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BATMAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

Zaphod said:
I realise this thread isn't a blog, but I feel the need to sing my praises:

For all the posts that were here when I got back, it might as well be a blog. :(

The exams which so diverted my attention away from the 'Batman Safe-Haven' have come back to me with my results: Two A's, two C's and a B. For those at all curious, I take English Literature, History, Drama and was previously taking Media Studies. Again, probaly none of you are interested, but there you go.

Congrats, Zaphod. :cool: :up:

In other more topical news, I've been doing some thinking on the Penguin's role in the 'Batman: Year One' movie of ours, and I have decided that he's purpose and role need to be bigger, more involved with the villain-threat (excepting Falcone, since that would be pervading the entire film anyway). I'm planning to post something about this soon enough, bear with me since theres alot.

More involved than fighting the Batman, being the supplier of muscle for the Scarecrow and knowing of his plans before the rest of Gotham even gets the big threat?

I'd like more exposure for him as well, but I hope it's not too big a role expansion, since I'm already worried about being able to fit the essential and modified aspects of the 'Year One' TPB, the original Penguin scenes, the Scarecrow plot, several scenes of Bruce's childhood and a few scenes of the Public Bruce persona hamming it up all into 3 hours.

The main things I'm cutting out of the original 'Year One' story are the focus on the Gordon/Essen love affair (although Det. Sarah Essen will probably still be in Gordon's command, and there might be hints), some of the little scenes with Gordon and his wife and the action parts of the ending where Johnny Falcone kidnaps Gordon's baby boy and an non-costumed Bruce saves him. That ending always seemed tacked on to me and further goes to show that the story was really about James Gordon, not the Batman. While Gordon will have a large role in this movie, he will not be the main character. We will get inside his head and hear his voiceovers. He and the Batman both will be the "main" characters, but the Batman must come first.

As I said before, I feel all of this would be a challenge to juggle. I'm not saying it can't be done, though. I look forward to what you've got.

