Bought/Thought "Cee Dubyah" Edition for Nov.15th 2007

BrianWilly said:
I think, like Scott said (is he even "Cyclops" anymore?), the bullets were more to prove a point. If the Hellfire Club were really there, he really would have shot a bunch of people and killed them, and their bodies would still be bleeding on the ground. But he didn't; as soon as he shot them, they just reform into someone else. If Scott wasn't fooled, there's only so much illusion that Emma can still maintain, especially in the minds of more than one person, 'cause remember; at the end of the day, all of these illusions were not caused by Cassandra Nova at all, but by Emma. And Emma is not nearly as powerful as most other telepaths we know like Xavier or Jean. And she was subconsciously fighting Cassandra every step of the way.
It's still the first time I've ever seen someone get past mental illusions by simply shooting them. Usually that does absolutely nothing. After the "beer can" fiasco it just felt like more "dumb logic" to me. Of course, I use as an avatar a character who famously uses a hockey stick as a weapon to fight ninjas, monsters, and lord knows what else, but bare with me. ;)

Plus, I really doubt bullets should stop Shaw. This is a guy who can take punches from Colossus who's an 85 ton tanker. Bullets really shouldn't do more than tick him off. But I've never actually seen Shaw get shot; if he has, anyone confirm or deny this belief of mine?

The notion of Scott using a handgun just also feels a little...meh. I get you could claim, "oh, the experience of optic blasts gives him good aim", but it just feels so..."common", as Frost might say. What next, a switchblade and a dinosaur? :p

In all my nitpicking, to be fair to Mr. Whedon, who I do like but who I feel can be overrated at times, I was wrong about some past estimates and it's worth acknowleding it. I once predicted he'd "have Kitty save the day again" here, and I was wrong. Sure, she naturally had a very pivotal role, but so did several characters here, which is good; I want to see a TEAM save the day, not just one character, so it was good. Scott naturally took charge but Kitty, Logan, and Beast (and Hisako) all got moments. Piotr did absolutely nothing, but to be fair, all he's really been good for in ASTONISHING was his resurrection/Ord fight in issues #4-5, and sleeping with Kitty. Whedon's expessed some "difficulty" with writing him in interviews, and it shows. But the other thing I was wrong about was, basically, "fearing Whedon was just turning Emma evil again and forgetting 12-13 years of canon". Nope, it was just Cassanda Nova. He scores points for actually being one of few writers these days besides Pak to acknowledge Morrison anymore. However, the whole "feeding on survivor's guilt" trip would have been made sweeter if he not only acknowledged Genosha, but the Hellions, an equally truamatic event that happened years earlier. It was her first stab at training teen mutants and she got to watch most of 'em die, basically.

What? Whedon make Scott more like Mal?? Don't be silly:O.

...

astonishseventeen-1.jpg

mal-serenity2.jpg


...what?
Yeah, see, I never even watched FIREFLY or SERINITY and I caught that. :o

It can get predictable when writers copy themselves shamelessly. Claremont and Bendis are examples of this. Can Whedon avoid that fate?
 
The end was confusing a little. Was Cassandra Nova trying to go in that little girls head?
 
Dread said:
It's still the first time I've ever seen someone get past mental illusions by simply shooting them. Usually that does absolutely nothing. After the "beer can" fiasco it just felt like more "dumb logic" to me.
They're real to him, so when he shoots them, they die:huh:

He's smart enough to know they aren't real but that doesn't mean they don't totally appear real, and since they're in his mind, he can interact with them...
 
Dread said:
Name me ONE heroine Bendis has ever written who ever read like something she was doing was an actual challenge, and she wasn't just a wisecracking perfection machine.

Deena Pilgrim.
jessica jones

Next!
 
gildea said:
Deena Pilgrim.
jessica jones

Next!
I actually meant a spandexed heroine. Not Jake suggested White Tiger, who I never read and so I'll take his word from it. I just see a Bendis who writes Spider-Man as a helpless incompetant moron and any heroine in a costume, regardless of powers, as ungodly unbeatable in a fight.

And not for nothing, Jessica Jones has been more competant than Ultimate Spider-Man has...EVER. USM puts the I in WIMP.
 
Dread said:
I actually meant a spandexed heroine. Not Jake suggested White Tiger, who I never read and so I'll take his word from it. I just see a Bendis who writes Spider-Man as a helpless incompetant moron and any heroine in a costume, regardless of powers, as ungodly unbeatable in a fight.

