The Dark Knight Biggest Disappointment

[Abadleon]

Continues from my last post:

"It's just a comic book movie!" But I do want to address a few of the points you make:

-First scene. Joker leaves the bank with a school bus, like if it was a mastermind plan. Well, why the other bus drivers let him an space to leave, instead of stopping, thinking about why the **** is one of their buses leaving a bank? And no, they aren't Joker's goons, you can clearly hear the voices of the kids. The police arrives just when Joker is leaving, why don't they go after him? People in the streets or in the bank would tell them he had just left the bank with a school bus, and I doubt that it is very hard for the police to find a line of buses with a guy driving one of them that looks like a clown and has millions of dollars. With all the cars and helicopters that the police has they should easily find the bus, that I doubt is the fastest thing to drive in a big city with a lot of traffic like Gotham. Nothing of that is explained and the scene is just ridiculous because of that IMO. Its like if the cops thought: "One of the most dangerous criminals has just left the bank with a school bus hidden among other school buses? Genius! There is no way we can get him now!

Why is this so unbelievable? The Joker comes out in a school bus, gets right into line with the other school buses (a huge line -- it stretches for blocks) and drives off. The police are far enough down the street that they would very easily miss one truck joining in the yellow-orange procession, and there are, at this point, no helicopters. The other bus drivers would give him the space because, A) they may or may not be carrying children, and B) this isn't The Fast & The Furious, and even with this dude coming out of the bank it wouldn't make sense to deliberately create a collision.

Second, I don't know if you've ever lived in a city, but people aren't exactly the open, communicative folk you'd see in a Frank Capra movie. People on the street won't just run up to the cops and point fingers and say, "He's over there! He's one of those buses!" And even getting inside the bank, the first thing that happens won't be the police asking, "What did he drive and in what direction?" Upon entering the building and carefully moving through a fair cloud of smoke (courtesy of the grenade left in the manager's mouth, who'll be found wounded and in need of an ambulance), they'll have to expend considerable effort disarming the people sitting on the floor. This will probably require calling in the bomb squad, unless the cops want to just start chucking explosives into the vacant end of the lobby. Questioning won't be in any depth until the detectives arrive. And so on.

Even if it takes, say, five minutes for someone to let out that the Joker drove off in a bus, at that point they could easily have dispersed the line and be scattering around the city. Who knows how far Joker had to drive before hitting his waypoint to switch vehicles with the loot? Even if it takes one minute, the police will have to call in for backup to make any realistic effort to hold up the buses, and the traffic (which you've noted) in Gotham would make this just as difficult for the cops as Joker.

So anyway, I thought the robbery bit was well done.

And when Batman appears in the party, where does he come from? Because he appears in front of Joker from nowhere. I know he is a ninja, but the penthouse is really big and has a lot of light, Joker and Rachel are almost in the center of the room. and none of Joker's goons sees him coming? WTF?

You already got it: he's a ninja. This is how he disappears within a single breath on rooftops, or appears suddenly in the vault of a bank without being noticed. The goons were watching the boss, and so was everyone else.

...and could be killing everybody in the party...
-Why The Joker doesn't kill the cops when he steals their uniforms to kill the mayor?

Not his style. He doesn't kill indiscriminately, not just for the sake of killing. Especially with the cops: he wanted them alive so Bruce/Batman/whomever would find that their uniforms had been stolen. Joker likes to give up the moves he's just made, because that's how he plays his opponents.

Why the **** the police left only one cop with the most dangerous criminal of the city in a room? Why didn't they take him to the cage where he was before with all the cops watching every move he made? There is not to be a genius to think about it.

Don't know. Either the one issuing the orders (if any -- we never see Gordon say any such thing and this guy seemed to be Gordon's immediate subordinate) felt that said cop would be able to stand guard, unyielding, in what was mistakenly believed to be a "secure environment," or the cop positioned himself there because he was ultimately looking for a fight. At any rate, had there been no cop with him there would have been no need to move him: they could easily keep an eye on him, what with the glass windows on two sides of the room. But everyone else became distracted by the fat guy in the holding cell.

I think it's fair to call this one a simple plot device. Or maybe it's procedure to keep the Joker there until his directions can be confirmed. That way, if he's lying he can be immediately questioned again with audio recording.

And how the **** nobody on the freighters saw the gasoline/explosives before leaving the city?

They're just little ferries. They probably make dozens of trips a day, are staffed with a skeleton crew, and whomever is responsible for checking/loading the lower compartment was probably one of Joker's goons, or at least paid off or murdered. A ferry of that size wouldn't need round-the-clock monitoring of its machinery.

suddenly, in the same scene, the cops go after Batman even before Gordon says a word about it. Why the **** do they go after him if nobody has still said that Batman was who killed the people that Harvey killed?