:wolverine
 
The main events that will remain from 'Year One' are these (mostly in order):
  • James Gordon arrives in Gotham by train, Bruce Wayne arrives by plane, and their voiceovers (VOs) tell us that they both wish they'd done it the other way around.
  • Gordon meets his partner Det. Arnold Flass and then Commissioner Loeb; gets a sleazy, pep talk from Loeb that full of threatening hints.
  • Short scenes of Flass and other cops misbehaving in full view of Gordon.
  • Bruce chopping bricks and kicking down trees, testing his strength and VO'ing about how there's something missing and he has to wait.
  • Flass complains to Loeb and says Gordon's not "working out," offering to have the boys "soften him up;" Loeb says to wait two weeks when he'll be out of town.
  • Flass and other cops ambush and beat up Gordon with bats, leaving him hurt but not in need of medical assistance.
  • Bruce loses patience, puts on a disguise and takes a walk through the sleazy East End of Gotham. He witnesses a pimp slapping his 'ho and eggs him on into a fight. More people join the fight and he gets wounded. Police get involved and shoot him, then arrest him and take him in their car. Bruce breaks out of the cuffs, causes the car to crash and escapes.
  • Gordon runs Flass off the road, throws him a bat (such as the ones he was beaten with earlier) and beats him up with his bare hands, leaving him hurt but not in need of medical assistance. He also strips him naked and leaves him by the side of the road in handcuffs.
  • Bruce makes his way home, bleeding and hurt, stumbling into his father's study and VO's that he won't call Alfred until he figures out what's missing that he needs to fulfill his destiny. A bat flies through the window and gives him his inspiration. He calls Alfred.
  • A volatile hostage sitation with children involved breaks out and Gordon takes command before Sgt. Branden (the explosive-happy SWAT officer) can make things worse. Gordon drops his gun in full view of the hostage taker (HT) and enters the building to handle him. He gets close enough to the HT and takes him down barehanded, earning acclaim from the press, making it harder for Loeb to get rid of him.
  • The Batman goes out in full costume for the first time and stops a bunch of crooks. This will not play out like it did in Miller's story. The Batman will be graceful and on task, not clumsy and a "lucky amateur."
  • Flass, now wearing a neck brace and Band-Aids on his face, tells his squad at Gordon's behest to recount the previous night's events. We see a deal go down between he and Jefferson Skeevers, with Skeevers' goons unloading drugs to put in his car, but Flass narrates that he was following on an anonymous tip about a cocaine delivery in the East End (where everything in Gotham seems to happen), and he "was in the process of singlehandedly apprehending the felons" *cough* when the Batman swooped in looking all huge and scary and made Flass convinced he wasn't human. This would be an awesome shootout scene with the Batman seeming invincible (not getting shot, having claws, shooting paralyzing darts. The Batman singled Flass out and gave him a beating, thus the neckbrace and Band-Aids.
  • There's a big dinner party at the Mayor's mansion, with Gillian Loeb and Carmine Falcone attending as well as other Gotham City big shots. The Batman tranquilizes the guards, sets up floodlights, cuts the power and throws a smoke bomb through the window just as a server brings a flambe platter. His silouette drifts into the house and lifts the flambe pan cover for a creepy face effect while he gives his "You have eaten well... none of you are safe" speech.
  • Loeb makes the Batman a top priority for the police department, assigning the task force to Gordon. Gordon has a decoy squad pretend to be muggers and victims, attempting to lure the Batman out, but the Batman just watches, wise to the whole setup.
  • The Batman puts Carmine Falcone's Rolls Royce in the river. I want to alter it so instead of you seeing Falcone tied up and undressed in bed, you see the Batman actually visit him in the night while he's in bed, startle him awake and threaten him. After they exchange a few words, the Batman tosses the Rolls' hood ornament on Falcone's bed and tells him off which pier his car was misplaced. Falcone's driver, a large, grizzled gangster, is the one found in his bed tied up and gagged, the car keys laying next to him.
  • Gordon questions A.D.A. Harvey Dent about his whereabouts on the nights the Batman terrorized Gotham's most powerful men. Dent is known to hate Falcone for his criminal status, the fact that witnesses keep changing their testimony and disappearing, and because he's used his power to keep Dent an Assistant District Attorney. He notices the weight bench and large bar-bells in his office and comments on them ("You keep in shape, don't you, Mr. Dent?"). After Gordon leaves, Dent glances back behind his desk and tells the Batman, crouched underneath, he can come out now. They're in cahoots!
  • On the way from Dent's office, Gordon talks to Sarah Essen about how Dent had an alibi for every date between midnight and four. He mentions the weapons and how they're hard to afford on Dent's salary. Essen mentions Bruce Wayne and how he's the richest man in Gotham, large and saw his parents killed in front of him as a boy.
There's more from the TPB, but I'll leave it here for now. I want to rework how the big police battle royale happens, and I want the Batman and Gordon to at least start getting to know each other better before that happens. Harvey Dent and the Batman got along fine right off, but Gordon was against the Batman. In Miller's story, he sympathizes with the Batman after seeing him save a life but he doesn't trust him until after the Batman saves his son, and he can't even be 100% sure it is the Batman, since Bruce isn't even wearing a mask. They speak to each other only in that scene, and they are not seen together in the last scene. I want all of that changed. No kidnapping scheme, like I said, and I want Gordon, Dent and the Batman all together on the rooftop at the end, agreeing to take down Falcone, among other criminals.

You see why there's gonna be a challenge in fitting everything in?

:wolverine
 
Does this thread only apply to Batman Begins or is the thread for all of the Bat-films?
 
Bullseye said:
Does this thread only apply to Batman Begins or is the thread for all of the Bat-films?

It's even broader than that. It's for people to brainstorm, either alone or in collaboration, either new superhero adaptation products in non-comics media (movies, TV, video games, etc.) that or more faithful to the source material than previous ones and/or discussing what changes could have been made to previous products that would have made them more faithful to the source material.

That's a confusing Goddamn sentence, I know. Put more clearly, if you wanted to discuss how any of the Bat-films could have been more faithful to the source material and better, that's fine.



It's interesting, but the set-up for Zaphod's and my Batman franchise's third movie, as I currently envision it, is actually very similar to the basic set-up of 'Batman Forever,' since Gordon is now the Police Commissioner, the Batman is now established as his go-to guy when the police can't handle villains, it will have the Riddler and Two Face as main villains (but not working together) and it will introduce Robin (but properly this time, not an annoying punk who's much too old to be adopted and causes more trouble than he's worth). That wasn't actually on purpose, mimicking anything about 'Batman Forever,' but it worked out that way.
There was definitely a lot of potential in that movie, but they took too many liberties and didn't properly balance the camp factor. If you're going to make a campy movie based on the campy years of the Batman, fine, but don't confuse people by blurring Tim Burton's designs with Joel Schumacher's. It was too dark to be a fully campy movie and too campy to be a fully serious movie. It needed to make up its mind and stick to a narrower range of material. The campy stuff was actually relatively well-written for what it was in 'Forever' (well, not for Robin O'Donnel...), but in 'Batman and Robin,' there was pretty much no good writing anywhere.

:wolverine
 
Just a suggestion for the video game. All your missions seem to be crimes of one kind or another. How about throwing in a couple of rescue type missions as well? Batman has done a good number of those over the years.
 