Carol Danvers hasn't been written as unbeatable in NA and neither has spiderwoman (particularly spiderwoman given the mess she found herself in).
Ultimate dazzler was hardly an unbeatable fighter either.

And why does it matter if they are wearing spandex? Isn't competence the issue not costume? (If it is though I'd still argue for jessica jones as a big part of her was that she was rubbish in the costume).

Dread said:
And not for nothing, Jessica Jones has been more competant than Ultimate Spider-Man has...EVER. USM puts the I in WIMP.

Firstly Jessica jones is an adult and spiderman is a kid in USM. Secondly he's had several more than competent showings against doc ock, venom, electro, the enforcers, rhino and so on I could list more but I think the point is made.



Doc Destruction said:
Okay how about someone he DIDN'T create? NEXT!

How about not changing the question mid way through when you don't get the answer you like?
 
gildea said:
Carol Danvers hasn't been written as unbeatable in NA and neither has spiderwoman (particularly spiderwoman given the mess she found herself in).
Ultimate dazzler was hardly an unbeatable fighter either.

And why does it matter if they are wearing spandex? Isn't competence the issue not costume? (If it is though I'd still argue for jessica jones as a big part of her was that she was rubbish in the costume).
Ultimate Sable = Unbeatable. Ultimate Elektra = Unbeatable. Maria Hill = Unbeatable. Shockwave/Jolie-lookalike = Unbeatable. Ultimate Spider-Woman = Unbeatable.

And for the record, Ms. Marvel's done more than Spider-Man, Cap, or Wolverine combined in NA. Spider-Woman also got to "pwn" Wolverine, a feat that not even Namor can do easily these days. Drew's sort of been wasted in NA lately, too, but that's another topic.

Firstly Jessica jones is an adult and spiderman is a kid in USM. Secondly he's had several more than competent showings against doc ock, venom, electro, the enforcers, rhino and so on I could list more but I think the point is made.
So? Spidey was a teenager in the 60's and he wasn't as blatently incompetant as he is in USM. I didn't mind it in the beginning but when he's still a crying, helpless mess at issue #100 as he was in issue #10, it gets old fast. I could list a far greater amount of instances where he couldn't beat his enemies.

Rhino is a "goon". They don't count. It's the arch-nemesis types that USM usually needs to be bailed out from. And he didn't beat Venom; the cops and the power line did. Last time Electro showed up, Thor beat him while Spidey was busy being the Six's ragdoll. And the Enforcers would've killed Spidey had J.J. not distracted them during the Cat storyline.

I get that Bendis wants to write him as being imperfect and all that, but he's frankly hit overkill with USM to the point where you can predict that USM will lose or need to bailed out at the end and be correct 75% of the time. He always needs to be rescued or led by the hand by someone else and can't figure out anything out on his own and spends much of his time an emo blubbering mess with 3 exclaimation points at the end of his sentances. And I could even tolerate all THIS, but then Clone Saga happened...

It's a shame that Bendis interprets "everyman" like a few writers do; as being incompetant. He makes mistakes all but the dumbest of readers see a mile coming, and it just doesn't change. USM is supposed to be a serial where stuff develops, all I see is Spidey finding new ways to lose, get himself unmasked, and cry. And now we have to deal with Sasaquatch MJ. :rolleyes:
 
Here comes Bored's "I waited almost a week before actually writing a review" spectacu-LAHR! Spoilers do follow, if that matters.

Y The Last Man #51- We finally learn the secret behind the plague that killed the males, and as it turns out, it was Ayuko's father, who had perfected a form of cloning that basically meant asexual reproduction. This had some kind of effect on the physiology of all sexually reproducing animals everywhere, much like when chimpanzees learned to use tools at the same time (it's how he explains it). He then worked on a monkey that would cause his pregnant daughter to miscarry just by being near her. That monkey was none other than Ampersand, who, by some twist of fate, ended up with Yorick instead. Since Ampersand was messed with to survive the end of the male gender, somehow that also protected Yorick (yeah, it's all kind of confusing). Anywho, Toyota fights with 355, and they seem to kill each other. So yeah, lots of big things in this issue. 7/10

Astonishing X-Men #18- I couldn't say if anything else needs to be said in this thread. Anyway, it's still a bit strange, but they got some funny moments out of it, Emma's not really evil, just crazy, and someone will probably die during the next arc. Having seen "Serenity", I know that Joss isn't afraid of killing major characters. 7/10

