BATMAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Herr Logan]

Superman vs. Doomsday will be a new feature length animation film by Bruce Timm, there's is yet no release date set.

Cool. Is it going to cover the entirety, or at least majority, of the 'Death and Life of Superman' story arc? I'm guessing probably not. If it's just a big super-fight, I don't know how worthy that will be. Doomsday didn't really talk in that battle, so if they stay faithful, it will be lacking in substance, and if they have him talk, it will be unfaithful, and therefore fundamentally flawed. If it's a new piece of continuity and that bony gray bastard can talk now, that's different.

The New Frontier (The famous series by Darwyn Cooke, depicting the struggles off Superheroes in the Goldenage against their Goverment), will also be a feature lenght animation film, who's involved is yet unknown. I'm crossing my fingers that Darwyn Cooke will be involved.

Ah.

It's basically DC's reaction to The Avengers movie by Marvel.

Ultimate Avengers movie. Even I found those movies to be entertaining, but nobody should forget that those characters are not, and never could be, the real Avengers. The fact that they'd probably make a movie entitled 'The Avengers' about a government-founded team of "unlikely heroes" makes me sick. They need to keep the two universes separate, at least as far as adapting stories from the good years of Marvel.

The cool thing about the Avengers is that it's a gathering of heroes whose origins are not related (aside from Ant-Man and the Wasp). They met in the field, each on their own initiative, and then decided to maintain an alliance because they were more powerful as a group than by themselves. The other major teams in Marvel (Fantastic Four, X-Men) have similar origins and/or personal relationships before they joined/formed the team. All the original Avengers had in common is that they were superheroes, pure and simple. The Justice League has the same basic premise, and Marvel should hold onto that for at least one team.

Sorry for the digression/rant.

Regarding Knightfall:
A four parter would be best, if it should remain a faithfull adaption of the comics.

Part 1. Introducing Bane and Azrael and establish their motives.

Part 2. Knightfall

Part 3. Knightquest (This would be tricky since this should both have an equal part of J.P. Valley's rampage as Bruce's quest to regainhis strenght and sanity.

Part 4. Knightsend

The reason Knightfall would be the best story to do is simple, becuase it involves so many supporting characters / villians. I'd just love to see them all in animation. The style of the series should imo be something in between TAS and Breyfogle/Aparo's art.

Sounds like a great idea.

I'm not familiar with Breyfogle/Aparo's art.

The next best thing would offcourse be "The Long Halloween" in a Tim Sale animated style.

Agreed.

You know, before I actually read that TPB, but after I'd seen some of Sale's work on other books and various panels from 'The Long Halloween', I thought his art was crap.
After reading 'The Long Halloween' and 'Dark Victory', I realized that his style fits the writing, so in that context, it's okay. Still not great in my opinion, and out of control in some places, but it fits the tone.

Thanks very much for posting, Cobblepot.

 

[Cobblepot]

You know, before I actually read that TPB, but after I'd seen some of Sale's work on other books and various panels from 'The Long Halloween', I thought his art was crap.
After reading 'The Long Halloween' and 'Dark Victory', I realized that his style fits the writing, so in that context, it's okay. Still not great in my opinion, and out of control in some places, but it fits the tone.

Thanks very much for posting, Cobblepot.

I bought some loose issues from TLH and DV and glanced through them, I didn't like Tim Sale artwork at that time. I remember finding it horrible. t:
But like 4 years ago I really started drawing a bit more and appreciating different takes and styles on the same characters, especially the ones that stood out like, D.Cooke, F.Miller (DK) and Mike Mignola.
Then I stumbled accross The Long Halloween trade. I bought it and read it. While I read it, I realized that Tim Sale took his inspiration from lots of european and the older comicbooks. At the end I couldn't stop looking at the picture's, I loved every single pen stroke off it. And after signing to his board it just kept getting better and better. Loeb and Sale are the best at what they are doing.

 

[The Joker]

I'm not familiar with Breyfogle/Aparo's art.

Breyfogle:

Aparo:

 

[Cobblepot]

That Bottom one is also Breyfogle's work.
This is Aparo:

 

[Herr Logan]

Thanks a lot, guys, for the pics and for posting.

I'd also like to see animated art in the style of Matt Wagner and that guy who did 'Year One'.

 

[Herr Logan]

I don't know what's become of Zaphod, but I'll continue throwing out ideas for our movie series anyway.


Our version of 'Batman 2' will take place several months, maybe up to a year, after the events of our version of 'Batman: Year One,' which included almost all the major events of the graphic novel of the same name (does not include the kidnapping and rescue of Gordon's son), plus the Scarecrow and also the Penguin. The police department is still rife with corruption, but not as much as before. The new Commissioner is as corrupt as the last one, and the Batman is keeping his eye on any evidence that can be used to depose him. He is actually making a purposeful effort to put Gordon, who is currently a Captain, in the Commissioner's chair. Several good cops were hired, both detectives (ex. Harvey Bullock) and uniformed officers (ex. Renee Montoya).

The Batman is now established in the minds of at least half the people of Gotham City as a powerful figure who haunts Gotham at night and punishes the wicked. There will be several short interviews on TV with random people on the street giving their thoughts on the Batman. It's sort of like what they did in Raimi's 'Spider-Man' except there will be an actual reporter in the frame, it won't be just for cheap laughs, and there will be more of them and longer, spread out throughout the movie.