Bathead said:
Just a suggestion for the video game. All your missions seem to be crimes of one kind or another. How about throwing in a couple of rescue type missions as well? Batman has done a good number of those over the years.
Very good point. The crimes listed are not the full list of missions and activities, but absolutely, there would be rescues (in addition to rescuing the victims of crimes in progress). Thanks for the suggestion. :up:

They'll be less frequent than crimes, especially because I don't want it to be like the game for 'Spider-Man 2' (where the same exact thing happened over and over again, with people falling from scaffolds and hurting themselves in the street all the damn time), but he should definitely do a few different types of rescues several times.




One obvious type of rescue is burning buildings. A structure that looks like it can collapse at any moment from the inside and has the stairways blocked or in ruins is the perfect place for the Batman to do what the professionals can't. With your grapnel, some of your gadgets (including small explosives, which must be used very carefully in this situation) and your ability to move very quickly and carry a rescuee using one arm to secure, wearing much lighter (and less effective, unfortunately) Nomex shielding, you can do what they can't in a pinch. You'd use the grapnel to carry you up through unsafe stairwells (or straight up the center of the building if it's built in an atrium/balcony style) and to lower yourself and your rescuee. You'd use small Bat-bombs on doors, and possibly parts of walls if the Batman says it's okay after using the First-Person/Close Inspection View. You can kick down most doors, but if it's surrounded by enough fire, you could get hurt and be forced to move slower. The same applies to walls that the Batman deems unsafe to blast or kick through (he can kick through cheap walls if he has to in general).

The firefighters would basically be giving up by the time you arrive (you'll get a notice over your emergency and police radio scanner) on whomever is still inside, and there may actually be a fireman or two still in there. You would use your directional microphones to listen to the firemen talking to each other when you arrive for any clues as to where you can make an entry and if they know how many people are still inside. You would be carrying two gas/rebreather masks in your utility belt (later in his career, he actually had a backup mask... or I could be confusing that belt with Robin/Tim Drake's, which had not only at least two rebreather but lots of oxygen cartridges), one of which you would use, and the other you'd put on the person you're rescuing.
If there are multiple people in danger, you'll have to make every attempt at rescuing everyone if you have reason to believe they're in danger, or your Knight rating gets penalized. If in the game you were close enough to hear the firemen say "I think there's X many people still in there and we can't reach them" and/or if you were facing their direction with your directional microphones on (I'm just going to call them "Bat-ears" from now on), the information gets recorded in your Dialogue Record (the Batman remembers everything he hears in this game, and all you have to do is check), which makes you responsible for that information. If the firemen say they don't know or say nothing, then you just don't earn as many points, rather than losing them for neglecting lives you knew were in danger. That dynamic goes for all lives in danger in every situation. Inside the burning building, you can use your Bat-ears to scan around and pick up screams, but the most effective technique for seeking out possible people trapped is if you use the dialogue function to call out and also scan.

It could get annoying, but if this was a recurring type of rescue mission and you kept a decent Knight rating by the time you've done two big fire rescues perfectly, you could earn a special gadget-- a fire extinguisher grenade, which is the same size and shape as one of your other grenades (smoke bomb, tear gas cannister, flashbang) but extinguishes fire for a certain range of where the thing goes off. The fire will spread back there after a little while, but you'll earn some previous time. It would help a bit during the big battle royale with the police, which will indeed be a burning building once Sgt. Branden drops a bomb or two from a helicopter right on the condemned building you ran into to escape the police. There will be some derilicts in there to save, and a cat. The cat is very important, because the Batman saved a cat in 'Batman: Year One,' and in the game, successfully saving the cat will boost your Knight rating considerably from wherever it was and give you the option to roam Gotham City as Catwoman after beating the game!