That's just the way it was edited. Gordon talked to them.

I think some of you didn't understand what I was talking about. I don't say the movie has to be completely realistic, I know it is a movie about a guy who dresses like a bat and it is fiction, even if Nolan wanted to make it the most realistic possible. I am talking about the screenplay, which doesn't matter how unrealistic the movie is, it has to make sense to make the movie believable and coherent, even if it is a movie like Lord of the Rings with elves, dragons or whatever, if the characters are constantly acting in a way that doesn't make sense or the plot is not well constructed, the viewer wont "believe" the movie, which should be one of the ultimate goals of a good writer or director, to make the viewer completely "enters" in the story of the movie and someway "believes" that what he/she is watching makes sense even if it is about a fish who has lost his son (Finding Nemo). I don't know what is so hard to understand about that, although seeing how some of you doubted if the post about the poster with a burning building with the bat on it was a joke or not, and seeing how others say that The Joker isn't mad/crazy/insane when there is not to be an expert psychiatrist to see that guy is not the greatest example of sanity... I don't know what to think (Well, I do know, but I'll not say it to don't piss off some of you even more after reading this post).

"It's just a comic book movie!" But I do want to address a few of the points you make:

-First scene. Joker leaves the bank with a school bus, like if it was a mastermind plan. Well, why the other bus drivers let him an space to leave, instead of stopping, thinking about why the **** is one of their buses leaving a bank? And no, they aren't Joker's goons, you can clearly hear the voices of the kids. The police arrives just when Joker is leaving, why don't they go after him? People in the streets or in the bank would tell them he had just left the bank with a school bus, and I doubt that it is very hard for the police to find a line of buses with a guy driving one of them that looks like a clown and has millions of dollars. With all the cars and helicopters that the police has they should easily find the bus, that I doubt is the fastest thing to drive in a big city with a lot of traffic like Gotham. Nothing of that is explained and the scene is just ridiculous because of that IMO. Its like if the cops thought: "One of the most dangerous criminals has just left the bank with a school bus hidden among other school buses? Genius! There is no way we can get him now!

Why is this so unbelievable? The Joker comes out in a school bus, gets right into line with the other school buses (a huge line -- it stretches for blocks) and drives off. The police are far enough down the street that they would very easily miss one truck joining in the yellow-orange procession, and there are, at this point, no helicopters. The other bus drivers would give him the space because, A) they may or may not be carrying children, and B) this isn't The Fast & The Furious, and even with this dude coming out of the bank it wouldn't make sense to deliberately create a collision.

Second, I don't know if you've ever lived in a city, but people aren't exactly the open, communicative folk you'd see in a Frank Capra movie. People on the street won't just run up to the cops and point fingers and say, "He's over there! He's one of those buses!" And even getting inside the bank, the first thing that happens won't be the police asking, "What did he drive and in what direction?" Upon entering the building and carefully moving through a fair cloud of smoke (courtesy of the grenade left in the manager's mouth, who'll be found wounded and in need of an ambulance), they'll have to expend considerable effort disarming the people sitting on the floor. This will probably require calling in the bomb squad, unless the cops want to just start chucking explosives into the vacant end of the lobby. Questioning won't be in any depth until the detectives arrive. And so on.

Even if it takes, say, five minutes for someone to let out that the Joker drove off in a bus, at that point they could easily have dispersed the line and be scattering around the city. Who knows how far Joker had to drive before hitting his waypoint to switch vehicles with the loot? Even if it takes one minute, the police will have to call in for backup to make any realistic effort to hold up the buses, and the traffic (which you've noted) in Gotham would make this just as difficult for the cops as Joker.

So anyway, I thought the robbery bit was well done.

First, I have lived in Madrid, biggest city in Spain with terrible traffic, around 10 years, so I know what is to live in a big city (Now I live in Seville, that is a little smaller, but is one of the most important cities in the country, although is not comparable with L.A. or NY). For you, Gotham police must be incredibly incompetent, because if an school bus crashes against a bank in a normal city, a lot of people would see it and would call the police. When the bus left the bank and the police arrived, dozens of people would go to warn the police about what happened, and they have radios, walkies, cell phones, they would ask for more units to search the buses because the police doesn't know if there are kidnapped kids in them, so the main objective for the police should be to find those buses, that like I said, shouldn't be very hard for them with all the things the police has today. I guess you know that police cars, ambulances, firemen cars, have sirens to warn other cars and make the traffic is not an obstacle for them, something that an school bus hasn't. And the police can use traffic cameras, have helicopters, etc, which they would use to find as fast as possible all the buses and make sure that the kids are safe. And if you watch the movie again, you'll see there are no spaces between the buses except for Joker's bus. That should have been explained some way, because a normal driver would stop and would think why the **** there is an school bus leaving from a bank and would call the police to make sure the kids on his bus will be safe, instead of continuing like if nothing happened. Nolan could have made that scene a little better.