By the end of the movie, which would probably be at least a year and a half since the beginning of the movie in the story's timeline, allowing for the long-ass process of charging and prosecuting a smart crime boss, Salvatore "Boss" Maroni will take the witness stand at Carmine Falcone's trial, suddenly whip out a bottle of acid planted by a conspirator of Falcone's, and toss it on District Attorney Harvey Dent, scarring half his face. Like I said before, this will have absolutely nothing to do with the Joker other than the fact that it just so happens that the Joker is being wheeled on a handtruck in a straightjacket through the courthouse hallways outside that courtroom at that that moment and can see in once more guards enter the room. He'll laugh histerically and appreciate the moment, but he won't be part of this particular conspiracy to hurt Dent.

Dent will go to the hospital, and Gordon will report to the Batman that Harvey is horribly scarred, possibly permanently, and in a catatonic state. Soon after, Harvey will disappear from his room, with no explanation for what happened to him-- whether he left on his own or was taken.

Captain Gordon will get promoted yet again during this movie, receiving a fair amount of credit for helping to end the gang war that takes place through most of the film. I'd probably have him be a Chief.



'Batman 3' begins two years after the end of the previous film. Harvey Dent will resurface for the first time on the two-year anniversary of the day he was scarred. I want to spread things out like this to give the slightest bit of credibility to the idea of Lieutenant Gordon becoming Commissioner Gordon in the course of a film series and to make Bruce Wayne, who became the Batman at age 26, any kind of candidate for legally adopting a 15-16 year-old in the third movie. I want Bruce Wayne to be at least 30 by this point. I don't know what the minimum age for adopting someone is, but I want Bruce to be out of his 20's before he either formally adopts Dick Grayson or takes him in as a ward of the state. I don't know if they have wards of the state anymore, but if that's feasible, I'd go with that, since it gives more flexibility.
Oh yeah, Gordon will be the Commissioner of Police of Gotham City by the beginning of the third film, whether that's realistic or not. You gotta remember that they entire department is playing musical chairs since Gordon and the Batman started working in Gotham. People are constantly being made to quit because they're getting caught for corruption, etc. So yeah, Gordon gets fast-tracked to Commissioner when the Mayor (who is probably also corrupt) decides the GCPD has embarrassed him enough.

By the end of the movie, Two-Face and the Riddler-- two major villains of the film, but with no affiliation with each other-- will have been defeated along with their respective gangs by the Batman and Robin. Robin will now be an official ally of the Batman. For the upcoming paragraphs, I want you to keep in mind that not every detail of this will be shown on camera, and that some of the information can be straight-out spoken by someone when it makes more sense to do it that way. The scenes won't take as long as it seems when written.

The Riddler will not be sent to Arkham Asylum. Not the first time he gets arrested, anyway. The portrayal that Zaphod described and that I agreed with does not warrant him being committed to a psych ward just yet. He'll still be recognized as a costumed "freak," though. Having him go to the regular prison will put him in contact with rogues who aren't insane, and that might work better for future ventures.
Because he does come off as somewhat crazy and a little bit unpredictable, Edward Nygma will be segregated from the other arrestees while in jail, but when he's transferred to Blackgate Penitentiary, he waits in the same cage as the others while this new shipment of prisoners are being processed. While he's sitting on a bench, minding his own business, a wiry but tough-looking prisoner walks over to him, complements his shoes and demands that he hand them over. Riddler says hello and tells the prisoner his name. The guy doesn't respond. He then asks if they ever watch or listen to the news in this prison, and the prisoner tells him to shut the hell up and cough up them shoes. Nygma says the prisoner can have his shoes, if he can answer a riddle. He begins to tell this riddle, and slowly the prisoner's face changes to an expression of realization. When Nygma's done telling the Riddle, the prisoner reluctantly apologizes and says he didn't realize who he was, says "no harm no foul, right?" and moves to the other side of the cage. Everyone has been watching this exchange up until now, and when Nygma looks around, smug look on his face, and says, "Anyone who answers correctly can have my shoes," in a sinister tone, and everyone moves just a little farther away from him than they were and try not to look at him. The Riddler has street cred, biatches.

Two-Face will be remanded to the care of Arkham Asylum, home to the Joker and former Professor Jonathan Crane, aka Scarecrow. He will behave himself (other than maybe growling at the Joker, who is taunting him as he passes by) until he gets into his cell and has to make a decision about whether or not he should... I don't know, move his cot to the other side of the room or not... something pretty small. If there's a binary decision to be made, he can't make up his mind without his coin, and he just now realizes he doesn't have his coin, so he starts howling and banging on the door until Dr. Jeremiah Arkham asks the police department to bring the coin so Harvey can calm down. It turns out that the Batman kept the coin after the competency hearing, so he brings it over and tells Harvey he wishes him "good heads," which to Harvey means "good luck."
The next time we see Harvey, either as a cameo or a real player in a future movie, he'll be wearing two halves of different prison uniforms that have been stitched together, in the spirit of the two-styled classy suits he wore while at large. One half will be the regular gray uniform they wear inside, and the other will be the orange uniform prisoners are required to wear any time they leave the premises of their institution for any reason (transfers, court appearances, etc.).

