Batman R.I.P.

[Saint]

Reading that summary got me interested but I'll probably wait for the TPB and only if it has lasting repercussions on Batman, you don't really think Bruce Wayne is really quitting being Batman right?

Obviously he is, or they would not keep saying so. It's not sensible to sell the event the way they have and then not deliver. Stunts like Knightfall and the Death of Superman worked the way they did because those sort of stories had never been told before. Repeating that sort of thing would be inherently flawed, and DC, while fairly stupid sometimes, isn't stupid enough to do that.

Whether Bruce is gone for one year, two years, or ten years, they obviously mean to do something here that is distinct and significant.

Without Bruce there would be no Batman since he's the major driving force that has made Batman so popular with fans because of his obsession of watching his parents die, many others have doubled for Bats such as Dick Grayson and Azrael but they all have different personalities and don't have that determination that Bruce has.

The point of making someone else Batman is to make a new sort of Batman. The "only Bruce can be Batman" argument is inherently flawed, as there is really no quality that qualifies Bruce, exclusively, for the role. The idea that somebody would replace batman has been present in the comics consistently for a long time, so the material supports it. Certainly another Batman would be a different sort of Batman, but then, that is the point: progress, not stagnation.

Honestly, I understand that a lot of people are afraid of the idea that they won't get anymore Bruce Wayne stories. That's fair. That's an unpleasant idea. What I don't understand is that so many people have already determined that, no matter what, they will not like the stories told under the replacement. I don't understand how liking Bruce Wayne precludes one from appreciating a Dick Grayson Batman. Why is that so often the attitude here at the Hype? In order to appreciate one thing you have to hate the alternative?

A lot of people have spoken on how inevitably bad and/or unworkable it will be when Bruce is gone. No one has articulated any particularly satisfying reasons as to why this would be the case.

 

[Oddzball]

Obviously he is, or they would not keep saying so. It's not sensible to sell the event the way they have and then not deliver. Stunts like Knightfall and the Death of Superman worked the way they did because those sort of stories had never been told before. Repeating that sort of thing would be inherently flawed, and DC, while fairly stupid sometimes, isn't stupid enough to do that.

Whether Bruce is gone for one year, two years, or ten years, they obviously mean to do something here that is distinct and significant.


The point of making someone else Batman is to make a new sort of Batman. The "only Bruce can be Batman" argument is inherently flawed, as there is really no quality that qualifies Bruce, exclusively, for the role. The idea that somebody would replace batman has been present in the comics consistently for a long time, so the material supports it. Certainly another Batman would be a different sort of Batman, but then, that is the point: progress, not stagnation.

Honestly, I understand that a lot of people are afraid of the idea that they won't get anymore Bruce Wayne stories. That's fair. That's an unpleasant idea. What I don't understand is that so many people have already determined that, no matter what, they will not like the stories told under the replacement. I don't understand how liking Bruce Wayne precludes one from appreciating a Dick Grayson Batman. Why is that so often the attitude here at the Hype? In order to appreciate one thing you have to hate the alternative?

A lot of people have spoken on how inevitably bad and/or unworkable it will be when Bruce is gone. No one has articulated any particularly satisfying reasons as to why this would be the case.

That doesn't really hold true. Superman died. Then they brought him back. This is a more extended version of Azrael playing Batman with a possibility that this time it might be far more real to tease the readers.

I fully expect Steve Rogers to reappear by the same reasoning. Kara Zor-el was killed off, Retconned out of ever having existed and replaced (Matrix), then replaced again (Matrix/Linda) and Again (Linda sans matrix) and again (Cir-el) before Kara returned. And NO doubt at all in my mind that the powers that be at DC fully intended a permanent death for her in 1986.

 

[Saint]

That doesn't really hold true.

Sorry, what doesn't hold true? I'm not sure what I said that would be changed by the fact that Superman died and was brought back.

This is a more extended version of Azrael playing Batman with a possibility that this time it might be far more real to tease the readers.

How is this an extended version of Azrael playing Batman? Based on what have you made this determination?

I fully expect Steve Rogers to reappear by the same reasoning.

Eventually, sure. I would not count on it it being any time in the near future, though.

Kara Zor-el was killed off, Retconned out of ever having existed and replaced (Matrix), then replaced again (Matrix/Linda) and Again (Linda sans matrix) and again (Cir-el) before Kara returned. And NO doubt at all in my mind that the powers that be at DC fully intended a permanent death for her in 1986.