It occurs to me that if the burning building missions were repeating, that could lead to an old school investigation and another boss fight down the line. After three or so incidents, the Batman would get suspicious, open a Tentative Case file (which automatically puts copies of each of the Batman's pertinent incident reports in one file) and explore the possibility that each of the incidents are related. Maybe this should be left to a second game, since I'm having trouble thinking up ways to keep the games fresh from game to game. I don't know. The first step is to cross-reference the files (which would be easiest in the second game or later, when the Batcomputer is now a formidable intelligence-gathering database), and it may or may not yield a clear lead. You can still do some sort of grouped data function that puts all categorical data in lists for each category (for example, for "Owner/Landlord" you'd get three or so names in the same place category, one for each building). If the cross-reference yields anything at all, though, you must examine it closely and consider it a possible lead. There will be information in the Batman's files on arson, just as with all other crimes in the game, so that info might be helpful and put you on a clearer path. If any of the owner/landlords or supers have been charged with insurance fraud before or are known to be in debt, that's a red flag. If there's record of anyone invested in the building having pressed charged against someone else, that's a possible lead. If you dress up as Matches Malone, walk into a known criminal hangout bar in a huff and start complaining to the bartender that a jackass named [name of landlord] owes him overdue money and is now M.I.A., someone might happen to mention another guy who he owed money and how the guy "learned his lesson." Lead! Or you can start busting heads as the Batman and interrogate people until you get a new lead on the person you're asking about.
Anyway, it all probably leads to Firefly, who'd have been hired to set some really nasty fires by one or more parties whose names you'd find through detective work. That's the kind of stuff I want going on in a Batman game. Conspiracy is the probably the best way to the heart of a bigger case, so files and computers are important, and so is legwork, surveillance and interrogation.



I haven't thought deeply about other kinds of rescue missions yet. Maybe you could offer some suggestions for those?

Thanks again for posting, Bathead. :up:

:wolverine
 
When I was thinking of rescues, the one that kept popping up in my mind was the one in BTAS, (Appointment In Crime Alley was the episode, I think) Where Batman was trying to stop an out of control trolley car that was about to crash into a crowded cross-street.IIRC, he started out chasing it in the batmobile, the ended up jumping onto the trolley itself. I forget how he did it, there was something wrong with the handbrake, I seem to recall. It was either brute strength, or jamming a batarang into the brake mechanism. I can't really remember for sure. Perhaps someone who remembers the episode will refresh my memory.
That was just one kind of rescue, It seems most do involve saving some civilian or cop from a villian's evil plot, but there were always some that were just accidentals like that one. If I can think of any more I'll let ya know.
 
Bathead said:
When I was thinking of rescues, the one that kept popping up in my mind was the one in BTAS, (Appointment In Crime Alley was the episode, I think) Where Batman was trying to stop an out of control trolley car that was about to crash into a crowded cross-street.IIRC, he started out chasing it in the batmobile, the ended up jumping onto the trolley itself. I forget how he did it, there was something wrong with the handbrake, I seem to recall. It was either brute strength, or jamming a batarang into the brake mechanism. I can't really remember for sure. Perhaps someone who remembers the episode will refresh my memory.
That was just one kind of rescue, It seems most do involve saving some civilian or cop from a villian's evil plot, but there were always some that were just accidentals like that one. If I can think of any more I'll let ya know.

Good one. :up:

Trolley rescue: check.

Another rescue I know would happen at least once is pushing an old homeless woman out of the way of a van whose driver is having a heart attack. I don't know if this should be a recurring type of rescue or not.

The other idea I had is attempted suicides. If you're in the vicinity of someone standing on the edge of a bridge or building who may jump, the Batman will alert the player and zoom in for a moment, thus logging the event and making you responsible for the person living through the night. Either you find a way to sneak up right next to him without being seen before he jumps (which may involve using climbing claws) or you have to dive after him and grab him in mid-fall, using the grapnel and de-cel line to slow and stop your fall. I don't know if you should deliver him to the police so he can get help, since the police are untrustworthy, but it would be reasonable to have the man scared so badly from the fall and the shock of getting plucked out of the air by a giant bat-man that you can rest assured that he'd be okay for the rest of the night. I'd probably have the Batman give the man a number or address of a free or affordable counseling service.

I'll try to think of more. Thanks again, Bathead.

:wolverine
 
ANNOUNCEMENT:

I've got about three days left where I know I'll have easy access to the Internet for a little while. I'm moving on Friday to a house that doesn't yet have cable internet hooked up and I'm having my current modem taken back by the cable company on Thursday morning. If there's anything you know you want me to read any time soon, try to post it before Thursday.
I'm going to try and get hooked up as soon as possible in my new place, but I don't know when that will be. I'll probably be able to check in from the campus library in a few days either way.

:wolverine
 
I have a great deal, but I did just send you a PM stating that I wont be having anything posted before your leave. Apologise, but I assure you it's nothing to do with laziness.
 
Zaphod said:
I have a great deal, but I did just send you a PM stating that I wont be having anything posted before your leave. Apologise, but I assure you it's nothing to do with laziness.

Don't sweat it, Zaphod. You just take care of you and yours. The Batman will keep.

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
Anybody got anything at all?

:wolverine

I'll put my pilot idea for a Bruce Wayne TV series here for you to see when I get home. :up:
 
The Sage said:
I'll put my pilot idea for a Bruce Wayne TV series here for you to see when I get home. :up:

Best get home before tomorrow morning (EST), else I won't be able to see it. The cable man's comin' to take away my magical internet box, and I don't know how soon I can get it set up at my new place. I look forward to it. :up:

:wolverine
 
I apologize if the things I'm about to say have been covered, because frankly the thread is absolutely massive, and the posts in it are equally gigantic.