I'm going to have it made very clear by the end of the movie that the gangsters and stick-up men of Gotham City are almost as scared of Robin as they are of the Batman, whether or not he's a young boy in tights, and for good reason. Whoever does Robin's stunts has to be like a gymnast, martial artist and free-runner all in one, because a proper Robin is graceful, fast and all over the place.



In the next movie, or one after that, I want to show Edward Nygma still in Blackgate and how prison life is treating him. I want to show him getting a question mark tattoo on his arm, and yelping and complaining all the way. He's dangerous, and people fear him, but he's no tough guy. He's got a small posse/entourage with him, one member of which is making the tattoo. I haven't decided whether to give them tattoos as well. Gang life in Gotham is so fluid, with people jumping ship and switching teams when their boss gets busted, I'd think these guys would probably avoid getting tattoos that affiliate them with the Joker, Two-Face, Riddler, etc.
Not everyone fears the Riddler, though, and a very large and mean-looking prisoner with a few mean-looking friends comes up to him as the tattoo is being finished to challenge him. He says flat-out that he's not afraid of him and that he heard the Riddler was actually taken down by a little boy in a bird costume (he and his gang were in fact taken down by Robin toward the end of 'Batman 3'). A voice from behind says, "I heard you got taken down by a bird-themed character as well. Got your eyes pecked out and strangled with your own innards. No, wait, that's what everyone else is going to hear tomorrow." Oswald Cobblepot to the rescue! The Penguin, who has a lot of influence in Blackgate, says he's getting Nygma transferred to a cell adjacent to his in a different cell block (the Penguin does not have a roommate, but he does have a hell of a lot of good stuff in his cell, for a convict), and that they've got a lot to talk about. The Riddler is suspicious, since they were at war during the second movie (pretty much every gang was at war with each other), but the Penguin says that's all in the past and they need to think about the future. The guy on the other side of the Penguin's cell will be Deadshot. I don't know where that story is heading-- possibly a large-scale team-up of several of the Batman's rogues, which could be very cool if done properly-- but I want this exchange in here.


What do you think?

 

[Herr Logan]

I think my new ideas about the Rogues being seen in their respective prisons are inspired by my watching a hell of a lot of 'Oz' of late. Still, I think some of these scenes are worthwhile.

 

[Cullen]

If your ideas don't work as a movie series, I think it might make a hell of a television series. Lots of potential depth there.

...

Big help, I know, but y' got to understand, my interest in comics has only now begun to revive from the depths they've fallen into. Gimme enough time and I'll be back to my overwordy self.

 

[Herr Logan]

If your ideas don't work as a movie series, I think it might make a hell of a television series. Lots of potential depth there.

...

Big help, I know, but y' got to understand, my interest in comics has only now begun to revive from the depths they've fallen into. Gimme enough time and I'll be back to my overwordy self.

The comics that are relevant to these hypothetical motion picture ideas have already been printed, at latest two or three years ago, and most of them much earlier than that.

Anyway, I definitely think that Batman is the superhero property that most easily and readily lends itself to be made into an hour-long, live action TV series. Budget-wise, this is the safest bet. Yes, there will be some characters with superpowers and over-the-top technology that requires expensive props and special effects, but overall, this is a show that could really capitalize on common trends without being too expensive. As long as it's done correctly, that is.

Yes, I demand that such a TV show be very, very faithful to the source material, specifically to the early days (the ones where he didn't kill, that is, and I'll take Matt Wagner's take on 'Monster Men' over the original, etc.) and post-Crisis Batman stories. This would be a detective show with plenty of action, spy stuff, psychological drama, great characters and general bad-assery.

Everything I outlined in my movie treatments would be included (were I the one to design the series), but much of it would be dragged out over a longer period of time.
Season 1 would be Year One, but with a lot of other stuff thrown in. During this season, there will be a good amount of flashbacks to Bruce Wayne's travels and training before he became the Batman. This will only occur during the first season, since there's only so much stuff from his past that's actually worth putting in a TV show. This would definitely not resemble that atrocious piece of garbage 'Smallville' in any way, so that means not fabricating a ridiculous amount of his early years in life. I'll fill in some material for his pre-teens and teen years, just like I described for the movies, but that won't involve supervillains or superhero cameos. That will be a good example of the psychological drama aspect, and something damn creepy, when you think about it.
Season 1 will concentrate heavily on "normal" organized crime as well as feature the "freaks" that will become Batman's Rogues Gallery. The over-aching plot surrounds the Batman, A.D.A. Harvey Dent and Lieutenant James Gordon taking down the current GCPD administration and the Falcone Empire. The subsequent seasons will probably focus less on "normal" OC, or at least the over-arching subplots surrounding it won't be as prominent and urgent as in the first season. Commissioner Loeb, Detective Flass and Sergent Branden should be prominent in the first season, but taken out of their positions by the end.

Season 2 will wrap up the Falcone Saga, possibly featuring the Long Halloween story. Two-Face will be introduced here, and with the entire first season featuring Harvey Dent as the first real ally of the Batman (outside of Alfred), that should hit pretty hard, even if a huge portion of the audience knows what will happen to Dent.