I never said anything about permanence. I've said repeatedly in this thread that Bruce will be back sooner or later, in one capacity or another. I'm not sure how this relates to anything I said in my post, though.

 

[Mike_D202]

Batman deserves a better send-off without Bat-Mite. He should go out with a bang rather than having his brain humped by Dr. Hurt.

 

[Saint]

I'm not sure how psychological warfare precludes him from going out with a bang.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I'm not sure how psychological warfare precludes him from going out with a bang.

WI'll actually agree with this. My problem is not with the idea itself but the writing. When writing Batman, Morrison to me is the equivalent of someone with the greatest ideas ever but can't convey them effectively on paper. I'm enjoying RIP for what it is despite my dislike for Morisson, but many of his ideas have fallen flat to me. Jezebel Jet was a totally underveloped character sold to us as "the one" which is frankly a bit of an insult that he didn't include Catwoman as a previous love in his list as well as having such an undercooked relationship. Its to me what Silver St.Cloud should have been in such short time, yet somehow Englehart succeeded while I didn't believe this relationship for one second. Another one is the Silver Age element inclusion. Flipping awesome idea, but it is once again translated poorly by having these past actions almost completely pulled at random and given virtually no foreshadowing. I respect him for trying to connect Silver Age to modern, but he has chosen some of the worst and unfit stories to intergrate (though I must give credit to Zurr En Harh with Batmite).

Not to mention he keeps freaking playing with my favourite characters the Al Ghuls. I can forgive Resurrection because it was an editing thing but Batman and Son and now this have cemented Talia as a stupid, spoilt, unlikeable and evil brat who created a test tube baby who grew up to be a stupid, spoilt, unlikeable and evil brat.

Still, if the final issue is great I'll accept this as a good story, but I will NEVER accept it as a truly great story not because of ignorance, but because a truly great story is one that doesn't rely entirely on a final reveal and shock. Looking forward to it still though.

 

[Saint]

That's not fair: just because there is a reveal to be had doesn't mean the story uses it as a crutch. Morrison loves his shock, but the important thing about his revelations is that they bring the rest of the story into focus and make it work as a whole. Hopefully that will be the case here.

As for the Silver Age elements: which of the elements that he's included are the "Worst?" Aside from Zurr En Arrh and Bat-mite, the only actively used stories are Robin Dies at Dawn (which is included in The Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told) and The Club of Heroes. I could see your complaint apply to the latter, but honestly what Morrison did with the Club was exactly what you'd want: he made them a joke.

I agree on Jezebel. I didn't buy it either. Unless the perspective of the relationship is changed by the content of the final issue, that'll be a mark against Morrison's run.

My only concern with the Al Ghul's is Talia, and honestly I don't know if I can blame Morrison on that one. Talia's characterization is so goddamn muddled that no writer can have her do anything without contradicting her apparent personality in another appearance. It's really rather annoying. She's like a ping-pong ball bouncing between a legitimate but torn love interest to a lunatic Batman-sycophant. Morrison has done a passable if not ideal job with her. Damian being a brat is fine, and expected. I've enjoyed watching some sense trickle into him during the course of the run.

The rest of the Resurrection story was acceptable. It suffers from the usual superfluous content and pacing problems that plague crossover books, but for the most part it was a decent read.

 

[SpideyInATree]

I really hope they don't try to do another Azareal/Batman replacement thing. Knightfall definitely had it's moments but I would like to see them try something new. Unless they are going to have Bruce die and then Dick Grayson take over the mantle but I believe they already kind of did that back in the 90's as well. Tim Drake taking over would be a pretty awesome thing but he's still a bit too young.

Either way I have really enjoyed this RIP story arc and Morrison's Batman run as a whole. I love how he has tied everything up from the beginning of the arc to the closing moments. Very impressed, as usual, by Morrison's writing.

 

[Drz]

Batman's final fate will be in Final Crisis. Someone suggesting he would become what Hal Jordan became, some god thing. But that would just mean every few years some character becomes this god and that becomes cliche.

