Black Panther is a movie with no villains. Discuss

[KRYPTON INC.]

Dude’s name is Killmonger and he’s marked his body with every kill he’s had. Yeah, he’s clearly not meant to be a villain...

Those scars are the record of how often he's changed minds with rational discourse.

 

[Knight-Tale]

Did we watch the same movie? Just because T'Challa's position changed on Wakanda's sharing of resources doesn't mean he incorporated his whole viewpoint. Do you see Wakanda trying to conquer everybody and destabalize governments? No, T'Challa is going about it the peaceful way. Killmonger is not portrayed as a hero. T'Challa calls him a monster several times. The main characters continuously point out how evil and filled with hate he is. They point out his flaws plenty of times.

Wanting to liberate oppressed people across the globe is a lot better than doing nothing and saying you only care about "your own people"
T'challa didn't even change when Nakia brought up a similar subject in the beginning of the movie and that's his love interest
So clearly there must be something to Killmonger's revolution that struck a cord

It should be pretty obvious all the characters calling him evil and full of hate are operating from a position of ignorance because all they see is someone else on the throne and what he did to get there.

After all the majority of them only care about Wakandan tradition and not what is actually right vs wrong. Notice how no one objects to his plan until T'challa shows up

Tell me again why its okay for Wakanda to have sleeper cells in other countries but Killmonger actually using those resources that T'challa and other kings put in place to not just conquer but help people makes him bad.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Wanting to liberate oppressed people across the globe is a lot better than doing nothing and saying you only care about "your own people"
T'challa didn't even change when Nakia brought up a similar subject in the beginning of the movie and that's his love interest
So clearly there must be something to Killmonger's revolution that struck a cord

There is a thing in movies called a characters arc. When Nakia brought this up earlier in the film, T'Challa's memory of his dad was he was an all-wise king. So he was still seeing the world as his father saw it. Once he discovers the truth of what his father did, it shakes his confidence in his father and questions what he previously believed. That is called character growth. Again, the villain can have good points, and T'Challa sees the good points he makes. But, he never the less calls Killmonger a "monster" and outright tells Killmonger he has becomes just like the people he hates. T'Challa is resisting Killmonger plenty, even if he concedes on 1 key point.

It should be pretty obvious all the characters calling him evil and full of hate are operating from a position of ignorance because all they see is someone else on the throne and what he did to get there.

After all the majority of them only care about Wakandan tradition and not what is actually right vs wrong. Notice how no one objects to his plan until T'challa shows up

Okuye objected. She is loyal to the throne at the end of the day, but she voiced objection.

Tell me again why its okay for Wakanda to have sleeper cells in other countries but Killmonger actually using those resources that T'challa and other kings put in place to not just conquer but help people makes him bad.

The Wakandan spies are not actively trying to take down foreign governments and such. They seem mostly to just be there for intel. It's is 1000% different. Heck, even the spies in most places are said to be resisting Killmonger's plan and won't immediately carry it out.

 

[Flint Marko]

Kilmonger is clearly the villain but I do think that there's merit in the idea that he ultimately had a hand in changing Wakanda for the better. Does that redeem him in any capacity? Not at all. He's the villain, and giving in to his hatred and frustration makes that undeniable. But he is one of the few villains who actually made some decent points.

 

[Mjölnir]

If anyone had a legitamate rebuttal to any of therhetoric of killmonger I didn't hear it. That's why the movie props up his message because nobody challenged or invalidated it. The hero even incorporates his viewpoint in his own way
Conscious decision by the Director
All Okoye could say is Wakanda doesn't conquer not "Your way is bad"
All T'challa could do is either say I am King, You are no better than the oppressors, or look sad

Killmonger's viewpoint drives him to arm all the black people so they can overthrow the governments that he thinks oppress them and take control as rulers themselves. That's what he focuses on doing when he's gotten control. He's very much of an "us against them" mentality, where he just wants to reverse the roles instead of eradicate the problems of the past and move forward.

T'Challa ends up opening up Wakanda to offer support and cooperation with other nations, changing Wakanda policy to see itself as part of the world together with everyone else.