And when Batman appears in the party, where does he come from? Because he appears in front of Joker from nowhere. I know he is a ninja, but the penthouse is really big and has a lot of light, Joker and Rachel are almost in the center of the room. and none of Joker's goons sees him coming? WTF?

You already got it: he's a ninja. This is how he disappears within a single breath on rooftops, or appears suddenly in the vault of a bank without being noticed. The goons were watching the boss, and so was everyone else.

He is a ninja, not a wizard, he has to come from somewhere. Like I said, in previous Batman films with similar scenes, he appeared from somewhere, like a glass in the roof. The party is in a very big place with a lot of light and a lot of people, and The Joker is in front of the eyes of a lot of people because he is almost in the center of the place, with all his goons around him. And Batman is a really big guy dressed like a bat, and nobody sees him coming? I repeat that Nolan should have shown how Batman enters in the party like in previous movies, not just make him magically appear there, because any intelligent viewer will think: "How the **** has Batman suddenly appeared there?" I would have accepted the ninja thing in the last scene with Two-Face, where it is dark and there is almost nobody and no walls, so he could have used a gadget to reach Two Face and save Gordon's family without killing Harvey. When he does the ninja thing in the bank, only Gordon and the corrupt cop are in the vault, and the rest of the cops could be busy with another things, and Batman could use his ninja abilities to get in the bank with nobody seeing him. The same in the rooftop where is the bat-signal, he could just jump from it while Gordon and Dent are distracted.

...and could be killing everybody in the party...
-Why The Joker doesn't kill the cops when he steals their uniforms to kill the mayor?

Not his style. He doesn't kill indiscriminately, not just for the sake of killing. Especially with the cops: he wanted them alive so Bruce/Batman/whomever would find that their uniforms had been stolen. Joker likes to give up the moves he's just made, because that's how he plays his opponents.

That is just your opinion, because in the movie I don't remember The Joker saying he doesn't like to kill indiscriminately. In fact, he does it several times in the movie, you should watch it again. He even enjoys telling the cop in the interrogation room how many cops he has killed. And his objective was killing the mayor dressed like a cop, letting the cops alive was stupid because could ruin his plan (yes, he has plans, even if he says he hasn't, and yes, he is mad, even if he says he is not), and later he kills a cop that just ask to his goon to move the truck when he goes after Dent, when it was unnecessary.

Why the **** the police left only one cop with the most dangerous criminal of the city in a room? Why didn't they take him to the cage where he was before with all the cops watching every move he made? There is not to be a genius to think about it.

Don't know. Either the one issuing the orders (if any -- we never see Gordon say any such thing and this guy seemed to be Gordon's immediate subordinate) felt that said cop would be able to stand guard, unyielding, in what was mistakenly believed to be a "secure environment," or the cop positioned himself there because he was ultimately looking for a fight. At any rate, had there been no cop with him there would have been no need to move him: they could easily keep an eye on him, what with the glass windows on two sides of the room. But everyone else became distracted by the fat guy in the holding cell.

I think it's fair to call this one a simple plot device. Or maybe it's procedure to keep the Joker there until his directions can be confirmed. That way, if he's lying he can be immediately questioned again with audio recording.

Joker should be this way:

In a cage.

And how the **** nobody on the freighters saw the gasoline/explosives before leaving the city?

They're just little ferries. They probably make dozens of trips a day, are staffed with a skeleton crew, and whomever is responsible for checking/loading the lower compartment was probably one of Joker's goons, or at least paid off or murdered. A ferry of that size wouldn't need round-the-clock monitoring of its machinery.

Come on, you live in USA, you know how is security there when there is a terrorist alert. And a lot of citizens are using the freighters because they think is a safer way to leave the city, you can see even people of the army there, wouldn't they register every corner of the freighters? Much more when Joker said he was going to put explosives everywhere, and that is the reason everybody wants to leave in the freighters. Just because he doesn't mention the freighters they trust he will not put explosives there? Ridiculous.

suddenly, in the same scene, the cops go after Batman even before Gordon says a word about it. Why the **** do they go after him if nobody has still said that Batman was who killed the people that Harvey killed?