Cable and Deadpool #34- Cable's not really dead (duh), the people of Rumekistan really like him, Deadpool's kicked out of the country (honeymoon is officially over, I guess, which is a shame), and Domino is scheming now. I doubt it's really just her trying to hook up with Cable, but either way, I look forward to a catfight between her and Irene. 7/10

Civil War #5- ZOMGSPIDEYFINALLYSWITCHEDSIDES. Okay, now that that "surprise" is out of the way, the goods. Johnny and Sue have to pose as husband and wife in public, which grosses both of them, and all the readers of this mini, out. Reed is really bummed about the FF breaking up (CW hasn't addressed it yet, but Ben left the country because he was tired of the conflict). SHIELD activates the new Thunderbolts/captured villains, and sends some (though not as many as the cover would imply) after Spidey. Jester and Jack-O-Lantern chase him into the sewers and kick his ass. They beat him to within inches of his life, gas him, and are going to arrest him (to their dismay), when suddenly, boom, there go their heads. The Punisher has made his presence (and stance on the SHRA) known. He takes the unconscious Spidey to the Secret Avengers hide-out, revealing that he was the guy in the ski mask watching them (in other news, the sky is blue). He also basically forces himself into their ranks, which Cap refuses to dispute, feeling that they need him to help invade the Baxter Building. Oh yeah, and Tigra seems to be a spy. Lastly, Daredevil has been arrested, and his role in the series seems to have been a chance to call Tony Stark "Judas". Oh well. It's still a decent read, and there's no Clor. 7/10
 
Dread said:
Shockwave/Jolie-lookalike = Unbeatable

She han't really been in a real fight though. She just stands off to the side and does her thing. Anyways, she has a power that kinda makes her unbeatable when she faces some characters.



Dread said:
Spider-Woman also got to "pwn" Wolverine, a feat that not even Namor can do easily these days. Drew's sort of been wasted in NA lately, too, but that's another topic.


Atleast he had the balls to have a character beat Wolverine. Writers make him like the Batman of Marvel as far as beating people they probably shouldn't goes.
 
Dread said:
Ultimate Sable = Unbeatable. Ultimate Elektra = Unbeatable. Maria Hill = Unbeatable. Shockwave/Jolie-lookalike = Unbeatable. Ultimate Spider-Woman = Unbeatable.

Not disputing that he's written many, but you have claimed thats all he does. Technically I only need to provide one counter example to 'prove' you wrong.

Dread said:
And for the record, Ms. Marvel's done more than Spider-Man, Cap, or Wolverine combined in NA.

I'd probably agree with you on wolverine but not cap or spider-man. Of course your definition of "done" probably varies. Regardless she wasn't unbeatable.

Dread said:
Spider-Woman also got to "pwn" Wolverine, a feat that not even Namor can do easily these days.

Dread you're well aware there's no real reason that she she shouldn't have been able to do that. I know you're really not arguing based on the habit writers have of vastly over-powering logan.

Dread said:
Drew's sort of been wasted in NA lately, too, but that's another topic.

One I'd agree with. Her story was shoved to the side and wrapped due to CW

Dread said:
So? Spidey was a teenager in the 60's and he wasn't as blatently incompetant as he is in USM. I didn't mind it in the beginning but when he's still a crying, helpless mess at issue #100 as he was in issue #10, it gets old fast. I didn't mind it in the beginning but when he's still a crying, helpless mess at issue #100 as he was in issue #10, it gets old fast.

He was still older then given that he graduated by #29 in ASM. Given all that had happened in issue 100 I see no reason he had not to cry, there had been no experience like that prior to prepare him for it. Cripes most adults would have.
Its completely unfair to criticise bendis for trying to create more realistic character developement than comics in the 60's would have allowed.


Dread said:
I could list a far greater amount of instances where he couldn't beat his enemies.

Go on then. (not trying to be a jerk just curious as to whats greater). I'll do the counter list down below.


Dread said:
It's the arch-nemesis types that USM usually needs to be bailed out from. And he didn't beat Venom; the cops and the power line did.

Spidey was skelping him though, he was genuinely winning the fight, it wasn't him being saved.

Dread said:
Last time Electro showed up, Thor beat him while Spidey was busy being the Six's ragdoll.

So? First time he showed up spidey took care of him.