There's a very clear difference between what Killmonger set out to do when he had the power, and what T'Challa set out to do at the end when he regained it. That's also the clear difference between a villain and a hero. It's not that they can't have understandable or sympathetic motivations, it's that they get driven to bad actions by them instead of trying to stay good.

 

[Quasimod0]

I agree with Mjolnir above me. Killmonger wanted to set the world back with more violence. Ultimately T'Challa elected to help the world move forward by uniting with other countries, not waging war on them.

Erik Stevens was absolutely a villain. He wanted to reshape the world to be better in his own eyes, through violence and murder. Just as many many evil people throughout history wanted to do.

 

[Knight-Tale]

reshape the world =/= giving resources to oppressed people and toppling repressive regimes
I mean its pretty easy to to ignore if you just listen to the dumb platitudes spouted by the people against Killmonger who don't even really have a rebuttal to anything he says in the movie. I keep stressing this is important
If you want to say Killmonger is wrong then actually have someone in the movie say why he is wrong

Providing weapons to oppressed groups in different countries is a lot different then actually staging a coup and having Wakanda rule the world.

What was Killmonger trying to do? rule the world or help black people in other countries
Either way removing all of the rhetoric and intentions from his plan it seemed fairly harmless in general as he is actually putting the power to do something in other people's hands not his own

Who would have died if one ship left the wakandan border? This movie probably had the lowest stakes of any marvel movie

 

[Spider-Fan]

reshape the world =/= giving resources to oppressed people and toppling repressive regimes
I mean its pretty easy to to ignore if you just listen to the dumb platitudes spouted by the people against Killmonger who don't even really have a rebuttal to anything he says in the movie. I keep stressing this is important
If you want to say Killmonger is wrong then actually have someone in the movie say why he is wrong

Again, Okuye did. As did T'Challa. Or are we ignoring these examples?

Providing weapons to oppressed groups in different countries is a lot different then actually staging a coup and having Wakanda rule the world.

Yes, but this is exactly what many countries do. You don't send your soldiers, you send weapons to those you want in power. This is not uncommon.

What was Killmonger trying to do? rule the world or help black people in other countries
Either way removing all of the rhetoric and intentions from his plan it seemed fairly harmless in general as he is actually putting the power to do something in other people's hands not his own

Who would have died if one ship left the wakandan border? This movie probably had the lowest stakes of any marvel movie

Direct Killmonger quote: "The sun will never set on the Wakandan Empire."

Killmonger was providing the weapons so the other countries became unstable and either he can swoop in and conquer or force them to basically be his Dukes. Reshape the world as he saw fit.

As far as the one ship, yeah that is true. But, Killmonger could make more weapons and try again if he was not stopped. They have a mountain full of Vibranium, so there is no shortage.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

There was a pretty good piece in The Atlantic touching on this the other day. Definitely worth a read; here’s a taste:

Spoiler

Killmonger’s stated purpose, to liberate black people all over the world, has sparked a lively discussion over whether he is a bad guy to begin with. What could be so bad about black liberation? “I fist-pumped in the silent, dark theater when he was laying out his plans,” writes Brooke Obie at Shadow and Act. “IT’S A GOOD IDEA!” That Coogler’s villain has even inspired this debate is a testament to how profound and complex the character is.

“In the end, all comes down to a contest between T’Challa and Killmonger that can only be read one way,” writes Christopher Lebron in a well-argued piece in Boston Review, “in a world marked by racism, a man of African nobility must fight his own blood relative whose goal is the global liberation of blacks.”

This is not actually what happens in the film. Killmonger’s goal is, in his eyes, the global liberation of black people. But that is not truly his goal, as Coogler makes clear in the text of the script and in Killmonger’s interactions with other characters. Like Magneto, another comic-book character who is a creation of historical trauma—the Holocaust instead of the Middle Passage—Killmonger’s goal is world domination. “The sun will never set on the Wakandan empire,” Killmonger declares, echoing an old saying about the British Empire, to drive the point home as clearly as possible. He sees no future beyond his own reign; he burns the magic herbs Wakandan monarchs use to gain their powers because he does not even intend to have an heir.