As a comic book fan, and more specifically, a Batman fan, I try to enjoy as much material as possible by being open to as many interpretations as possible. I know very the well the people who get into Frank versus Denny debates and the like, and I honestly they fly right over my head. I would much rather absorb as many well done interpretations as possible, as opposed to declaring myself a Frank/Denny/Etc. fan and denouncing all others.

It is by this that I have come to my problem with the batfilms. Now, I very much like BATMAN, BATMAN RETURNS, and especially BATMAN BEGINS. As far as I am concerned, each is a valid and well done interpretation of the character--some better than others, but each with it's own flaws. However, my problem is not with the films that have been made, but rather with the films that have NOT been made.

Burton's films were something of a gothic opera, Schumacher's a campy adventure, and Nolan's film is an urban epic. I contend that following Nolan's films--since I look forward to seeing him continue his series--another reboot will be required. The reason for this is because the next series of films needs to combine those aspects that weren't applicable in previous interpretations. I want to see a series that focuses on the fantastical elements of Batman, those things you don't see in the stories that are down to earth.

I want a Batman film where he doesn't NEED body armour because he can dodge bullets. Where we can see Clayfaces and Killer Crocs, and dare I say it, Supermen. I want the film where Robin can be a fifteen year old boy--that came out creepier than intended--and the Gotham sky can be red with a massive yellow moon suspended in the clouds.

I know why we haven't seen these things, and the simple answer is cowardice. Hollywood is populated by cowardly film makers afraid to break the norm. I don't mean to take anything away from the other Batfilms; as I said I like them very much. But when this series is finished, it will be time for someone to have the balls to do something extreme.

The answer is stylization. Stylization so extreme that the audience is able to suspend there disbeliefs, no matter how ridiculous. The notion must be created that the world of Gotham isn't like our world: it's a world with bat demons and plant mistresses and a kid in a robin outfit who jumps off rooftops.

Consider Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. Nobody said "Giant robots are dumb!" because in the context of the film, in the reality of that wordl, they were perfectly acceptable. That's what I imagine for the next series of Batman movies--stylization so complete that the world of Gotham becomes a reality unto itself. I want to be convinced that Batman can fight a man made out of clay.

It is all these fantastic, impossible things that need to be crammed into this hypothetical reboot. That's the world where Batman can be the world's greatest detective, it's finest martial artist, a scientist, a scholar--indeed, the ultimate man. I guess what I'm really saying is that I want the live-action equivalent of Batman: The Animated Series.

I have enjoyed extensively Gothic Batman, and am now enjoying Realistic Urban Batman, but when Nolan finishes his run the time will come for what I consider to be the third component of Batman's three main faces, which is Mythic Batman.
 
That... that was just so beautiful. I'm literally on the verge of tears... that was so perfect.

Welcome to the Haven x 100, Saint. You're gonna fit in just fine. :up::up:



Saint said:
I apologize if the things I'm about to say have been covered, because frankly the thread is absolutely massive, and the posts in it are equally gigantic.

That's perfectly fine. With two threads now open that direspectfully use the name "Safe Haven" in them devoted to anti-source material fans (I say this not because they support the movies, but because they openly revile the type of person who posts in my threads, which makes them fair game for my judgement), I'm thrilled to see a post that reminds me of why I opened this and the other Havens.


As a comic book fan, and more specifically, a Batman fan, I try to enjoy as much material as possible by being open to as many interpretations as possible. I know very the well the people who get into Frank versus Denny debates and the like, and I honestly they fly right over my head. I would much rather absorb as many well done interpretations as possible, as opposed to declaring myself a Frank/Denny/Etc. fan and denouncing all others.

Excellent. Embracing tribalism unnecessarily is for primitive people unworthy of intelligent conversation. I realize some of the things I myself say have a very "us vs. them" ring to them, but at least it's a response rather than an opening attack. Picking sides of an actual argument (using source material vs. ignoring it) is one thing, but choosing allegiances to people you don't know and products and fictional characters you don't have a financial stake in? That's ridiculous. I used to hate Batman because I loved Superman the way a fair number of people on these boards do. Then I turned 6 years old. I don't understand why people haven't gotten over it. If not for nuclear weapons and the threat of mutually assured destruction, there would be a lot more wars in this world, precisely because of tribalism. Some people are actually of the mindset that "my favorite sports team is better than your favorite sports team, and I'll beat you up for preferring the other team and being within my sight." Seriously, what the hell is that?