Season 3 will introduce and establish Robin. James Gordon should be Commissioner of the GCPD by this season.


This series would feature all the classic and important villains, although I wouldn't introduce R'as Al Ghul or Bane until Season 4.

I definitely want to feature the very first Clayface-- the one without superpowers-- since I find his premise interesting and very creepy, but if I had my way, there would definitely be either at least one other Clayface that had shapeshifting superpowers, or the original one would aquire them in a later appearance (Second Season, probably).
Clayface, Man-Bat, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, and the other hyper-sci/fi supervillains would be featured at the appropriate times (I'd want them spread out a little over the first two seasons).

With a TV series, I don't have to worry about whether or not the most famous or important stories will fit with the plot or not. For example, the Laughing Fish story would not happen in the first season, but it very well could in the second, and the Joker will feature prominently in at least two major episodes in the first.

The tone of this show would be a weird mix of hardboiled detective, CSI-type TV and action/adventure. The Batman would, just like I plan for the movie franchise, have an ever-present inner monologue running. This not only keeps the hardboiled detective aspect prominent but keeps it more consistent with the comics. In the comics, we know what the Batman is thinking; it should be as such in other forms of fiction, too, be it TV, movies or video games.

It could be seen as a live-action version of B:TAS, but darker (not to an extreme degree, just a jump from TVY7 to TV14, or however the ratings work) and more... I don't want to say "realistic," but that's part of what I'm going for. Let me explain so you don't think I'm a hypocrite:
The Batman in that brilliant cartoon always seemed like he was getting beaten up by common thugs, or at least having more trouble than he should have in beating them. That's "unrealistic" in relation to his own abilities and more importantly, inconsistent with his own track record. "Consistent!" That's the word I'm looking for! I also want it to be more in-depth. I want simplified explanations for gadgets and equipment, because guys like me think that's cool, and explanations for how he gets certain things done. I can cut corners in several places (like how does the Batcave become not just a furnished headquarters-- which is explanable-- but a well-built, multi-level base), but for the things that can be explained, I want explanations. That doesn't mean I'll leave out things that can't be explained, it just means we shift the focus onto that which we have excuses for. See what I'm saying?
If someone beats up the Batman, I want a real reason for it. I don't want to see him getting beaten up by a guy who's 3/4 the size of Scarface's henchman Rhino and just as dumb when we know the Batman can run circles around Rhino and make him look helpless. Even in a gang-up fight, if they're coming at him one and a time (which it always was in TAS), he should be on top of things.

When I say "realistic", I absolutely do not mean I'd leave out classic or important things that take a leap of imagination to believe. Nothing major about the Batman mythos (at least the eras that weren't deliberately silly'd up for the Comics Code) should be sacrificed for the sake of "realism," ever.
I would, however, make a much greater effort to make some of the things that happen more reasonable than in the cartoon or very old comics.
Watch the TAS episode 'Christmas with the Joker' and you'll see about a hundred truly ridiculous, implausible and in general ill-conceived aspects that I'd never put in a serious attempt to portray the real Batman. There will be no observatories that suddenly turn into giant death rays with no buildup (if this was a long-term conspiracy where the people working there were replaced and everyone who would ever supervise them were paid off and it took a long time to convert, then it's fine, but no on-the-spot "here's a death ray" crap... we've got to have standards), and no rocket-powered Christmas trees set up in Arkham Asylum in the common areas that the Joker uses to escape. Does that mean there can't be rocket-powered Christmas trees? Heavens no! Of course we'll have those! But they sure as hell won't be just sitting there in Arkham Asylum, and it'll have to have some ways of holding onto it securely and a guidance system...
Okay, maybe we won't have those, but one of the biggest differences will be that the Joker won't spend any time whatsoever in the common area, since he needs to be locked in solitary at all times. Well, at least after the first time he escapes. The Ventriloquist and the Riddler (after being convicted twice or thrice)? Gen pop, with access to common areas. The Joker, Two-Face, Poison Ivy and Zsasz, etc.? Solitary! No Joker and Poison Ivy fighting over the remote control, God dammit... it just doesn't make sense. Scarface and the Riddler fighting over the remote? Now that makes sense, and would be damn funny. Will they watch 'Jeopardy' or 'The Untouchables'? Depends who wants it more, before the orderlies break them up. Ahem, moving on...

