The Dark Knight Batman's Competition in 2008

[JStorm]

'Norman can argue his way out of a wet-paperbag.

 

[StorminNorman]

'Norman can argue his way out of a wet-paperbag.

It helps that I can't stand being told I am wrong

 

[JStorm]

It helps that I can't stand being told I am wrong

I could never tell you that you were wrong.

Through name association - I's think we's phamily.

 

[StorminNorman]

I could never tell you that you were wrong.

Through name association - I's think we's phamily.

:heart:

I guess that makes you like SpinyNorman's second cousin?

 

[JStorm]

:heart:

I guess that makes you like SpinyNorman's second cousin?

He's your cousin, on your mother's side. So I guess I am cousin's, with him.

 

[StorminNorman]

He's your cousin, on your mother's side. So I guess I am cousin's, with him.

Its...so...beautiful...

 

[Visionary]

If you adjust for interest - Batman '89 reached those numbers.

Again - the Matrix WAS a Super Hero Franchise. And it made 283.

Spider-Man was the ONLY universally accepted Superhero movie oh high quality with no baggage since Batman 89 too. Batman Begins had to run from the large shadow of Batman Forever and Robin. People now look at the series as one of quality. This will be huge.

I'm talking Box Office numbers that's accounted for, not made up numbers that's impossible to track.

Matrix was no more a comic book film than Terminator 2 or Predator. Matrix was not a Super Hero Franchise. Superheroes Movie Franchise to most people mean based on a comic book. Which The Matrix was not, no matter how many times they jumped across rooftops.

Quality doesn't mean you're going to make 300M domestically.

It helps that I can't stand being told I am wrong

Oh, I am telling you that you're wrong, The Matrix is not a comic book film. It's a Sci-Fi film, like Star Wars, Alien, Predator, etc. And like those movies it doesn't have a blueprint to follow already in print and illustrations or a fanbase before the film was made.

 

[StorminNorman]

I'm talking Box Office numbers that's accounted for, not made up numbers that's impossible to track.

Matrix was no more a comic book film than Terminator 2 or Predator. Matrix was not a Super Hero Franchise. Superheroes Movie Franchise to most people mean based on a comic book. Which The Matrix was not, no matter how many times they jumped across rooftops.

Yes it does. People associate that sort of action hero AS a Super Hero. It has nothing to do with comics. The Incredibles is considered a Superhero film - wheres the comic? Hancock is a Superhero film - no comic. The Matrix WAS a Super Hero film and it was perceived as such - even if people didn't label it so.

Also - its not fair for you to ignore the incredible success of Batman '89 simply because the economy was different. If you aren't willing to take Inflation into consideration - then anyone predicting Indiana Jones 400 Mill box office (or, hell, 350 Mil) is a loon because it averaged about 200 Mil per film.

Quality doesn't mean you're going to make 300M domestically.

Of course not. But Quality + Budget + Marketing + Huge Fan Base + Hype + Incredibly Highly Regarded Prequel = Very Possible 300 Mil.

Oh, I am telling you that you're wrong, The Matrix is not a comic book film. It's a Sci-Fi film, like Star Wars, Aliens, Predator, etc. And like those movies it doesn't have a blueprint to follow or a fanbase before the film was made.

The Matrix is an ACTION film. Star Wars is a Western. Aliens and Predator are Horror. Or one could easily argue it as such.

The Matrix films are far more similar to The Dark Knight than they are Fantastic Four. Both are dark, gritty, action packed films that deal with 3 dimensional characters with a highly respected cast with blockbuster directors.

In fact - one could argue - that The Dark Knight takes all the plussed of The Matrix, and doubles them having a better cast, a more recognizable protagonist, one of the most recognizable antagonist in American HISTORY, and a better director.

I don't get why you seem to view comic films as a curse? Its incredibly curious. People do not dismiss (as you describe) "comic films" because they have a history of stories printed on colored paper. They are quick to dismiss campy, bad comic films (the majority of them) because they are...well campy, bad films.

Spider-Man proved that America has no beef with Super Heroes.

 

[Mr. Socko]

The Matrix was an action movie. One could argue a "Super Hero Movie". In fact, WB saw it as a "Comic Book Movie".

Again - Spider-Man made 300 Mil. In fact, it made more!

