Ben Affleck To Team With DC’s Geoff Johns On Standalone ‘Batman’ Film - Part 1

[metaphysician]

Worse, Snyder's Batman in BvS doesn't just abandon his no-kill rule, but he also either lost his competence and judgement, or was never supposed to have it in the first place. A Batman who decides to go homicidal should still be Batman. . . which is to say, frighteningly competent and disciplined.

Which is to say, "Martha" should have been meaningless, because he already knew about Clark Kent's family, and already judged it irrelevant in the face of the need that Superman die.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Nolan's Batman abandons his crusade against crime, because there's no need for that. And thus loses meaning of his life. He doesn't lose his judgement, I.Q., skills or the essence.

Snyder's Batman abandons his no-kill rule, becomes an executioner.

I think, both cases feature broken characters. But don't act surprised that Snyder's Batman is considered an unlikable idiot and an ******* by many. And that people don't like him and don't sympathize with him.

Agreed. I hate Snyder Batman. He the worst.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

So we've established that Batman is an inherently flawed character, thus making him human and susceptible to human error.

Have the people arguing against the "Snyder version" never had their judgment clouded by anger, or sadness, or pride, or love before? In their entire lives? If the answer is "Yes" then why can't the same happen to Bruce Wayne? A man with a history of... inner turmoil and instability.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Worse, Snyder's Batman in BvS doesn't just abandon his no-kill rule, but he also either lost his competence and judgement, or was never supposed to have it in the first place. A Batman who decides to go homicidal should still be Batman. . . which is to say, frighteningly competent and disciplined.

Which is to say, "Martha" should have been meaningless, because he already knew about Clark Kent's family, and already judged it irrelevant in the face of the need that Superman die.

Yes. I was about to write something along these lines. That's what separates Burton's Batman, who's a murderer too, from Snyder's.

 

[DeadStroke]

Worse, Snyder's Batman in BvS doesn't just abandon his no-kill rule, but he also either lost his competence and judgement, or was never supposed to have it in the first place. A Batman who decides to go homicidal should still be Batman. . . which is to say, frighteningly competent and disciplined.

Which is to say, "Martha" should have been meaningless, because he already knew about Clark Kent's family, and already judged it irrelevant in the face of the need that Superman die.

So Batman is incapable of having a moment of clarity?


I always thought the animated series executed this better. Great back and forth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYMBwqtMht0

The Martha line just got him more p'od and reckless. It was the fact Lois Lane risked her life to beg Batman to not kill him. It was the fact that Lois told Batman that its Lex Luthor that has set this whole thing up. Once realizing Superman is not the enemy it became self reflection time for Batman to realize just how much he lost it.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

IDK, sounds like people want Batgod instead of Batman to me.

 

[The Joker]

So Batman is incapable of having an epiphany?

These kind of silly rhetorical questions are pointless and show people are not paying attention to the criticisms of the character. Can Batman have an epiphany? Can Batman be flawed? Can Batman be susceptible to human error etc?

Yes of course he can. And he has. Many times. But it depends on what kind of flaws and errors you're talking about. They come in many different kinds and very different degrees of severity.

E.g. Batman under estimating the Joker as just another criminal is human error. Batman thinking he has no limits and then learning the harsh way that he does is human error. These are human flaws, human errors, and they work for Batman.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

But being enraged after witnessing thousands of people die, a guy who dresses up like a bat every night to stop people from dying, and not being able to see the forest from the trees. That's not a good flaw for Batman?

 

[FunkMiller]

IDK, sounds like people want Batgod instead of Batman to me.

I want a human hero who has the self possession, capability, intelligence, skill-set, money, morality and humanity to accomplish everything he needs to without stooping to murder.

Or, in other words...

BATMAN.

 

[DeadStroke]

So we've established that Batman is an inherently flawed character, thus making him human and susceptible to human error.

Have the people arguing against the "Snyder version" never had their judgment clouded by anger, or sadness, or pride, or love before? In their entire lives? If the answer is "Yes" then why can't the same happen to Bruce Wayne? A man with a history of... inner turmoil and instability.

People don't want their comic book heroes to be as "human" as they'd like.

There have been a lot of people throughout history who have done horrible things in the name of goodness. Some of them we consider heroes. Batman was going down the road and it took an alien to change that.

Again we can argue execution, but it was clear what they were going for.

 

[FunkMiller]

That's an extraordinarily condescending response.