I think you've got a very good attitude about this whole thing in terms of accepting several interpretations. You're more tolerant than I am on certain things, but I would only hold that against you if I was highly susceptible to the lure of tribalistic urges we retain genetically. Some people resist.

It is by this that I have come to my problem with the batfilms. Now, I very much like BATMAN, BATMAN RETURNS, and especially BATMAN BEGINS. As far as I am concerned, each is a valid and well done interpretation of the character--some better than others, but each with it's own flaws. However, my problem is not with the films that have been made, but rather with the films that have NOT been made.

Excellent way of putting it.

Burton's films were something of a gothic opera, Schumacher's a campy adventure, and Nolan's film is an urban epic. I contend that following Nolan's films--since I look forward to seeing him continue his series--another reboot will be required. The reason for this is because the next series of films needs to combine those aspects that weren't applicable in previous interpretations. I want to see a series that focuses on the fantastical elements of Batman, those things you don't see in the stories that are down to earth.

I want a Batman film where he doesn't NEED body armour because he can dodge bullets. Where we can see Clayfaces and Killer Crocs, and dare I say it, Supermen. I want the film where Robin can be a fifteen year old boy--that came out creepier than intended--and the Gotham sky can be red with a massive yellow moon suspended in the clouds.

I know why we haven't seen these things, and the simple answer is cowardice. Hollywood is populated by cowardly film makers afraid to break the norm. I don't mean to take anything away from the other Batfilms; as I said I like them very much. But when this series is finished, it will be time for someone to have the balls to do something extreme.

The answer is stylization. Stylization so extreme that the audience is able to suspend there disbeliefs, no matter how ridiculous. The notion must be created that the world of Gotham isn't like our world: it's a world with bat demons and plant mistresses and a kid in a robin outfit who jumps off rooftops.

Consider Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. Nobody said "Giant robots are dumb!" because in the context of the film, in the reality of that wordl, they were perfectly acceptable. That's what I imagine for the next series of Batman movies--stylization so complete that the world of Gotham becomes a reality unto itself. I want to be convinced that Batman can fight a man made out of clay.

It is all these fantastic, impossible things that need to be crammed into this hypothetical reboot. That's the world where Batman can be the world's greatest detective, it's finest martial artist, a scientist, a scholar--indeed, the ultimate man. I guess what I'm really saying is that I want the live-action equivalent of Batman: The Animated Series.

I have enjoyed extensively Gothic Batman, and am now enjoying Realistic Urban Batman, but when Nolan finishes his run the time will come for what I consider to be the third component of Batman's three main faces, which is Mythic Batman.

Here's where the tears start threatening to leak.

That's a perfect way to describe the situation, and my vision. I don't know how much I can even add to that right now. 'Sky Captain' is a great example. Truthfully, any well-made movie that's distinctively stylized can pull off the whole "it works in this universe" thing.

The Batman franchise Zaphod and I are envisioning is mainly the Mythic Batman, but it has many elements similar to Realistic Urban Batman (but the costumes are all comic accurate, as are many things). I also like to see new things, more as a personal taste than a conviction I would argue. I rarely argue when people in the Havens comment on my treatment posts and say a certain aspect sounds like it deviates too much. Gotta stick by my principles. But yes, I find it fun to innovate and find ways to merge realism with the source material, with the source material being the guideline and dominant factor, since the name of the movie (if naming the main character and a pre-existing fiction franchise) should match what's in the movie.

I'm so glad you posted that before I have to go days without internet. Thank you, and once again, Welcome to the Haven. :up:

:wolverine
 
Saint said:
I apologize if the things I'm about to say have been covered, because frankly the thread is absolutely massive, and the posts in it are equally gigantic.

As a comic book fan, and more specifically, a Batman fan, I try to enjoy as much material as possible by being open to as many interpretations as possible. I know very the well the people who get into Frank versus Denny debates and the like, and I honestly they fly right over my head. I would much rather absorb as many well done interpretations as possible, as opposed to declaring myself a Frank/Denny/Etc. fan and denouncing all others.

It is by this that I have come to my problem with the batfilms. Now, I very much like BATMAN, BATMAN RETURNS, and especially BATMAN BEGINS. As far as I am concerned, each is a valid and well done interpretation of the character--some better than others, but each with it's own flaws. However, my problem is not with the films that have been made, but rather with the films that have NOT been made.

Burton's films were something of a gothic opera, Schumacher's a campy adventure, and Nolan's film is an urban epic. I contend that following Nolan's films--since I look forward to seeing him continue his series--another reboot will be required. The reason for this is because the next series of films needs to combine those aspects that weren't applicable in previous interpretations. I want to see a series that focuses on the fantastical elements of Batman, those things you don't see in the stories that are down to earth.