That's just the way it was edited. Gordon talked to them.

Bad edited. Doesn't make sense.

You have not mentioned everything I wrote, so I'll guess you agree with the rest of things I said.
And I don't know why some of you seem to think I hate Batman and this movie, when I've been posting on this thread a lot. If I hated this movie or Batman I wouldn't waste my time posting here. I just think there are some things that are wrong in the movie and that annoys me a little.

 

[Abadleon]

Continues from my last post:

For you, Gotham police must be incredibly incompetent, because if an school bus crashes against a bank in a normal city, a lot of people would see it and would call the police. When the bus left the bank and the police arrived, dozens of people would go to warn the police about what happened, and they have radios, walkies, cell phones, they would ask for more units to search the buses because the police doesn't know if there are kidnapped kids in them, so the main objective for the police should be to find those buses, that like I said, shouldn't be very hard for them with all the things the police has today. I guess you know that police cars, ambulances, firemen cars, have sirens to warn other cars and make the traffic is not an obstacle for them, something that an school bus hasn't. And the police can use traffic cameras, have helicopters, etc, which they would use to find as fast as possible all the buses and make sure that the kids are safe. And if you watch the movie again, you'll see there are no spaces between the buses except for Joker's bus. That should have been explained some way, because a normal driver would stop and would think why the **** there is an school bus leaving from a bank and would call the police to make sure the kids on his bus will be safe, instead of continuing like if nothing happened. Nolan could have made that scene a little better.

Did you even read my comment? All of these points were addressed. I told you: the people in the city aren't good samaritans. They mind their own damn business except to watch the events unfolding like it's some kind of prime-time entertainment.

Regarding "sirens," it doesn't do city motorists any good to know you're coming when the streets are gridlocked anyway. Remember when Gordon is going after Rachel following the interrogation? He instructed the driver to drive on the sidewalk to make headway. Regular P.D. responding to a bank robbery aren't going to make this decision.

BTW, there are no spaces between the buses except for where the Joker pulls out for two possible reasons: 1) he's pulling out into a line of buses, which I already covered in my comments, and 2) there's an intersection right there. And, really, just as you said, "a normal driver would stop and would think why the **** there is a school bus leaving from a bank."

And when Batman appears in the party, where does he come from? Because he appears in front of Joker from nowhere. I know he is a ninja, but the penthouse is really big and has a lot of light, Joker and Rachel are almost in the center of the room. and none of Joker's goons sees him coming? WTF?

You already got it: he's a ninja. This is how he disappears within a single breath on rooftops, or appears suddenly in the vault of a bank without being noticed. The goons were watching the boss, and so was everyone else.

He is a ninja, not a wizard, he has to come from somewhere.

He did come from somewhere: behind the guests. He does it quick -- even his "Then you're gonna love me" line is forced out as fast as he can.

When he does the ninja thing in the bank, only Gordon and the corrupt cop are in the vault, and the rest of the cops could be busy with another things, and Batman could use his ninja abilities to get in the bank with nobody seeing him.

Why is it that in the bank his ninja tactics are okay because everyone else is someone "too busy" to see "the guy in the big black batsuit", but at the party, when everyone is focused on a single spot in the room, it's COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS to think that he could just as easily have snuck up behind the guests?

That is just your opinion, because in the movie I don't remember The Joker saying he doesn't like to kill indiscriminately.

He doesn't say it, but he also never does it.

In fact, he does it several times in the movie, you should watch it again. He even enjoys telling the cop in the interrogation room how many cops he has killed. And his objective was killing the mayor dressed like a cop, letting the cops alive was stupid because could ruin his plan (yes, he has plans, even if he says he hasn't, and yes, he is mad, even if he says he is not), and later he kills a cop that just ask to his goon to move the truck when he goes after Dent, when it was unnecessary.

He was taunting the cop in the interrogation room. Of course he was going to flaunt the number of cops he's killed. When does he kill indiscriminately? The cop before the big chase? Maybe -- or maybe he wanted to move into place without drawing any additional attention from the police.

And he apparently felt that leaving the cops alive would NOT ruin his plan, and it obviously didn't. He knew that someone would find the cops, go to the window, look down on the crowd. He knew approximately WHEN it would happen, which is why the timer goes off and raises the shade just as Bruce is at the window. As I said, he leaves his cards on the table because he's playing the other people -- he's making them a part of his plans.

Come on, you live in USA, you know how is security there when there is a terrorist alert.

You're right, I live in the USA and I've seen how security looks when there's a "terrorist alert." And the film's ferry scene is pretty consistent with my experiences.