I just wanna see Bruce Wayne retire from the mental abuse hes gonna go thru now, if its truly true that Dr. Hurt is Thomas Wayne. Some rumor its Joe Chill's son, some the long lost brother of Bruce and then theres that hes Darkseid but that would be dull for me, for i only read Batman comics and barely know anything about Darkseid.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Are we there yet? Isn't this over? I can't wait for the end of FC and RIP, hopefully when we move on the next few months will see a out pouring of simply excellent arcs.

Do we know anything about Origins and Omens?

 

[chris moore]

I dont know about the Thomas Wayne/Hurt rumour. But I do believe that is one element of the mythos that they would never touch. Its like despite everyone that's returned in Spidey (Aunt May, MJ, Osborne, Harry), the one person they will never ever bring back (for real, not an alternative earth counterpart or thrownforward in time version) is Uncle Ben. Likewise for Batman. Never ever will any writer be allowed to bring back Thomas or Martha.

 

[Drz]

Dr. Hurt claims to be Thomas Wayne, its not a rumor. Tomorrow we will finally know who he is, but it has to be somewhat important since its the reason Joker is helping the Black Glove.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Can't wait for the final issue. It feels like forever since that unbearable cliffhanger of the last issue.

 

[Drz]

http://www.dccomics.com/media/excerpts/10341_x.pdf

The Batman in the coffin seems to be Alfred, look how slick he is and he has a moustahce even.

 

[Cain]

I couldn't view the second page but I saw the rest and that's no moustache that's Tony Daniels' idea of shading. I hope with the long delay he was able to deliver better art throughout the rest of the issue. So black and red comes back up again red eyes with black shadows and of course the R.I.P logo can't believe we're finally here. Halfway point to the next step in Batman lore.

 

[Saint]

Those pages are really, really interesting. Incidentally, I'm starting to wonder if Hurt really is the Devil. That would be awesome.

 

[Cain]

Yeah I know that would piss off those expecting something from the end of the world but I'd be cool with that. I can't recall Batman ever facing the devil while I remember Superman confronting C.W. Saturn (Satan) so it'd be cool to see Batman in that predicament. I'm sure the king of evil will have issues with one of the guys who is the best at eradicating evil amongst humanity.

We've seen a lot of satan references all throughout this run and it'd make sense since Hurt called Joker his faithful servant. Plus it's also quite possible the stuff with Thomas Wayne being a jerk and all could've been influenced by the devil hence "I'm Dr. Hurt" now, perhaps possesion? after all we have seen stories that dealt with Batman's parents in a supernatural sense before and since Morrison grew up pre-crisis I'm sure he has come across those tales. We'll see in due time though personally I still think it's something as obvious as Bruce Wayne being the mastermind behind everything.

 

[Saint]

Yeah I know that would piss off those expecting something from the end of the world but I'd be cool with that. I can't recall Batman ever facing the devil while I remember Superman confronting C.W. Saturn (Satan) so it'd be cool to see Batman in that predicament. I'm sure the king of evil will have issues with one of the guys who is the best at eradicating evil amongst humanity.

We've seen a lot of satan references all throughout this run and it'd make sense since Hurt called Joker his faithful servant. Plus it's also quite possible the stuff with Thomas Wayne being a jerk and all could've been influenced by the devil hence "I'm Dr. Hurt" now, perhaps possesion? after all we have seen stories that dealt with Batman's parents in a supernatural sense before and since Morrison grew up pre-crisis I'm sure he has come across those tales. We'll see in due time though personally I still think it's something as obvious as Bruce Wayne being the mastermind behind everything.

I normally discount any possibility that is voiced by a character. It's not effective to have a character say "Maybe it's XYZ," let the mystery hang for six months, and then say "Yeah, it really is XYZ." Obviously you don't want revelation that's completely out of nowhere, but you want one that the audience only sees coming after they know the truth, and can look back at all the little hints they missed the first time around.

There are exceptions. They say "It's a bloody double," about a dozen times in The Prestige, and that revelation still works (also, I love that movie to death), but that's only because the perspective is different than you would have thought. It's not just a double. In this instance I would put double my money on the "It's Bruce Wayne's subconscious!" possibility being bogus, as Jezebel was the one to voice it. More psychological warfare from the House of Hurt.

 

[Oddzball]

Sorry, what doesn't hold true? I'm not sure what I said that would be changed by the fact that Superman died and was brought back.

"Obviously he is, or they would not keep saying so." They can keep insisting and will keep insisting as long as they can to drum up sales.