I want a Batman film where he doesn't NEED body armour because he can dodge bullets. Where we can see Clayfaces and Killer Crocs, and dare I say it, Supermen. I want the film where Robin can be a fifteen year old boy--that came out creepier than intended--and the Gotham sky can be red with a massive yellow moon suspended in the clouds.

I know why we haven't seen these things, and the simple answer is cowardice. Hollywood is populated by cowardly film makers afraid to break the norm. I don't mean to take anything away from the other Batfilms; as I said I like them very much. But when this series is finished, it will be time for someone to have the balls to do something extreme.

The answer is stylization. Stylization so extreme that the audience is able to suspend there disbeliefs, no matter how ridiculous. The notion must be created that the world of Gotham isn't like our world: it's a world with bat demons and plant mistresses and a kid in a robin outfit who jumps off rooftops.

Consider Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. Nobody said "Giant robots are dumb!" because in the context of the film, in the reality of that wordl, they were perfectly acceptable. That's what I imagine for the next series of Batman movies--stylization so complete that the world of Gotham becomes a reality unto itself. I want to be convinced that Batman can fight a man made out of clay.

It is all these fantastic, impossible things that need to be crammed into this hypothetical reboot. That's the world where Batman can be the world's greatest detective, it's finest martial artist, a scientist, a scholar--indeed, the ultimate man. I guess what I'm really saying is that I want the live-action equivalent of Batman: The Animated Series.

I have enjoyed extensively Gothic Batman, and am now enjoying Realistic Urban Batman, but when Nolan finishes his run the time will come for what I consider to be the third component of Batman's three main faces, which is Mythic Batman.

Saint, I never expected to see you post something like this. Dang man, I agree 100% whole.
 
I appreciate the positive response. Here's something I put together (credit to Chosen-1 for the original piece, of course) that depicts what I consider to be the Ultimate Batsuit. This is the sort of costume I imagine in the film I described above.

This kind of costume probably would not fit in Nolan's films, so I am content to stick with the Begins costume (with improvments) since I like it also. As I said, this is for my hypothetical film.

ultimatebatsuitos8.jpg


In the top left corner is the original artwork of "Chosen-1." In the top right corner is a drawing of mine showing the design I use when drawing the comic version of Batman. In the bottom left is my drawing translated into a movie costume by manipulating Chosen-1's art. Honestly, until I did that manip I wasn't convinced my design could be made to look good, but I think it looks fantastic there. However, since I know a lot of people don't like my take on the batcowl, I also did the alternative on the bottom right, which is more traditional. Either one would be sufficient.
 
That's a great design. My only nitpick would be that it looks like the emblem and cape are connected. I'd prefer the cape to be able to nearly enveloped Batman.
 
I prefer that was well, but I've never seen the mechanics of an enveloping cape worked out well enough in real life. In any case, I was only working with what I had--a truly perfect costume would indeed include a cape hat closes down the middle.
 
I'm open to most kinds of re-invention of the Batman character and his world. There seems to be a good deal of members eschewing realism in these threads, and I'm disappointed to see that they are do not seem open to such interpretations of the source material. I don't think that comics (and which issues and graphic novals is one to base a work on for it to become the "best" adaptation?) represent the only medium allowed to make changes to these worlds, and so I have no beef with anyone choosing to make an adaptation that is more "down to earth". It's important though, is that there's no contrast so great that it breaks the suspension of disbelief. This is prevented either by clinging to verisimilitude (and no, it doesn't have to be out of "cowardice") or establishing coherency and self-consistency (which is what Saint is suggesting) in order to make the unreal a reality in itself.
 
Not once did I speak against Nolan's realistic take on the films. Quite the contrary, I think Batman Begins is great. I said as much more than once. I also never said I preferred any approach over any other--which was sort of the point of my entire post--and that I want to see the hypothetical film I described not because it's better but because it hasn't been done yet.

As for cowardice, I stand by my use of the word. Hollywood is full of cowards. I don't mean to say that Nolan is among their number--realism was his choice, and that's fine, I'm enjoying it--but the statement stands. This is why people say a Green Lantern film can't be done, or that Characters X or Y are impossible to do faithfully. Cowardice is the reason we'll never see the Flash fight any of his classic rogues gallery or why we'll never see Darkseid or Doomsday on screen. Far too many film makers are simply afraid to do anything extreme. They want to work with what is safe and what has been done before. They are too afraid to try and building the kind of world I described above. Much easier to water down the source material.