Bad edited. Doesn't make sense.

Made perfect sense to me, as we do see the cops in the same area Gordon and Batman were just talking a couple edits prior. Only one that has a huge problem with it is you.

You have not mentioned everything I wrote, so I'll guess you agree with the rest of things I said.

For one you accepted the points Elke made, most of the others I really don't care to argue, and one or two of the points was redundant.

For you, Gotham police must be incredibly incompetent, because if an school bus crashes against a bank in a normal city, a lot of people would see it and would call the police. When the bus left the bank and the police arrived, dozens of people would go to warn the police about what happened, and they have radios, walkies, cell phones, they would ask for more units to search the buses because the police doesn't know if there are kidnapped kids in them, so the main objective for the police should be to find those buses, that like I said, shouldn't be very hard for them with all the things the police has today. I guess you know that police cars, ambulances, firemen cars, have sirens to warn othercars and make the traffic is not an obstacle for them, something that an school bus hasn't. And the police can use traffic cameras, have helicopters, etc, which they would use to find as fast as possible all the buses and make sure that the kids are safe. And if you watch the movie again, you'll see there are no spaces between the buses except for Joker's bus. That should have been explained some way, because a normal driver would stop and would think why the **** there is an school bus leaving from a bank and would call the police to make sure the kids on his bus will be safe, instead of continuing like if nothing happened. Nolan could have made that scene a little better.

Did you even read my comment?

Yes.

All of these points were addressed.

No.

I told you: the people in the city aren't good samaritans. They mind their own damn business except to watch the events unfolding like it's some kind of prime-time entertainment.

I'm not a good samaritan, but if I see a ****ing school bus crashing against a bank, I call the police, its not so hard, some people calls the police when they see crimes. You see an school bus crashing against a bank and you continue like if nothing happened? Do you really think nobody would give a **** about it?

Regarding "sirens," it doesn't do city motorists any good to know you're coming when the streets are gridlocked anyway. Remember when Gordon is going after Rachel following the interrogation? He instructed the driver to drive on the sidewalk to make headway. Regular P.D. responding to a bank robbery aren't going to make this decision.

Yeah, sirens are just decoration. It looks cool, the lights and the sound.

BTW, there are no spaces between the buses except for where the Joker pulls out for two possible reasons: 1) he's pulling out into a line of buses, which I already covered in my comments, and 2) there's an intersection right there. And, really, just as you said, "a normal driver would stop and would think why the **** there is a school bus leaving from a bank."

The bus doesn't stop, its just that "coincidentally" there is an space there in the right moment. IT IS BAD MADE, IT IS RIDICULOUS. Watch the movie again.

And when Batman appears in the party, where does he come from? Because he appears in front of Joker from nowhere. I know he is a ninja, but the penthouse is really big and has a lot of light, Joker and Rachel are almost in the center of the room. and none of Joker's goons sees him coming? WTF?

You already got it: he's a ninja. This is how he disappears within a single breath on rooftops, or appears suddenly in the vault of a bank without being noticed. The goons were watching the boss, and so was everyone else.

He is a ninja, not a wizard, he has to come from somewhere.

He did come from somewhere: behind the guests. He does it quick -- even his "Then you're gonna love me" line is forced out as fast as he can.

IT IS BAD MADE, IT IS RIDICULOUS.

When he does the ninja thing in the bank, only Gordon and the corrupt cop are in the vault, and the rest of the cops could be busy with another things, and Batman could use his ninja abilities to get in the bank with nobody seeing him.

Why is it that in the bank his ninja tactics are okay because everyone else is someone "too busy" to see "the guy in the big black batsuit", but at the party, when everyone is focused on a single spot in the room, it's COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS to think that he could just as easily have snuck up behind the guests?

Dude, you are who doesn't read well my posts, you are just forgetting at least half of each one of the points I made. In the vault are only Gordon and another cop, I don't know where the f.... are the rest, but Batman could pass without being seen because there aren't 100 cops in the ****ing vault looking. In the room of the party are The Joker, his goons and dozens of people and nobody sees him coming. Like I've said countless times, Nolan should just have shown how he gets there like in other similar scenes in other Batman movies. In the first, when Joker is with Vicky in a restaurant, if Batman would have suddenly appeared beside Joker's and Vicky's table and then would have punched The Joker, you would think "How the **** has he appeared there?" IT WOULD BE RIDICULOUS.

That is just your opinion, because in the movie I don't remember The Joker saying he doesn't like to kill indiscriminately.

He doesn't say it, but he also never does it.

Yes, he does.