It's fine. He's defending his corner. But I'm going to stick to M1ll3r's new rule regardless t:

 

[The Joker]

But being enraged after witnessing thousands of people die, a guy who dresses up like a bat every night to stop people from dying, and not being able to see the forest from the trees. That's not a good flaw for Batman?

Being enraged sure. Who wouldn't be angry seeing innocent people die. Turning into an irrational reckless killer, definitely not. No matter how much Batman loses his way, he never becomes that deluded or insanely reckless and needlessly brutal.

 

[DeadStroke]

I want a human hero who has the self possession, capability, intelligence, skill-set, money, morality and humanity to accomplish everything he needs to without stooping to murder.

Or, in other words...

BATMAN.

I look at this Batman like a favorite athlete who hit a really low point in his career and bounced back tremendously. Sure its disappointing to see the fall from grace, but it makes the comeback story that more powerful.

Same can/likely will happen for Batman.

 

[misslane38]

Pretty much. In the comics when Bane broke him, physically and spiritually, he abandoned the mantle of Batman to someone else, and left the country for months to try and find his purpose again. In TAS when he thought he was getting nowhere with his crime fighting as Batman he quit. In TDKR, he became a shut off recluse (The Batman Beyond cartoon also showed this after he was forced to stop being Batman due to old age).

Since you said "pretty much," does that mean there have been exceptions? Also, other than the Bane example, the rest don't really sound like examples of Batman being broken. Are there examples of a Batman who had been subject to similar scale pressures as BvS Batman? These include, in the span of a little over two years, the murder of Jason Todd, years of solitary and fruitless crime fighting, and a super powered alien invasion that caused 9/11 style destruction including of his own building and employees. What do you make of this essay, for instance?

When Batman has killed, it was in high stakes dangerous moments where innocent lives were in immediate danger e.g. an atomic bomb was about to go off, a child about to be shot etc.

That's not how I remember his murder of Ra's Al Ghul in Batman Begins or how he endangered lives by setting the monastery on fire at the start of the film. It's also not how I remember all the kills in the Burton films.

Stark contrast to his looney murderous actions in BvS.

Yeah, at least in BvS the killing and cruelty is challenged and portrayed as wrong. Batman can kill Ra's Al Ghul without any PTSD as a foundation, yet it's hand-waved away as insignificant.

One of the most famous and fan favorite Batman tales, The Dark Knight Returns, had him quit for 10 years. And he did it when the city still needed him as Batman. So abandoning the mantle of Batman is very much something Batman can and has done. Getting to retire from the mantle is something he very much wants to do when he's not needed as Batman any more;

BvS Batman doesn't believe he's not needed, though. As he says to Alfred before he goes off to fight Superman, he feels that stopping this threat is basically the last thing he can do to make a difference. It will be his legacy.

Nolan's Batman abandons his crusade against crime, because there's no need for that. And thus loses meaning of his life. He doesn't lose his judgement, I.Q., skills or the essence.

Then it's not a comparable situation, since Gotham clearly does need someone to fight crime still and with that crime and the threat Superman poses, Batman sees opportunity to still make a difference. Nolan's Batman, conversely, does kill without any narrative or character based explanation; so it's treated as okay and normal. He also crosses lines like using invasive spy technology that disturb Lucius Fox.

I think, both cases feature broken characters. But don't act surprised that Snyder's Batman is considered an unlikable idiot and an ******* by many. And that people don't like him and don't sympathize with him.

I see terms like irrational, illogical, low IQ, and idiot thrown around sometimes with regard to BvS Batman as if they are synonymous with psychological distress and immoral behavior. Since intellect has little to nothing to do with those aspects of a person, where are the complaints about his intelligence coming from?

 

[misslane38]

I want a human hero who has the self possession, capability, intelligence, skill-set, money, morality and humanity to accomplish everything he needs to without stooping to murder.

Or, in other words...

BATMAN.

Do you consider Burton and Nolan versions of Batman (both stooped to murder) as illegitimate, then?

 

[DeadStroke]

Since you said "pretty much," does that mean there have been exceptions? Also, other than the Bane example, the rest don't really sound like examples of Batman being broken. Are there examples of a Batman who had been subject to similar scale pressures as BvS Batman? These include, in the span of a little over two years, the murder of Jason Todd, years of solitary and fruitless crime fighting, and a super powered alien invasion that caused 9/11 style destruction including of his own building and employees. What do you make of this essay, for instance?