Conversely, the Spider-Man series started off with incredible numbers. The first set several box office records. It's sequel, which is generally considered superior, made $30 Million less. Third made more than the second but didn't reach the numbers of the first, domestically.

Basically, if TDK is to be the biggest film of the summer as many of us predict, it's predecessor to sequel ratio will have to be far far greater than that of Spider-Man's...which did not increase at all.

In this respect, they're not comparable in box office as Spider-Man started off tremendously then dropped numbers with it's sequels. On the other hand, Batman Begins started off 'decent' and is expected to increase hugely with it's sequels. Your argument with Matrix's increase, is definitely the best one to use. Revolution's numbers compared to the first were incredible.

 

[StorminNorman]

Conversely, the Spider-Man series started off with incredible numbers. The first set several box office records. It's sequel, which is generally considered superior, made $30 Million less. Third made more than the second but didn't reach the numbers of the first, domestically.

Basically, if TDK is to be the biggest film of the summer as many of us predict, it's predecessor to sequel ratio will have to be far far greater than that of Spider-Man's...which did not increase at all.

In this respect, they're not comparable in box office as Spider-Man started off tremendously then dropped numbers with it's sequels. On the other hand, Batman Begins started off 'decent' and is expected to increase hugely with it's sequels. Your argument with Matrix's increase, is definitely the best one to use. Revolution's numbers compared to the first were incredible.

See - I think its fair to compare Batman Begins with Spider-Man numbers wise, simply because Batman Begins wasn't seen as an origin film by the general public. It was still haunted by Batman and Robin.

Spider-Man was able to ride a pure hype with no baggage.

But, as I said, I find the tone of The Dark Knight and the overall film is more comparable to The Matrix than even Spider-Man.

 

[Wedge A.]

He is stating that Indiana Jones has huge uber box office potential, in spite of being a 20 year dead franchise - when all the trends show otherwise.

Not Rocky Balboa nor Live Free or Die Hard nor Rambo set the box office a flame. Why? Its not because of the quality of the movie - because by all accounts these recent movies are among the top in the film franchise. These franchises, however, are dead.

There actually isn't a definitive trend. Star Wars and Live Free Or Die Hard were successfull resurrections, while Rambo And Rocky Balboa were not. It can go either way, and since Indiana Jones was only behind Star Wars in terms of gross, I can imagine it making close to the most money.

Now yes - Indiana Jones was a bigger movie franchise. But it should be also noted that Batman out grossed The Last Crusade.

Not worldwide. I know you said you only pay attention to domestic totals, but let's not be ignorant.

Indiana Jones will not flop. It is not, however, a 400 Million Dollar movie. Nor do I think it is a 350 Million Dollar movie. Its simply another installment in a film franchise most considered dead 10 years ago.

First of all, due to inflation, Indiana Jones could end up grossing the equivelant of it's predecessors at the box office, maybe even more. Secondly, Indiana Jones has never been dead. People have been waiting for this sequel, it's not like Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is just appearing out of the blue.

And in the end - it is not a question of whether out of 100 people more people are excited for Indy over Rambo or Rocky. The true question is how many out of 100 movie goers are more excited about Indy than The Dark Knight. I will put money on more of them being psyched about the latter.

Moot.

 

[StorminNorman]

There actually isn't a definitive trend. Star Wars and Live Free Or Die Hard were successfull resurrections, while Rambo And Rocky Balboa were not. It can go either way, and since Indiana Jones was only behind Star Wars in terms of gross, I can imagine it making close to the most money.

Comparing Star Wars to any other sort of film is foolish. Star Wars ascends simply being a movie franchise.

I think you can consider all the films you mentioned successful resurrections. Live Free Or Die Hard, however, it still only made 134 Mil. A far stones throw from the 300 Million some are projecting as a LOW total for Indiana Jones.

Also - I am curious as to why you think Live Free or Die Hard is successful and Rocky Balboa is not - considering Rocky Balboa was a critical success and grossed more money.

Not worldwide. I know you said you only pay attention to domestic totals, but let's not be ignorant.

...? Again - in America - Batman'89 out preformed Indiana Jones. Since I am arguing about domestic numbers - its not being ignorant. Its being...well...correct.