How is this an extended version of Azrael playing Batman? Based on what have you made this determination?

Bruce stopped being Batman. Spinal injury that realistically should have retired him for the rest of his life.

Azrael was a defacto trial run for this.

 

[Saint]

"Obviously he is, or they would not keep saying so." They can keep insisting and will keep insisting as long as they can to drum up sales.

Please read the rest of the paragraph in which that comment was contained, as it responds to what you have just said.

Bruce stopped being Batman. Spinal injury that realistically should have retired him for the rest of his life.

Azrael was a defacto trial run for this.

No. Knightfall was a different story, as it was not about replacing Batman. This was obvious from day one: when Azrael puts on the costume for the first time, the book practically screams at you "HE'S GONNA BE A BAD GUY AND BATMAN WILL HAVE TO STOP HIM." It was about examining the relationship between Bruce Wayne and Batman; Azbats was a vehicle for this, being an undiluted, uninhibited version of Batman. Since RIP is obviously not that kind of story, Knightfall and RIP are entirely dissimilar, except in that they involved a replacement Batman.

 

[The Batman]

It's also impressive seeing saint own people who have no idea what they're talking about

 

[Cain]

I normally discount any possibility that is voiced by a character. It's not effective to have a character say "Maybe it's XYZ," let the mystery hang for six months, and then say "Yeah, it really is XYZ." Obviously you don't want revelation that's completely out of nowhere, but you want one that the audience only sees coming after they know the truth, and can look back at all the little hints they missed the first time around.

There are exceptions. They say "It's a bloody double," about a dozen times in The Prestige, and that revelation still works (also, I love that movie to death), but that's only because the perspective is different than you would have thought. It's not just a double. In this instance I would put double my money on the "It's Bruce Wayne's subconscious!" possibility being bogus, as Jezebel was the one to voice it. More psychological warfare from the House of Hurt.

I get what you mean my sentiments are similar when it comes to usual works of fiction. However since this is Morrison we're talking about who's past on superhero books from Animal Man & JLA to the X-Men and even his Marvel Boy mini from a few years back has slipped the most obvious resolutions early on in an arc as the factual ones by arc's end that's why I haven't let up on that just yet.

The beauty of Morrison is not so much in giving stuff away extremely early on sometimes it's how he elaborates and fleshes out those concepts that makes his work endearing reads. That being said we're less than 24 hours away and it will all make sense soon enough. One thing that I forgot to mention earlier is that since red and black is so prominent in this arc and in mythology those colors are usually attributed to lucifer well it could still be Satan. Damn I just realized that haven't anticipated a comic like this since Infinite Crisis #6.

 

[Saint]

I get what you mean my sentiments are similar when it comes to usual works of fiction. However since this is Morrison we're talking about who's past on superhero books from Animal Man & JLA to the X-Men and even his Marvel Boy mini from a few years back has slipped the most obvious resolutions early on in an arc as the factual ones by arc's end that's why I haven't let up on that just yet.

I haven't read Animal Man or Marvel Boy, but what revelations in JLA and X-Men were slipped early in those stories?

The beauty of Morrison is not so much in giving stuff away extremely early on sometimes it's how he elaborates and fleshes out those concepts that makes his work endearing reads. That being said we're less than 24 hours away and it will all make sense soon enough. One thing that I forgot to mention earlier is that since red and black is so prominent in this arc and in mythology those colors are usually attributed to lucifer well it could still be Satan. Damn I just realized that haven't anticipated a comic like this since Infinite Crisis #6.

The red and black thing has been an ongoing question for me. The fact that the characters in the story are aware of the significance of those colours suggest to me that the villain is something grander than just a simple man, like Thomas Wayne. Batman knows these colours are important. The Joker knows. This means their presence isn't just a thematic thing thrown in by Morrison. Their presence in the world has some purpose within the story. That distinctly suggests something more than human. If these colours were simply thematic, never mentioned by the characters but noticed by the audience, we could assume it's just a stylistic, thematic thing. But the characters acknowledge these colours and their significance, so obviously they have some practical relevance in the story. Why would there be red and black everywhere if we were talking about Thomas Wayne?

 

[deathfromabove]

any idea when this will see a collected trade release?

 

[Anti-Moderator]

February 10, 2009 I believe. It is available for preorder on Amazon.