What I really mean is I want to fill in gaps with real-life science and decently-conceived pseudoscience. I want to flavor the whole thing with social science and criminology, but I can bend certain rules when necessary. The thing about the villains of Gotham is that they don't really fit real life profiles all that well. What's the answer to that? Do we strip them down so they fit real life profiles? No! We simply say, "This is a new kind of criminal," and make that the basis for the whole Rogues Gallery. Why can the Batman handle these creeps when the police can't? Because he has enough of his own toys to counter the ridiculous and endless amount of toys that the villains have (and no, I'm not sacrificing the villains' arsenals for plausibility, and feck whoever would even suggest such an idea), he's more athletic and formidable than sworn officers, and he can think like they can. My version of the Batman is an expert at profiling, but he will have to rethink the whole thing once the freaks show up and he has to get inside their minds. It'll be fun! At least for the audience... heh.
Seriously, I'd like to snap the necks of everyone who ever even considered suggesting that they turn the Joker into, not just a "typical" serial killer, but their own ignorant, childish, unspeakably inaccurate, cliched, idiotic conception of what a serial killer is. It's unforgivable, and it absolutely means that they aren't fans of the Joker. You cannot be a fan of the Joker and want to see him turned into a random psychopath who lurks in alleys and carves people's faces into smiles. I've thought it through, and you just can't, and feck whoever thinks you can. The Joker either is the Joker or it's a fake. The same goes for the Scarecrow; he either wears the costume, or he's not Scarecrow. Same with the Penguin; he either always carries an umbrella and wears a tuxedo most of the time, or he's not the Penguin, whether or not you make the low-brow, ignorant decision to make him a "British arms dealer." Same with Two-Face; he either wears a suit that has two distinct colors and/or patterns on either side, split down the middle, and always obeys his coin on the first try, or at least two out of three, or it's not Two-Face!
There's no excuse for blurring those lines when it's a movie or a TV show. Doesn't matter how much time you have to tell the story. You either want to use the characters or you want to lie to the audience. It's approximately that simple.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on a Batman TV series for the moment, and I strongly believe that's doable.


Thanks for posting, Cullen.

 

[Zaphod]

I'm not dead, merely sleeping...

Honestly though, I will return. I care to much about this not to, so I apologise for now and say: 'Be patient'.

 

[Herr Logan]

I'm not dead, merely sleeping...

Honestly though, I will return. I care to much about this not to, so I apologise for now and say: 'Be patient'.

Dammit, you told me weeks ago you had some stuff about Movies 1 & 2 to talk about, and then nothing.

Feh. I don't blame you. I guess I just need someone to push me along at this point, now that I'm barely motivated to do anything anymore.



Which sounds like a better idea to you, the Batman movie franchise, or a Batman TV series that encapsulates almost all the same ideas for the movies but spread out further?

 

[Zaphod]

Which sounds like a better idea to you, the Batman movie franchise, or a Batman TV series that encapsulates almost all the same ideas for the movies but spread out further?

I'd still want to retain this trilogy of ours, but a TV sereis which fills in the gaps between the movies would be sweet. Would be a good way to show how Bruce deals with the scarring and dissapearence of Harvey between Movie's 2 and 3, aswell as developing on some of Batman's other more minor cases and developing the crime-fighting relationship between him and Robin after Movie 3. What do you think? Strike a balance?

 

[Herr Logan]

I'd still want to retain this trilogy of ours, but a TV sereis which fills in the gaps between the movies would be sweet. Would be a good way to show how Bruce deals with the scarring and dissapearence of Harvey between Movie's 2 and 3, aswell as developing on some of Batman's other more minor cases and developing the crime-fighting relationship between him and Robin after Movie 3. What do you think? Strike a balance?

That sounds good.

I'd also want that revolutionary video game, of course, which would also fill in a few gaps between the events in each movie as well.

 

[Herr Logan]

Depending on how much time can be designated for the Joker's crimes in Zaphod's and my 'Batman 2,' I'd like to throw in one scene-- that's representative of several crimes in the story-- that shows the Joker pulling off a silly, ridiculous robbery or act of vandalism or whatnot in which no one gets seriously hurt, but there was plenty of opportunity to help people. The history of the Joker has him alternating between consciencesless killer and mischeivous prankster. I want to show him acting as both, which will be another huge way of keeping law enforcement off balance and confused. It's a perfect example of how unpredictable he is. People will always be wondering, if they get confronted with him, will he and his hired goons play some harmless prank on them or will they be shot, burned by acid, bludgeoned to death with a giant mallet or exposed to a gas that will make them die laughing and leave and hideous, grinning corpse.

Does that sound interesting? I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to soften the Joker's image, and his primary M.O. will be the one where lots of people get hurt, or are intended to get hurt (the Batman intervenes in several of his crimes, both shown and not shown, over the course of the story). If anything, it makes him more twisted and scary; to my mind, at least. In the history of the Joker that I was talking about, the alternation between different M.O.s and levels of violence was due to editorial mandates at different periods of time that amounted to censorship, and he didn't behave in such radically different ways under the same writer. He wasn't truly the same character in all respects. In this story, he'd be the same character all the way through, but pulling a giant mind-f*** on everybody to keep them even more freaked out. Again, most of his overt crimes will actually endanger lives, but once in a while, he does something silly with no real consequences (you know, other than the trauma of being held up by a known killer...), just to shake Gotham and the Batman up.

Thoughts, please?

 

[Herr Logan]

Pleeeaaaase?

 

[Zev]

Depending on how much time can be designated for the Joker's crimes in Zaphod's and my 'Batman 2,' I'd like to throw in one scene-- that's representative of several crimes in the story-- that shows the Joker pulling off a silly, ridiculous robbery or act of vandalism or whatnot in which no one gets seriously hurt, but there was plenty of opportunity to help people. The history of the Joker has him alternating between consciencesless killer and mischeivous prankster. I want to show him acting as both, which will be another huge way of keeping law enforcement off balance and confused. It's a perfect example of how unpredictable he is. People will always be wondering, if they get confronted with him, will he and his hired goons play some harmless prank on them or will they be shot, burned by acid, bludgeoned to death with a giant mallet or exposed to a gas that will make them die laughing and leave and hideous, grinning corpse.

