. It is not worthy of such an epic hero.
 
I mean the story that seems to be that change is not good. It did not recap Batman's life or examine his journey and how it is coming to an end. As for Nightwing, it would feel as if it is going to be randomly inserted that, oh ya and since we need a Batman we will use Nightwing. So to clean it up for you. I don't mind Dick becoming Batman, except I don't want to be the story where it happens. It is not worthy of such an epic hero.
Ah, I see. Well, naturally, we'll have to wait and see about that how this turns out for the end of Bruce's story, but I don't imagine Nightwing will be "randomly inserted" at all. Every book advertised to follow Bruce's "fate" in Final Crisis #6 seems to be about orchestrating the proper circumstances for someone new to become Batman.

Also, I just realized I officially hate the word "Epic" now.
 
Epic epic epic epic epic. There have your fill of hate.

As I said before, maybe Nightwing as Batman (or whoever his replacement is, might be Hush if Detective is incorporated) will be good. However this story is not a good start to introduce fans to a replacement for their favorite hero.
 
^ eh new fans aren't the ones that visit comic shops anyway, they buy trades instead whether online or at a book store.

Saint that will be a term that always divides the comic book fan base. There will always be hate and love one way or the other but I will always just view it as a marketing term.
 
^ eh new fans aren't the ones that visit comic shops anyway, they buy trades instead whether online or at a book store.

Saint that will be a term that always divides the comic book fan base. There will always be hate and love one way or the other but I will always just view it as a marketing term.
when I said introduce fans. I meant Introducing Dick Grayson as Batman to fans of Bruce Wayne as Batman. basically the fans of Batman since thats all who this really pertains to.
 
Yeah cause that's part of the setup for Blackest Night the actual event itself doesn't beging until next year. When Blackest Night was first announced it was said Yellow, Green and Red Lanterns will be threatened by the Black Lanterns. All most of us said was "Red Lanters?!?" but now as you can see about a year later it is all starting to make sense.

Right. And then we saw the blue lanterns and the purple lanterns but we've never seen a Black lantern. I always thought the "Blackest Night" was just a reference to the oath. Although further investigation has caused me to realize my ignorance. I guess I should read up more. :csad:
 
I dunno i think its exciting that Dick would become the new Batman, i mean its about time! But we all know Bruce is gonna be back sooner or later, at the very least he'll be back by the next Batman movie. Dick as Batman should be real interesting and the dynamic with Robin (tim drake) should be interesting too as tim already looks up to him as a big brother.

Oh and BTW Batman 681 has been pushed back again, now comin the 26th nov. Jesus Morrison just give us the damn book already!
 
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