First of all, due to inflation, Indiana Jones could end up grossing the equivelant of it's predecessors at the box office, maybe even more. Secondly, Indiana Jones has never been dead. People have been waiting for this sequel, it's not like Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is just appearing out of the blue.

There has been a rather small following for Indiana Jones sequel. There was no great outcry. Indiana Jones is considered dead by most of the general audience. I don't think you could say with any great certainty at this point that Indiana Jones will gross the equivalent of the past films. Also - it should be noted - none of the Indiana Jones sequels grossed as much as the original - even when Indiana Jones was a relevant property.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I enjoyed Batman'89 far more than Last Crusade. Then again, the former is my favorite Batman movie and the latter is my least favorite Indiana Jones movie. So that wouldn't be saying too much. Atm I am looking forward to Dark Knight more than Crystal Skulls but naturally, as we haven't gotten a single second of footage from Indy 4.

 

[Wedge A.]

Comparing Star Wars to any other sort of film is foolish. Star Wars ascends simply being a movie franchise.

I think you can consider all the films you mentioned successful resurrections. Live Free Or Die Hard, however, it still only made 134 Mil. A far stones throw from the 300 Million some are projecting as a LOW total for Indiana Jones.

Also - I am curious as to why you think Live Free or Die Hard is successful and Rocky Balboa is not - considering Rocky Balboa was a critical success and grossed more money.

The first Rocky film won an Oscar and grossed $117 million domestically. Rocky Balboa, despite a handful of good reviews, grossed $70 million domestically. I don't why you think it made more money.

...? Again - in America - Batman'89 out preformed Indiana Jones. Since I am arguing about domestic numbers - its not being ignorant. Its being...well...correct.

Well, nothing personal, I just feel Indiana Jones is being given due credit. Batman grossed more in the United States, but not worldwide. I'm just saying. The 'ignornace' bit was a bit off place, so I apologize.

There has been a rather small following for Indiana Jones sequel. There was no great outcry. Indiana Jones is considered dead by most of the general audience. I don't think you could say with any great certainty at this point that Indiana Jones will gross the equivalent of the past films. Also - it should be noted - none of the Indiana Jones sequels grossed as much as the original - even when Indiana Jones was a relevant property.

Indiana Jones is certainly not considered 'dead' by the general public. The general public doesn't know the last time an Indiana Jones movie came out, but probably watched that home, regardless. The Indiana Jones series was brought back to life through DVD, so it's not like they've been completely forgotten.

Everyone knows who Indiana Jones is. It's not like a group of people go to the movie theater with plans to see it, then turn away when they realize there hasn't been an installment in nineteen years.

You're right, I can't say for certain that Indiana Jones IV will gross the equivelant of past films, or more than any other film this year, but I can give an educated guess. I've stated my reasons numerous times as to why Indiana Jones IV will make a lot of money. They're logical reasons, much like the logical reasons behind The Dark Knight making a lot of money. The whole point I'm trying to prove is that the chances Indiana Jones will gross less than $300 million are very slim. I don't know what you have against the series, but I guess we'll just have to see in May.

 

[StorminNorman]

The first Rocky film won an Oscar and grossed $117 million domestically. Rocky Balboa, despite a handful of good reviews, grossed $70 million domestically. I don't why you think it made more money.

I think that Rocky Balboa made more money than Live Free or Die Hard because...it made more money than Live Free or Die Hard.

Rocky Balboa grossed 70 Mil off a 23 Mil budget. Live Free Or Die Hard made 134 Mil off a 110 Mil Budget. Rocky grossed more money.

Well, nothing personal, I just feel Indiana Jones is being given due credit. Batman grossed more in the United States, but not worldwide. I'm just saying. The 'ignornace' bit was a bit off place, so I apologize.

But when I am arguing about the United States, and you KNOW I am arguing about the US Box Office - I don't know how World Wide numbers are all that relevant. Its not like I am bashing Indiana Jones here - I have said it will be successful, and I have said its past films HAVE been successful - where I differ with Indi fans are when they predict orgasmic amounts of money.

Indiana Jones is certainly not considered 'dead' by the general public. The general public doesn't know the last time an Indiana Jones movie came out, but probably watched that home, regardless. The Indiana Jones series was brought back to life through DVD, so it's not like they've been completely forgotten.