That's not how I remember his murder of Ra's Al Ghul in Batman Begins or how he endangered lives by setting the monastery on fire at the start of the film. It's also not how I remember all the kills in the Burton films.



Yeah, at least in BvS the killing and cruelty is challenged and portrayed as wrong. Batman can kill Ra's Al Ghul without any PTSD as a foundation, yet it's hand-waved away as insignificant.



BvS Batman doesn't believe he's not needed, though. As he says to Alfred before he goes off to fight Superman, he feels that stopping this threat is basically the last thing he can do to make a difference. It will be his legacy.



Then it's not a comparable situation, since Gotham clearly does need someone to fight crime still and with that crime and the threat Superman poses, Batman sees opportunity to still make a difference. Nolan's Batman, conversely, does kill without any narrative or character based explanation; so it's treated as okay and normal. He also crosses lines like using invasive spy technology that disturb Lucius Fox.



I see terms like irrational, illogical, low IQ, and idiot thrown around sometimes with regard to BvS Batman as if they are synonymous with psychological distress and immoral behavior. Since intellect has little to nothing to do with those aspects of a person, where are the complaints about his intelligence coming from?

Can make the case Batman not saving Ra's killed even more people with what happened in Rises.
Maybe Talia doesn't hold that grudge if her father was just locked in a cell.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

So Batman is human whose trauma is rooted in the death of his parents. 34 years later and he still hasn't gotten over it completely. He dresses up like an animal and prowls rooftops at night looking for thugs to assault and batter. That's something he can control. Then he witnesses thousands of people die first hand, something that he's dedicated 20 years of his life to averting and he's suddenly not in control anymore. Forget plausible, is it possible that a human being, even one as hypercompetent as Batman who experienced a life altering trauma at 9 years old couldn't have progressed and escalated in mental instability, even if temporarily, given the circumstances?

 

[misslane38]

Worse, Snyder's Batman in BvS doesn't just abandon his no-kill rule, but he also either lost his competence and judgement, or was never supposed to have it in the first place. A Batman who decides to go homicidal should still be Batman. . . which is to say, frighteningly competent and disciplined.

Which is to say, "Martha" should have been meaningless, because he already knew about Clark Kent's family, and already judged it irrelevant in the face of the need that Superman die.

Wait, how do you figure Bruce knew about Clark and his human family?

 

[DeadStroke]

So Batman is human whose trauma is rooted in the death of his parents. 34 years later and he still hasn't gotten over it completely. He dresses up like an animal and prowls rooftops at night looking for thugs to assault and batter. That's something he can control. Then he witnesses thousands of people die first hand, something that he's dedicated 20 years of his life to averting and he's suddenly not in control anymore. Forget plausible, is it possible that a human being, even one as hypercompetent as Batman who experienced a life altering trauma at 9 years old couldn't have progressed and escalated in mental instability, even if temporarily, given the circumstances?

People can say what they will, but I thought the 1st 15 mins or so were excellent in setting that up.

Opening scene he sees his parents killed. He has feeling of helplessness. He "rises" from it and does good things.
Next scene he's watching a city destroyed and a hugging a little girl who just watched her parents get eviscerated. He's got that feeling of helplessness he hasn't felt since he was a kid.
At this moment Bruce falls into the darkside of his trauma. A beautiful lie.

Great setup imo.

 

[FunkMiller]

Do you consider Burton and Nolan versions of Batman (both stooped to murder) as illegitimate, then?

Illegitimate is the wrong word. I have no more right than anyone else to say what is legitimate or not, but...

While Burton's Batman is more or less as bad as Snyder's, at least Nolan's attempts to address Batman's no kill rule, even if it doesn't succeed in sticking to it 100%. He establishes Bruce's hatred of guns, and on several occasions makes sure to have the character voice an adherence to the no-kill rule, showing that as a director he understands and appreciates it.

Having said that, narrative movie convention rather undoes things a bit. Ra's and Talia die because convention in these kinds of movie kind of demand it. You can see Nolan is uncomfortable with it though - hence the 'I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you either'.

Nolan is leaps and bounds ahead of both Burton and Snyder though. They both basically couldn't give a **** about a cornerstone of Batman's characterisation, and are both immensely ham-fisted in their approach.