It is remarkable that many viewers seem to have taken the “liberation” part at face value, and ignored the “empire” part, which Jordan delivers perfectly. They are equally important. Killmonger’s plan for “black liberation,” arming insurgencies all over the world, is an American policy that has backfired and led to unforeseen disasters perhaps every single time it has been deployed; it is somewhat bizarre to see people endorse a comic-book version of George W. Bush’s foreign policy and sign up for the Project for the New Wakandan Century as long as the words “black liberation” are used instead of “democracy promotion.” Killmonger’s assault begins in London, New York, and Hong Kong; China is not typically known as a particularly good example of white Western hegemony in need of overthrow.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/02/black-panther-erik-killmonger/553805/

 

[Mjölnir]

Yes, if you don't get that Killmonger is looking to create a new empire and just reverse the roles of history then you probably need to watch the film again since you apparently forgot some things. When they even have the character directly talk about a Wakandan empire it's not really possible to miss the point.

 

[Knight-Tale]

Wakanda has sleeper cell spies in every nation on the planet called war dogs
Many in this thread are doing what Ross was doing in the film unintentionally intimating that the nation is no threat and akin to a third world country whose politics is being manipulated by a warmonger. He wanted to create a Wakandan empire(like there isn't one already)
He said the sun would never set on the Wakandan Empire

Killmonger's stated goal is black liberation
Nobody in the movie said anything against that goal They just had issue with how Killmonger went about it. Which is with violence and breaking the wakandan tradition of isolationism.

If supplying oppressed people's with weapons to give them power is evil then you might as well say all the major powers in the world are evil.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Wakanda has sleeper cell spies in every nation on the planet called war dogs
Many in this thread are doing what Ross was doing in the film unintentionally intimating that the nation is no threat and akin to a third world country whose politics is being manipulated by a warmonger. He wanted to create a Wakandan empire(like there isn't one already)
He said the sun would never set on the Wakandan Empire

Killmonger's stated goal is black liberation
Nobody in the movie said anything against that goal They just had issue with how Killmonger went about it. Which is with violence and breaking the wakandan tradition of isolationism.

If supplying oppressed people's with weapons to give them power is evil then you might as well say all the major powers in the world are evil.

Are you going to keep ignoring the examples of people doing that very thing that I provided you? Right now it seems like you are.

 

[Knight-Tale]

Are you going to keep ignoring the examples of people doing that very thing that I provided you? Right now it seems like you are.

You failed to even address the point
You listed two characters who stated that they didn't like Killmonger's methods or disagreed with him on principle but not on merit
I'm talking about them invalidating his goal which is black liberation and helping oppressed people with Wakandan tech and resources

Okoye said Wakanda has only been prosperous because of their isolationism and then said his heart was full of hatred to be a good king
Her point isn't even about helping people but keeping Wakanda successful essentially the same "who cares about the rest of the world" response that you saw from T'challa
T'challa said Killmonger was no better than the people he hated and also said he is King of Wakanda not the rest of the world
Neither point addressed what Killmonger was trying to achieve and that's why so many people think he was right.
Because those are the only two characters who could really muster any dissent against him and it was weak




Neither of them said anything against his goal but took issue

 

[Spider-Fan]

You failed to even address the point
You listed two characters who stated that they didn't like Killmonger's methods or disagreed with him on principle but not on merit
I'm talking about them invalidating his goal which is black liberation and helping oppressed people with Wakandan tech and resources

Again, Okuye said conquest and getting involved in the affairs of others is not the Wakandan way. In other words, don't use the resources this way. Therefore, yes she did.

Okoye said Wakanda has only been prosperous because of their isolationism and then said his heart was full of hatred to be a good king
Her point isn't even about helping people but keeping Wakanda successful essentially the same "who cares about the rest of the world" response that you saw from T'challa

In other words, they're saying it is not our responsibility. Therefore they disagreed with him on using the resources that way, therefore 2 prominent characters said it was a bad idea.