In fact, he does it several times in the movie, you should watch it again. He even enjoys telling the cop in the interrogation room how many cops he has killed. And his objective was killing the mayor dressed like a cop, letting the cops alive was stupid because could ruin his plan (yes, he has plans, even if he says he hasn't, and yes, he is mad, even if he says he is not), and later he kills a cop that just ask to his goon to move the truck when he goes after Dent, when it was unnecessary.

He was taunting the cop in the interrogation room. Of course he was going to flaunt the number of cops he's killed. When does he kill indiscriminately? The cop before the big chase? Maybe -- or maybe he wanted to move into place without drawing any additional attention from the police.

And to don't draw the attention of the police he kills a cop who just asked to move the truck without knowing he was on it...

And he apparently felt that leaving the cops alive would NOT ruin his plan

He is stupid then.

and it obviously didn't.

He didn't kill the mayor.

He knew that someone would find the cops, go to the window, look down on the crowd. He knew approximately WHEN it would happen, which is why the timer goes off and raises the shade just as Bruce is at the window. As I said, he leaves his cards on the table because he's playing the other people -- he's making them a part of his plans.

That Bruce or anyone would be there was not something that was in Joker's plan. The timer is not to show somebody behind the window, it is to distract the police shooters who would think that there was a shooter there because they would see the shade raising and would confuse the telescope with a gun.

Come on, you live in USA, you know how is security there when there is a terrorist alert.

You're right, I live in the USA and I've seen how security looks when there's a "terrorist alert." And the film's ferry scene is pretty consistent with my experiences.

Then, I don't know how you are not dead.

Bad edited. Doesn't make sense.

Made perfect sense to me, as we do see the cops in the same area Gordon and Batman were just talking a couple edits prior. Only one that has a huge problem with it is you.

Somebody said something similar here before me, so I'm not the only one. BAD EDITED.

You have not mentioned everything I wrote, so I'll guess you agree with the rest of things I said.

For one you accepted the points Elke made, most of the others I really don't care to argue, and one or two of the points was redundant.

You should read all again.

I repeat: "Dude, you are who doesn't read well my posts, you are just forgetting at least half of each one of the points I made."

I've got to so, the amount of nitpicking here is freakin' absurd. Seriously, even intepreted the way they are, these aren't film-breaking plot holes at all.

Yes, they are.

 

[spiderral]

you expected that to be in the movie?
when would that be needed for other than a cool poster? lol
i guess joker could do it to get batmans attention but i kinda knew it wouldnt be anything other than an awesome poster

yeah, you're right! But then again that burning bat logo would have been extraordinary in the film!

 

[krisl]

Abadleon makes some very reasonable points and hits on a lot of things I had trouble with. I wish I hadn't been disappointed (perhaps this is due to huge expectations) but some parts of it were very messy indeed and for a franchise that is cemented in realism, it takes a massive suspension of disbelief to not have problems with most of the plot.

 

[Abadleon]

Abadleon makes some very reasonable points and hits on a lot of things I had trouble with. I wish I hadn't been disappointed (perhaps this is due to huge expectations) but some parts of it were very messy indeed and for a franchise that is cemented in realism, it takes a massive suspension of disbelief to not have problems with most of the plot.

Thanks.
Another thing I cant understand is how in the first movie Bruce is supposed to be training during years to fight crime and finally becomes Batman because, like Ra's Al Ghul told him, a normal man couldn't handle it and he had to become something else, a legend (or something like that said Bruce to Alfred in the airplane going back to Gotham). Now, in the second movie, he suddenly thinks Gotham needs a hero with a face, a normal guy, not Batman. Then, why did he lose all those years training and became Batman? To quit after a couple of years? He could have used his money to help to make a better police and a better justice, looking for honest people like Harvey, who wanted to be a cop or a lawyer/attorney, paying their studies/education and helping them economically to win elections like he wanted to do with Harvey. He could just have used all his economical power to help Gotham in a thousand different ways. He could have been years studying laws to become attorney himself instead of learning how to fight to become Batman. This movie destroys the whole concept of the first film that tried to explain why he became Batman.

 

[Nepenthes]

^ That's a very good point. Hmm...