Burton was never much of a fan of the comic anyway. What Snyder's excuse is, I just don't know - other than 'killing makes Batman waaaay cooler and more edgy, dude!'

 

[The Joker]

Since you said "pretty much," does that mean there have been exceptions?

No exceptions. I say pretty much because there is little subtle differences like in one story he passes the mantle to someone else while he goes off to find his purpose again, while in another one he just abandons it altogether. But the central theme is he withdraws into himself and essentially cuts himself off.

Also, other than the Bane example, the rest don't really sound like examples of Batman being broken.

Then you obviously haven't read the stories or seen the episodes. He was very much broken. That's why he abandoned his Batman mantle, or was broken because he had to abandon it had nothing left to live for.

Are there examples of a Batman who had been subject to similar scale pressures as BvS Batman? These include, in the span of a little over two years, the murder of Jason Todd, years of solitary and fruitless crime fighting, and a super powered alien invasion that caused 9/11 style destruction including of his own building and employees.

Of course. The comic books. In the comics he continues to fight the same criminals/ villains constantly with no signs of Gotham improving in any way, and Arkham being a constant revolving door for the same villains. He has lost Jason Todd, and his son Damien. He's lost women he cared about both romantically and as friends. He's seen many good men turn bad, including ones he considered allies and friends e.g. Harvey Dent. He's witnessed plenty of mass scale slaughter and destruction, especially on his time with the JL.

But none of this turned him into an irrational killer. Not even close.

What do you make of this essay, for instance?

A very badly researched article. For instance Batman didn't kill anyone in DKR; http://spinoff.comicbookresources.c...ually-kill-anyone-in-the-dark-knight-returns/

He did not kill the KGBeast either, as he had an attack of conscience leaving him there, and went back and released him.

Jason's death haunting him, and causing him to be more brutal in the physical punishments of criminals doesn't equate to him turning killer.

The person who wrote that is clutching at straws and fabricating false info.

That's not how I remember his murder of Ra's Al Ghul in Batman Begins or how he endangered lives by setting the monastery on fire at the start of the film. It's also not how I remember all the kills in the Burton films.

Ra's Al Ghul smashed the brakes on the train himself. He's the one who doomed the train to crash. You can question the morality of Batman leaving him to die, but he was not the instrument of Ra's' death.

The Burton films are as guilty as Snyder's for the killing and got rightly hammered for it, too, back in the day;

Yeah, at least in BvS the killing and cruelty is challenged and portrayed as wrong. Batman can kill Ra's Al Ghul without any PTSD as a foundation, yet it's hand-waved away as insignificant.

It's waved away as insignificant because he didn't kill him. Portraying Batman's killing and cruelty as wrong doesn't magically make it ok that they portrayed him that way.

The fact that Alfred stood by him while he was doing this was also another awful characterization. A proper version of Alfred would have left him and never aided him in a reckless crusade like that.

BvS Batman doesn't believe he's not needed, though. As he says to Alfred before he goes off to fight Superman, he feels that stopping this threat is basically the last thing he can do to make a difference. It will be his legacy.

I wasn't talking about BvS' Batman. I was addressing an entirely different post by someone else that was talking about Batman quitting in general.

 

[FunkMiller]

...also, Batman doesn't kill for one very simple reason:

The only thing he is terrified of is himself.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

And yet, the stakes were raised weren't they?

 

[misslane38]

...also, Batman doesn't kill for one very simple reason:

The only thing he is terrified of is himself.

Sure, but can you understand how Snyder provides a context to challenge that rationale? The film establishes a scenario in which the one thing that kept Bruce from feeling terrified -- the one thing that gave him a sense of control and power -- had become a beautiful lie. Batman had become a flawed and inconsequential fantasy. Batman, in other words, had already become terrified of himself. Bruce believed that he could force the world to make sense as Batman, and he lived by the rule for decades only to see a cumulative career that added up to nothing except guilt and loss. Then, when Black Zero happened, the trauma that ignited Bruce's descent into the Batman in the first place was reignited. I can think of no other Batman or Batman story in which this unique context was in place as a foundation for characterization. So, for that reason, I cannot understand measuring this Batman against other versions. Because you cannot say that other versions of Batman would not have behaved similarly in similar circumstances.

 

[dhandler01]

Wait, how do you figure Bruce knew about Clark and his human family?

I was wondering the same thing. In no version of the movie does Batman let on he knows Clark Kent is Superman...