T'challa said Killmonger was no better than the people he hated and also said he is King of Wakanda not the rest of the world
Neither point addressed what Killmonger was trying to achieve and that's why so many people think he was right.
Because those are the only two characters who could really muster any dissent against him and it was weak

To an extent, Killmonger was inevitably right. That doesn't make him the hero of the story or somehow not a villain. Clearly while he had an honorable goal (again to an extent cause their was a lust for power element too), he was going about it the wrong way. The movie makes it clear Killmonger was wrong in that regard. Further, why is it a problem if Killmonger is right to an extent?

 

[Mjölnir]

The difference between a villain and a hero is often just the means they use to achieve their goals.

 

[Knight-Tale]

The movie already showed that T'chaka was wrong for holding onto those beliefs(beliefs which got Killmonger's father killed and left him abandoned in the street) so at that point in the movie why would anyone think Okoye would be right for essentially saying the same stuff?
Why should Killmonger respect any of them when he knows their thinking like this is part of the problem.
He reflected as such during his talk with his dad calling Wakandans "lost"

T'challa shouted his father and all the past kings down


If the movie was longer I'm sure we would have seen more dissent about the lead up to the after credits scene

To me you needed a character like Killmonger to shake up everyone's belief system. If his goal wasn't so right and strong it would have been too easy for T'challa to keep the same system up

 

[Spider-Fan]

The movie already showed that T'chaka was wrong for holding onto those beliefs(beliefs which got Killmonger's father killed and left him abandoned in the street) so at that point in the movie why would anyone think Okoye would be right for essentially saying the same stuff?
Why should Killmonger respect any of them when he knows their thinking like this is part of the problem.
He reflected as such during his talk with his dad calling Wakandans "lost"

T'challa shouted his father and all the past kings down


If the movie was longer I'm sure we would have seen more dissent about the lead up to the after credits scene

To me you needed a character like Killmonger to shake up everyone's belief system. If his goal wasn't so right and strong it would have been too easy for T'challa to keep the same system up

Once again, the villain CAN be right to a certain extent. Doesn't make him a hero, nor is the movie glorifying how Killmonger was going about his plan.

 

[Mjölnir]

Once again, the villain CAN be right to a certain extent. Doesn't make him a hero, nor is the movie glorifying how Killmonger was going about his plan.

Yes, that's hardly anything new. Magneto has been doing what Killmonger did for a long time, just without there being an actual mutant nation. Their methods are what makes them villains.

 

[ctsketch]

Killimonger may have been a villain with great motivation but a villain nonetheless. starting a global war against all non blacks?

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yes, that's hardly anything new. Magneto has been doing what Killmonger did for a long time, just without there being an actual mutant nation. Their methods are what makes them villains.

Exactly. Plenty of villains have sympathetic motivations.

 

[EmperorCommodus]

How are the motivations sympathetic if a character wants to murder children? I'm genuinely curious about that part. How much further would Killmonger go? The disabled? The poor, perhaps? Just on the basis of them having the wrong skin colour? Who exactly fits into his definition of "oppressors"?

 

[Spider-Fan]

How are the motivations sympathetic if a character wants to murder children? I'm genuinely curious about that part. How much further would Killmonger go? The disabled? The poor, perhaps? Just on the basis of them having the wrong skin colour? Who exactly fits into his definition of "oppressors"?

You're confusing motivations and methods. His goal is to force Wakanda to use their advanced resources to better the way of life for black people everywhere. That is his motivation. His methods are giving them weapons so they can kill women, children, so on and so forth. While certainly his methods are VERY villainous, his core goal is sympathetic. Further based on his backstory, you can see why he may feel that way, even if clearly we want him to lose and see him as a bad person now.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

A smuggler and a guy that caused a civil war are not villains?

 

[Mjölnir]

Another example of a villain with sympathetic motivations is Dr Doom. He first set out to save his mother from hell, and then he's set on saving humanity as he's seen that there's only one way that humanity can keep on going.

Unfortunately for most that saving method is for him to become a complete authoritarian ruler over all humans, and he's also willing to kill a lot of people and commit other horrible deeds to get there.

 

[chaseter]

If Killmonger was never in the movie Wakanda would still be a 100% isolationist nation

Wrong.

Nakia did.