I guess at the beginning of TDK the work of "the symbol" seemed to be complete. It had made criminals scared, lawyers and good police bold, it put away the crime boss and other top corrupt figures and caused a vacuum in the underworld. Criminals and corrupt were in disarray. But every action has a reaction so when Joker rose up to level the field, ideologically and practically, the symbol had to...reassess its value and its methods. In a moment of weakness and near defeat (narrative necessity) he almost gave in to the Jokers spiritual attack, which is to make people give up to their basest instincts, to pervert their faith in humanity and inherent justice. Sure there was a moment of weakness but with the help and the loss of friends (as opposed to "you really are alone") in the end the symbol realizes that he must continue to exist but merely in a different form. A regular man (paying for tuitions etc) could not have taken the fall for Harvey Dent or made "the difficult decisions" or whatever, because you have to be outside the system to do that. To do it inside the system raises to many dodgy questions. Only an outcast can do what's "right" as opposed to what's legal and not have to answer any questions; which is the central core of Batman, he's an unlicensed operator in the fields of justice and morality, in other words, crime, in other words a vigilante. Not saying your wrong but that's how I've reconciled to your interesting question.

 

[Verdammt]

Thanks.
Another thing I cant understand is how in the first movie Bruce is supposed to be training during years to fight crime and finally becomes Batman because, like Ra's Al Ghul told him, a normal man couldn't handle it and he had to become something else, a legend (or something like that said Bruce to Alfred in the airplane going back to Gotham). Now, in the second movie, he suddenly thinks Gotham needs a hero with a face, a normal guy, not Batman. Then, why did he lose all those years training and became Batman? To quit after a couple of years? He could have used his money to help to make a better police and a better justice, looking for honest people like Harvey, who wanted to be a cop or a lawyer/attorney, paying their studies/education and helping them economically to win elections like he wanted to do with Harvey. He could just have used all his economical power to help Gotham in a thousand different ways. He could have been years studying laws to become attorney himself instead of learning how to fight to become Batman. This movie destroys the whole concept of the first film that tried to explain why he became Batman.

I think I understand what it is you're saying, but let me try and explain the way I see it. In the first movie, Bruce became Batman to fight injustice. He spent time training so he wouldn't get himself killed while doing it. In the second film, The Joker was pushing him to cross a line that he would never cross. Like Gordon said at the end of Batman Begins, escalation happened. People were getting killed by The Joker because he was active as Batman. In Harvey Dent, Bruce sees a kindred spirit in that Dent wants to fight injustice and clean up Gotham. In Dent, the public sees someone who isn't afraid of the mob and will take the fight to them and is someone that they can lay the hero tag on. In Batman, the public sees a vigilante who takes the law into his own hands and because he is out there interferring with the bad guys' plans, innocent people are being killed by the Joker. Bruce knows his public image as Batman is not very good and he also realizes that the citizens of Gotham need a hero that they can look up to. If he steps down as Batman, innocent people will stop being killed (supposedly, we all know the Joker lies) and the public will rally behind Dent and his crusade.

 

[nolan's roll'n]

The chances of Joker appearing in Batman 3 are very slim. How do you top this s*it without the Joker?

 

[abcdefz]

I was sorry that this scene was cut:

 

[Harrygucha]

I can't wait for an action/super hero movie to keep an extreme level of intimacy, and sort of be a crime/drama/thriller. TDK did this for the first hour and a half. And then it goes back to familiar territory with the barge scene - the prewitt building scene. CAn someone be bold enough to throw the big action ending set pieces away, and just make it a thriller/drama throughout the whole movie, and end on an intimate note??? Batman the animated series seemed to do this, And TDK did this for the first hour. Sad to see it adhere to Action movie conventions at the end.

The bat sonar - completely unnecessary.

The barge scene - unnecessary.

The bat-pod flipping on the wall - unnecessary.

KEEP IT DARK. KEEP IT INTIMATE. KEEP IT REAL. THIS IS BATMAN. HE's THE MOST REALISTIC OF HEROES.

 

[deathfromabove]

this thread is full of lame

 

[deathfromabove]

I can't wait for an action/super hero movie to keep an extreme level of intimacy, and sort of be a crime/drama/thriller. TDK did this for the first hour and a half. And then it goes back to familiar territory with the barge scene - the prewitt building scene. CAn someone be bold enough to throw the big action ending set pieces away, and just make it a thriller/drama throughout the whole movie, and end on an intimate note??? Batman the animated series seemed to do this, And TDK did this for the first hour. Sad to see it adhere to Action movie conventions at the end.

The bat sonar - completely unnecessary.

The barge scene - unnecessary.

The bat-pod flipping on the wall - unnecessary.

KEEP IT DARK. KEEP IT INTIMATE. KEEP IT REAL. THIS IS BATMAN. HE's THE MOST REALISTIC OF HEROES.

hmmmn end on an intimate note? perhaps have three of the main characters in an emotional showdown that ends in one of their deaths?

that could work.