Does that sound interesting? I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to soften the Joker's image, and his primary M.O. will be the one where lots of people get hurt, or are intended to get hurt (the Batman intervenes in several of his crimes, both shown and not shown, over the course of the story). If anything, it makes him more twisted and scary; to my mind, at least. In the history of the Joker that I was talking about, the alternation between different M.O.s and levels of violence was due to editorial mandates at different periods of time that amounted to censorship, and he didn't behave in such radically different ways under the same writer. He wasn't truly the same character in all respects. In this story, he'd be the same character all the way through, but pulling a giant mind-f*** on everybody to keep them even more freaked out. Again, most of his overt crimes will actually endanger lives, but once in a while, he does something silly with no real consequences (you know, other than the trauma of being held up by a known killer...), just to shake Gotham and the Batman up.

Thoughts, please?

It sounds a little like the scene in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, where Joker used one of those "Bang!" flag-guns to intimidate an underling, then shot him with it like a spear-gun.

 

[The Joker]

Depending on how much time can be designated for the Joker's crimes in Zaphod's and my 'Batman 2,' I'd like to throw in one scene-- that's representative of several crimes in the story-- that shows the Joker pulling off a silly, ridiculous robbery or act of vandalism or whatnot in which no one gets seriously hurt, but there was plenty of opportunity to help people. The history of the Joker has him alternating between consciencesless killer and mischeivous prankster. I want to show him acting as both, which will be another huge way of keeping law enforcement off balance and confused. It's a perfect example of how unpredictable he is. People will always be wondering, if they get confronted with him, will he and his hired goons play some harmless prank on them or will they be shot, burned by acid, bludgeoned to death with a giant mallet or exposed to a gas that will make them die laughing and leave and hideous, grinning corpse.

Does that sound interesting? I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to soften the Joker's image, and his primary M.O. will be the one where lots of people get hurt, or are intended to get hurt (the Batman intervenes in several of his crimes, both shown and not shown, over the course of the story). If anything, it makes him more twisted and scary; to my mind, at least. In the history of the Joker that I was talking about, the alternation between different M.O.s and levels of violence was due to editorial mandates at different periods of time that amounted to censorship, and he didn't behave in such radically different ways under the same writer. He wasn't truly the same character in all respects. In this story, he'd be the same character all the way through, but pulling a giant mind-f*** on everybody to keep them even more freaked out. Again, most of his overt crimes will actually endanger lives, but once in a while, he does something silly with no real consequences (you know, other than the trauma of being held up by a known killer...), just to shake Gotham and the Batman up.

Thoughts, please?

I like that idea. Because it adds a real element of unpredictability to the Joker's character. Will he frighten someone with a mere bang flag gun, or will he actually shoot them point blank in the head??

Remember the 'Christmas with the Joker' episode, where he gave Batman a lovely wrapped christmas gift. Robin was shouting at Batman not to open it, but if he didn't, then Joker was going to drop Commissioner Gordon, Summer Gleeson, and Bullock into a vat of acid. So Batman opened it slowly. And out came a jack in the box type hand, which slammed a cream pie in his face.

Joker broke out into a fit of laughter, and thought it was hilarious to see the grim, dark Batman being humiliated like that.

So yes, having the Joker do some harmless pranks, as well as lethal ones would be a great idea IMO.

 

[Herr Logan]

It sounds a little like the scene in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, where Joker used one of those "Bang!" flag-guns to intimidate an underling, then shot him with it like a spear-gun.

There would definitely be Bang-flag guns in this movie. I'm not sure if I'd have it be a spear gun or not. If so, it would be done in the same way as BB:ROTJ, which it being a joke at first and then a deadly threat.

Thanks for commenting.

 

[Herr Logan]

I like that idea. Because it adds a real element of unpredictability to the Joker's character. Will he frighten someone with a mere bang flag gun, or will he actually shoot them point blank in the head??

What's this "or" we've got here? Why not have both?

Remember the 'Christmas with the Joker' episode, where he gave Batman a lovely wrapped christmas gift. Robin was shouting at Batman not to open it, but if he didn't, then Joker was going to drop Commissioner Gordon, Summer Gleeson, and Bullock into a vat of acid. So Batman opened it slowly. And out came a jack in the box type hand, which slammed a cream pie in his face.

Joker broke out into a fit of laughter, and thought it was hilarious to see the grim, dark Batman being humiliated like that.

God, that was such a messed up episode, but yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about, except it won't have the feel of the Batman and Joker having been long-time foes. Still, there should definitely be a cream pie with the Batman's name on it. Hell, maybe the Joker should give him an elaborately decorated birthday cake that explodes while wearing a "birthday clown" suit. Oh, the possibilities are endless.

So yes, having the Joker do some harmless pranks, as well as lethal ones would be a great idea IMO.

I thought you'd like that. Thanks for commenting.

 

[Zaphod]

For an idea on what the Batman television sereis would look like, think of the production quality evident on 'Battlestar Galactica', 'Lost', 'CSI' and '24'. The show would borrow most evidently from 'CSI' since it would be a detective drama in many respects, with plenty of scenes and stories centralling around Batman conducting investigations in need of his criminology and forensic talents.