Look at X3, for example. You know why Jean had so little screen time? Why she did nothing but follow Magneto around--for no reason, I might add--for the entire film? Why she didn't look like the Phoenix? Because the people making that movie didn't have the balls to make it right. It would have been too challenging. They were afraid, and not just of that--they were even afraid of making the stupid choices they made stick! "Oh, we better make sure Magneto gets his powers back and Xavier is still alive." No, I would have been much more satisfied if Magneto had been powerless, Xavier dead, and in exchange they had made a film that didn't suck.
 
dude...this thread has rules. you're not following them.

I'm talking to bellze, byt the way.
 
Beelze said:
I'm open to most kinds of re-invention of the Batman character and his world. There seems to be a good deal of members eschewing realism in these threads, and I'm disappointed to see that they are do not seem open to such interpretations of the source material. I don't think that comics (and which issues and graphic novals is one to base a work on for it to become the "best" adaptation?) represent the only medium allowed to make changes to these worlds, and so I have no beef with anyone choosing to make an adaptation that is more "down to earth". It's important though, is that there's no contrast so great that it breaks the suspension of disbelief. This is prevented either by clinging to verisimilitude (and no, it doesn't have to be out of "cowardice") or establishing coherency and self-consistency (which is what Saint is suggesting) in order to make the unreal a reality in itself.

Beezle, this thread is not for discussing or even contemplating that movie adaptations should be allowed to deviate and take different routes with the source-material, if you think so please say so somewhere else and not here or in any other Haven. This is a place for discussing and divulging faithful ideas in order to create a faithful product; the rules state this as a given in the beggining post of this thread, please abide by them. I realise your tone wasn't hostile to us, and that you were merely stating something you feel, but you'd do well to read the rules posted by Herr in the first post and to discontinue if you have similar posts'a'coming like your last one. It is simply not up for debate in here, that is all.

I want to post something now to everyone who would take a care about how I would do a fourth movie in mine and Herr's imagintive Batman franchise:

Movie #4:

  • Dick Grayson is kidnapped by shadowy forces while on his around-the-world sojourn; Batman intercepts a crime cartel in Gotham and rescues a wealthy young lady who he lets escape even though she shoots and kills one of her kidnappers out of self-defence; Ra’s meets Batman in the Cave and set out to discover Grayson and Talia who have both been kidnapped.
  • Bruce and Ra’s travel the world, avoid and defeat several threats, in which Ra’s seemingly perishes and Batman locates Robin; In Gotham, Barbara Gordon is inspired to take on the persona of Batgirl takes on small skirmishes and crimes, aiding the GCPD; Batman rescues Robin but is confronted by Ra’s who explains that the kidnapping was set-up, and offers Batman position of heir, which Bruce refuses; Batman and Ra’s do battle with swords, with Batman emerging successor.
  • Bruce and Grayson return to Gotham, and their relationship takes a turn for the worse; Grayson intercepts when the mysterious ‘Batgirl’ is threatened by serious trouble and discovers that it is Barbara Gordon, who he has been romantically involved with; Batman and Robin are called into action when a new villain, Bane, turns up on the scene, busting out Arkham inmates; Batman and Robin rush to clean up the city, taking on the freed inmates one-by-one; An exhausted Batman is met by Bane in the Bat cave and is defeated, and he’s back broken.
  • Dick Grayson, Leslie Thompkins and Alfred help Bruce on his way to recovery; Grayson and Leslie test the remnants of the chemical ‘Venom’ left behind in the Cave by Bane, and discover it’s physical properties; Bane takes control of Gothams underworld, and is pursued by Robin and the GCPD; Batman begins to use concentrated dosages of ‘Venom’ in order to repair his body and outmatch Bane, much to the dismay of Leslie, Alfred and Dick.
  • Ra’s Al Ghul returns back to the scene and reveals his plan to destroy Gotham with an earthquake; Batman takes the ‘Venom’ in his final act of recovery and teams up with Robin to stop Ra’s from being successful; Robin defeats Bane by disabling the influx of ‘Venom’ into his bloodstream, while Batgirl helps reduce the collateral damage beside the GCPD; Batman takes on Ra’s while under the influence of 'Venom', defeating him, and leaving him to an ambiguous demise.
  • Grayson explains to Batman that he is leaving Gotham to pursue his own crime-fighting career in the neighbouring city, Bludhaven, as Nightwing; Barbara Gordon retired the mantle of Batgirl, realising the danger she put herself in…for now; The city of Gotham is saved, but is in part ruined by the beginnings of the Earthquake, and Batman vows to further protect and help rebuild the city and clean up the criminals and Arkham inmate still roaming free.
Thoughts? Contributions? Ideas?
 

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