 

[Commodore Schmidlapp]

this thread is full of lame

Perhaps the best post I've read in a long time, very true.

 

[abcdefz]

hmmmn end on an intimate note? perhaps have three of the main characters in an emotional showdown that ends in one of their deaths?

that could work.

Crying together on a rooftop, for instance.

 

[miggizle85]

Crying together on a rooftop, for instance.

Damn you Spider-Man 3!!!! Damn you to hell!!!!!

 

[miggizle85]

My biggest disapointment was the ending (sort of). Not the actual ending where Batman is running from the cops, no that was epic and one of my favorite parts. No I'm talking about the the last 30 mins of the film. After Joker escaped from the jail and Rachael blew up the film just kind of takes a nose dive for me. With the excpetion of the money burning scene, the Joker nurse scene, and the Batman v. Swat scene, the rest of the movie just didn't satisfy me.

For me the whole disapointment starts at the scene where Bruce is mourning Rachael's death. It was a great scene and it ended awesomely. I especially like Alfred's line about how they "burned the forest down" to catch the bandit in Burma. Okay so after that scene I'm totally hyped and eager to see how that analogy is going to relate to Batman's current situation. I was like "Okay... this is the start of THE BEST part of the movie, I know it. If you thought that Joker Semi-Truck scene was amazing then this next part is going to blow that one out of the water". And in my mind I was picturing Gotham city being evacuated and then suddenly being blown to smithereens (by Batman or Gordan or even them just allowing Joker to blow it up). That's how I thought Batman was going to "burn the forest down". I even had images of the posters where Batman is standing in front of the Burning building and where Joker is standing with all kinds of rubble flying past him. I was like "Here we go mother f%cker. Oh yeah."

Instead we get a cheesey ass boat scene, and the cheesey ass Bat sonar. Bat Sonar. That was Batman's version of "burning the forest down". Wow real extreme Batman. Oh no "this.. is.. wrong". Yeah it's wrong. It's anti-climatic that's why.

Still the Swat fight scene was awesome. The Joker's last fight with Batman could've been better had it not been cut down and spliced with the boring ass Boat scene. The Joker's final shot was definately disapointing (falling while laughing was cool but being captured by swat with no other mention whatsoever was kinda lame). And finally that Two-Face "death" scene was lame as hell. Like someone else said "Batman could've found a million other ways to handle that situation than how he did". He has gadgets, ninja training, Kevlar armor, grapple hooks, throwing "thingys". He didn't have to get shot like a ***** and then outta nowhere just maul Harvey Dent sending him falling to his apparent death and putting Gordan's son in danger as well. Still the very last scene was so emotional and epic that it made up for those disapointing last 30 mins and "The Dark Knight" is still easily the best movie of the year for me. But it could have been just that much better if those last 30 mins hadn't been so lame.

 

[Bowl of Wrong]

this thread is full of lame

How very insightful. Now, after your intervention, no longer will people voice their opinions on a topic, or in a manner, that displeases you. Well played you, continue fighting the good fight.

 

[dodgers2213]

You know when would have been the best time for Batman to throw a batarang? When Harvey was waving his gun around at Gordon's finally

alas, we get no batarang...no batarang the entire course of the film

 

[Ziggyman]

You know when would have been the best time for Batman to throw a batarang? When Harvey was waving his gun around at Gordon's finally

alas, we get no batarang...no batarang the entire course of the film

You kind of risk impaling one of them in the head...Then he would actually be killing someone!

 

[Banquet]

this thread is full of lame

no, it's full of another thread, and it's blowing my mind.

 

[Ratatat]

I was sorry that this scene was cut:

LOL That is the coolest thing I've ever seen!

 

[I Am The Knight]

no, it's full of another thread, and it's blowing my mind.

Yeah...What was that all about? Obnoxious multi-quoting

 

[Double Down]

One thing I predicted during the movie didn't happen, but I wish it would have. When the people on the boats had their remote control to blow up the other ship, I wish one of them would have pushed the button ... only to find out that it blew up their own boat. That seems like the kind of messed-up thing the Joker would do.

 

[dodgers2213]

You kind of risk impaling one of them in the head...Then he would actually be killing someone!

Dude....its freakin batman

You don't think Batman can throw his Batarangs with accuracy? His freakin Ninja

 

[krisl]

One thing I predicted during the movie didn't happen, but I wish it would have. When the people on the boats had their remote control to blow up the other ship, I wish one of them would have pushed the button ... only to find out that it blew up their own boat. That seems like the kind of messed-up thing the Joker would do.

Hopefully that's how it would have played out if it hadn't copped out to la fromage.