The mini-sereis, which would come before the first movie (or would tie in with it? Herr, any thoughts on this?) would be like 'Lost' in terms of structure; flashbacks would maintain intrigue throughout the episodes, allowing the story to be fleshed out in and out of Gotham.

 

[Zaphod]

For 'Batman: Year One' there needs to be a scene of Bruce analysing a sample of the fear toxin in the Batcave, and discovering the components used in it's make-up (a'la, extended montage in the lab, 'CSI' style), and I would definately want a scene of Batman paying a visit to Leslie in her clinic: The scene would play out something like this:

Leslie sifts through papers and documents as she sits fixatedly at her desk in the darkened office of her clinic in downtown Crime Alley; the room is dark, and she reads by lamplight. A breeze from the window sends some of her papers blowing and she gets up distractedly, going over to the window and peering out through the billowing blinds at the squalor of the backstreet below: nothing. Only a cat going through some garbage and the wind rustling garbage on the road below. She closes the window and makes her way backover to the table..her papers are gone! Or, at least one them is: the psychoanalysis sheet she was reading on 'schizoid personality disorder' is no longer there (by this point, it would be made clear that Leslie has suspected that the disspapearence of Bruce, and the appearence of Batman, have something in common. Her suspicions are amplified by the fact that she understood Bruce's distubed psyche before he left Gotham in the mini-sereis). She leans back in her chair, for a second she looks fearful, but then a calm and complacency comes over her, still, she speaks somewhat tentatively, but not fearfully: "I knew it was you", she says, to no one, to shadows, to emptiness. But a response comes back at her, low and gruff, but human sounding: "I guess I'm not the only detective". Leslie smiles, somewhat sorrowfully.

Or something like that...

I think a scene like this, with Leslie characterised accurately, could be both creepy and touching.

 

[Herr Logan]

For an idea on what the Batman television sereis would look like, think of the production quality evident on 'Battlestar Galactica', 'Lost', 'CSI' and '24'. The show would borrow most evidently from 'CSI' since it would be a detective drama in many respects, with plenty of scenes and stories centralling around Batman conducting investigations in need of his criminology and forensic talents.

It would probably seem like a combination between 'CSI' (of which I've admittedly seen very little) and 'Angel' in tone and subject matter. There should be a good deal of action in dark settings blended in with both old-school hardboiled detective stories and detective programming dealing with advanced criminalistics methods. I don't know what the plots are generally like on 'CSI,' but that won't be the goal. On the special occasions when there's a villain who actually doesn't want to take credit for his crimes (that describes pretty much nobody in the Rogues Gallery) and tries to cover his tracks like a normal person, the story might reflect shades of 'Monk,' as the Batman is just as clever and obsessive as Adrian Monk and tends to outsmart criminals equally as intelligent as the ones on that show.

The mini-sereis, which would come before the first movie (or would tie in with it? Herr, any thoughts on this?) would be like 'Lost' in terms of structure; flashbacks would maintain intrigue throughout the episodes, allowing the story to be fleshed out in and out of Gotham.

The mini-series should probably come out simultaneously, or like a week before, or something like that. It would definitely be a big cross-promotion thing.

I would have parts of the miniseries taken straight from the movie. There should be several childhood flashbacks in 'Year One.' The miniseries should probably play out linearly, although it could be a semi-flashback format where Bruce is recounting his experiences to Alfred, or possibly Leslie.

After the flashback are over, I'd want to end the miniseries with his vigilante "test drive," or at least most of the shots in that sequence, that leaves him wounded and crying out for a sign. That part would also be right out of the movie. Bruce, after intervening in a street crime while in plainclothes and disguise makeup and getting stabbed by criminals and shot by cops (who are also criminals) would be sitting in his father's study, bleeding to death and vowing not to use the intercom to call Alfred until he saw his sign that would tell him what he needs to do to get his Mission on track. Finally, a bat with a defective sense of sonar comes crashing through the window and frightens Bruce for the very last time. "A bat. I will become a bat." He presses the intercom button. Series over.


If anybody had any interest in seeing the Batman movie they knew was being promoted by the miniseries, seeing the miniseries end like that would make them insane with anticipation. They'd be like "Dammit, I want to see him put on the costume!!" One week later, the theaters are packed.



Thanks for posting, Zaphod.

 

[Herr Logan]

For 'Batman: Year One' there needs to be a scene of Bruce analysing a sample of the fear toxin in the Batcave, and discovering the components used in it's make-up (a'la, extended montage in the lab, 'CSI' style),

Of course. We don't need anyone like Lucious Fox (who isn't a scientist in the real mythos) to do this stuff for the Batman. He's supposed to be highly trained in criminalistics and chemistry (even if most of it is autodidactic rather than formal training).

and I would definately want a scene of Batman paying a visit to Leslie in her clinic: The scene would play out something like this:

Leslie sifts through papers and documents as she sits fixatedly at her desk in the darkened office of her clinic in downtown Crime Alley; the room is dark, and she reads by lamplight. A breeze from the window sends some of her papers blowing and she gets up distractedly, going over to the window and peering out through the billowing blinds at the squalor of the backstreet below: nothing. Only a cat going through some garbage and the wind rustling garbage on the road below. She closes the window and makes her way backover to the table..her papers are gone! Or, at least one them is: the psychoanalysis sheet she was reading on 'schizoid personality disorder' is no longer there (by this point, it would be made clear that Leslie has suspected that the disspapearence of Bruce, and the appearence of Batman, have something in common. Her suspicions are amplified by the fact that she understood Bruce's distubed psyche before he left Gotham in the mini-sereis). She leans back in her chair, for a second she looks fearful, but then a calm and complacency comes over her, still, she speaks somewhat tentatively, but not fearfully: "I knew it was you", she says, to no one, to shadows, to emptiness. But a response comes back at her, low and gruff, but human sounding: "I guess I'm not the only detective". Leslie smiles, somewhat sorrowfully.