The Indiana Jones series is as much alive as the Rocky Balboa, Die Hard, Rambo series were. I simply see far far far more similarities here than with Star Wars.

Everyone knows who Indiana Jones is. It's not like a group of people go to the movie theater with plans to see it, then turn away when they realize there hasn't been an installment in nineteen years.

I think everyone knows who Rocky and Rambo are. I don't think people go to a movie theater without a pretty good idea of what movie they are going to see. I don't think they are going to turn away when they realize there hasn't been an installment in 19 years - I am just wondering if a 20 year old franchise will get the 16-24 year olds to the theater.

And to an extent - I am going to use the Hype to prove my point.

Cloverfield's thread in the General Movies Forum had the same amount of posts in December as Indiana Jones has now. (It wouldn't be fair to compare the Cloverfield numbers now since much of it is reviews and sequel talk). Now this is in spite of the fact the Indiana Jones forum opened over TWO YEARS before Cloverfields.

If you can't get ungodly attention for Indiana Jones in a website dedicated to fanboys - how can you get that attention from the general audience when you are facing fresh properties - like Iron Man and Hancock?

You're right, I can't say for certain that Indiana Jones IV will gross the equivelant of past films, or more than any other film this year, but I can give an educated guess. I've stated my reasons numerous times as to why Indiana Jones IV will make a lot of money. They're logical reasons, much like the logical reasons behind The Dark Knight making a lot of money. The whole point I'm trying to prove is that the chances Indiana Jones will gross less than $300 million are very slim. I don't know what you have against the series, but I guess we'll just have to see in May.

I have nothing AGAINST the series. I think 300 Million is a fair estimate.

I do have a problem when people project it to be a 400 Million dollar machine - or when people assume it will be the number one film - or when people assume it is THE film to beat this summer.

I think Indiana Jones has as good a chance at 300 Million - as TDK as at making 301 Mil.

 

[StorminNorman]

Apparently I have the second most posts in this thread.

Advanced Dark has most - in fact he has exactly 666 posts in this thread!

But then again, who counts Advanced Dark?

 

[Nightwing1977]

Yes, but nolan is the one who translated the character to film correctly. Burton and Schumacer gave Batman a bad name. B89 wasn't batman, neither were the other three. Nolan nailed the character.

Let not go there. I may prefer Nolan's work more, but Burton's films can be a little fun to watch. I admit to sometime disliking what Burton did by making Joker being the killer of the Waynes & felt it just feel like Batman with making him the supporting character than the Joker. But still, they are quite fun to watch from time to time. I hate BR & refuse to watch it anymore though.

I think that kinda harsh, man. Just let it go.

 

[CaptainClown]

I enjoyed Batman'89 far more than Last Crusade. Then again, the former is my favorite Batman movie and the latter is my least favorite Indiana Jones movie. So that wouldn't be saying too much. Atm I am looking forward to Dark Knight more than Crystal Skulls but naturally, as we haven't gotten a single second of footage from Indy 4.

Don't you see? The pen is mightier then the sword!

I think Last Crusade is my favorite INdiana Jones, then 1 then 2... Temple of doom failed because of the lack of nazis

 

[Luchastyle]

christian bale played a nazi

 

[CaptainClown]

really what movie?

 

[CaptainClown]

before I start let me give a shout out to my man stormin WURD up YO!

I think Narnia 2 is going to be number 1. Why you ask? Simple answer, God..With the up coming election the american people are wanting to get back to their religious roots. When I say religious roots I say the kind that matter, protestants.. We need to bring back religion and Narnia is that answer.

 

[Noir]

Dark Knight is gonna get its ass kicked by Indy and Iron Man.

 

[Luchastyle]

i don't know. my girlfriend was lookin at pictures of bale earlier and she made note that he went from playing a nazi to playing a hero. she loves bale. i'm not sure what movie it was though. a little imdb search can take care of that though.

 

[Luchastyle]

before I start let me give a shout out to my man stormin WURD up YO!

I think Narnia 2 is going to be number 1. Why you ask? Simple answer, God..With the up coming election the american people are wanting to get back to their religious roots. When I say religious roots I say the kind that matter, protestants.. We need to bring back religion and Narnia is that answer.

that's a weird thing to say

 

[Luchastyle]

oh. i just read the lounge. i get it. i was pretty confused for a minute