Or something like that...

Not sure how I feel about the Batman simply stealing Bruce's psych file and disappearing, but this can be reworked a little bit.

First off, I want there to be a question mark whenever the term "schizoid personality disorder" is used on the topic of Bruce Wayne. There's no way to know for sure if that applies, since real people with that condition usually don't become experts in pretending to be amiable playboys among other personality traits. I don't want to be caught in a blatant inaccuracy and merely throw out psychological terminology loosely to give the movie more credibility as a "serious story." But yes, the term should be mentioned, but in a theoretical capacity.

Maybe when Leslie turns back to her desk, the Batman could actually be standing there, looking at his file. Leslie can make some comment about "giving an old woman a heart attack."


I'm not sure how the rest of the exchange should play out, but that's my editing so far.

I think a scene like this, with Leslie characterised accurately, could be both creepy and touching.

I agree.

Thanks a lot for posting, Zaphod.

 

[The Joker]

What's this "or" we've got here? Why not have both?

Fine, we'll have both. Nothing is too good for the Clown Prince of crime

God, that was such a messed up episode

In what way??

Still, there should definitely be a cream pie with the Batman's name on it. Hell, maybe the Joker should give him an elaborately decorated birthday cake that explodes while wearing a "birthday clown" suit. Oh, the possibilities are endless.

Btw, I'm sure it's been mentioned, but what would the Joker's scheme/motive be in the movie??

 

[Herr Logan]

Fine, we'll have both. Nothing is too good for the Clown Prince of crime

Of course.

In what way??

Look, I'm not someone who demands perfect "realism" from superhero stories for them to be enjoyable, but when the Joker somehow has a rocket-propelled Christmas tree in the middle of Arkham Asylum and escapes while riding it safely, that's where I draw the line. There's no ingenuity in that escape, because it's just plain bullsh1t.

My other main problem with the episode is Robin's constant whining about how the Batman wants to keep Gotham safe on Christmas. He actually asks if the Batman truly believes anyone would commit crimes on Christmas. I'd have smacked him straight out of his tights if I was wearing the cowl... wake up and smell reality, Robin! This is Gotham Goddamn City... you'll be lucky if the crime rate goes down at all on Christmas.

Btw, I'm sure it's been mentioned, but what would the Joker's scheme/motive be in the movie??

His motive is to get attention, put smiles on people's faces, and take lots of money and valuables.

I haven't come up with a solid scheme, but it will all kick off with the Joker hijacking several TV stations' signals and announcing that he'll kill a specific person at exactly 12am tomorrow night. Then he'll do it, or rather, the man will die (I'm open to having it be like in the comics, where he injected the victim with time-release poison ahead of time). His broadcast should include a few jokes, and a live (so to speak) example of how his special ingredient works. He may present it as a public service, claiming that this town is too full of sour and overly serious people. Time to smile, Gotham, even if Uncle Joker has to force-feed you his special laugh medicine.
In the broadcast, the Joker should be standing in front of a man who's either strapped to a chair or stuck in a gas chamber, and administer his Smilex via injection or gas. The man will be terrified and beg for his life at first, and then will start laughing uncontrollably. While he convulses violently with laughter, his facial muscles will contort into the famous rictus smile and Joker will have made his point.

Again, for his long-term plans, I haven't decided, but the Joker will start out with public announcements and move on to public appearances.


I just read the novel 'Batman: Inferno,' by Alex Irvine, and it portrays the Joker as having superhuman abilities such as superhuman strength, resilience and I think night vision, granted by his chemical alteration. His DNA was analyzed and said to be markedly different from a normal human's.
I'm thinking I may give just an implication of extra strength and durability in my story, too, without any DNA scans or real discussion. It would probably just be the Batman remarking on how strong and tough the Joker seems, for someone who doesn't seem (judging from their first physical skirmish), and not knowing what the reason is. It'll be ambivalent-- either the chemicals made him stronger or the insanity does the same, or both. Either way, the Joker has usually been a match for the Batman in the comics in a fight, and he clearly isn't nearly as trained or experienced as the Batman is. I want that reflected in my movie/series, and by just adding a note about how he's faster and stronger than the average criminal the Batman has faced, that will lessen the implausability of an untrained fighter giving the Batman trouble in a fight.

Two-Face has also held his own in fights with the Batman in comics, to some extent. I'll attribute that to him being insane, huge and in extremely good physical shape (he's even got a weight set at the office, or he did in 'Year One'). I'm not trying to pass out extra superpowers to people, but I'm okay with there being an implied possibility with the Joker, just to keep the physical combat in perspective when the Joker doesn't go down straight away.