You can't claim incompetence based on the desire to IGNORE when he is competent.

Dread said:
And the Enforcers would've killed Spidey had J.J. not distracted them during the Cat storyline.

Spidey has beat them numerous times. You are well aware when enemies come back in comics they almost always provide a threat again.

Dread said:
USM is supposed to be a serial where stuff develops, all I see is Spidey finding new ways to lose, get himself unmasked, and cry. And now we have to deal with Sasaquatch MJ. :rolleyes:

Given you have difficulty acknowledging his victories that may be all your going to see.

Anyway the "victory list" as written by bendis
(the qualifications being a 'decent' level of villain bested by spidey physically or by other means)

The enforcers (a good few times)
Electro
Kingpin
(ie from the first arc where he outsmarted him)
Doc Ock (twice)
Kraven
(this is an arguable inclusion I'll cop too, just putting him in as he was so heavily hyped for the eventual reveal of him being useless, he can be ignored but he qualifies under arc long)
Just a Guy
(spiderman impersantor included as he was an arc long nemesis)
Venom
(included as he was getting outclassed by spidey, one could argue the cops saved venom)
The punisher
(anti hero, included because he is quite a big name)
Carnage
Deathlok
(included because the ultimates where having trouble taking him down until spidey interevened)
hobgoblin
(along with Kraven this is an iffy inclusion, spidey was outclassing harry and had him beaten a good few times, but intervention from the shield agents allowed harry to get back in the game each time)
Rhino (not really a 'goon' as he is in 616, I'd agree not an arc long threat but he is a reasonably powered name villain so I'd argue for inclusion)
 
Seriously guys did The Jester die in Decalogue or what. I am gonna be pretty pissed at you guys if no one read it. No excuse for skipping out on great comics:cmad:
 
Trying to reason with gildea will get you nothing more than a migraine, Dread. FYI.
 
Doc Destruction said:
Trying to reason with gildea will get you nothing more than a migraine, Dread. FYI.

The same can be said for you.
 
Doc Destruction said:
Bah, not true!

I can admit when I made a mistake, or when I'm wrong.

As can I and can link you to manys a time I have.
Given your interpretation of "reason" appears to include changing the argument midway through in this thread I seriously doubt you're given to admitting anything.

I only ever get in to these things cos people tend to make factually wrong generalisations. Slag off bendis all you like but slag him off for things he actually does, just not things you think he does.


Anyway I have these discussions frequently enough with dread and they are always amicable and reasonable go and bother someone else.
 
gildea said:
Not disputing that he's written many, but you have claimed thats all he does. Technically I only need to provide one counter example to 'prove' you wrong.
It's still a stereotype I hate seeing. Explain why I can open up one of his comics, see a heroine in a skin tight costume and think, "She'll triumph with zero effort, and be snippy about it" and be correct about 75% of the time? I'm not against strong heroines, but if even Superman can sometimes be challenged, seeing Bendis repeat a stereotype over and over gets tedious. One of his biggest problems is he simply repeats himself and rarely grows.

I'd probably agree with you on wolverine but not cap or spider-man. Of course your definition of "done" probably varies. Regardless she wasn't unbeatable.
She defeated Klaw with ease. Name me one supervillian that Cap, Wolverine, or Spider-Man beat with ease in NA. Heck, I'd argue after all the hoopla of Spidey & Wolverine being Avengers, they've both contributed very little. Spider-Man contributed some first-hand experience with Electro & the Savage Land but when it comes to actual fighting he's about on par with Arana (with a cold) in the usefulness factor. And Wolverine's been a non-factor.

Dread you're well aware there's no real reason that she she shouldn't have been able to do that. I know you're really not arguing based on the habit writers have of vastly over-powering logan.
I was just noting how it normally takes someone of Sentry's power level to "pwn" Wolverine instantly and naturally Drew gets to do that so she comes off tough. Name me the last time Spider-Man got to embarass Wolverine like that in a book that mattered (which excludes MTU #1, as that title Marvel cared enough to publish for 2+ years but not enough to do anything major with).

One I'd agree with. Her story was shoved to the side and wrapped due to CW
Yeah, she'd degenerated into "token girl". Then CW came along and rescued Bendis from underwhelming team arcs to focus on stronger individual character issues. But CW can't last forever and he'll still need to address these problems.

He was still older then given that he graduated by #29 in ASM. Given all that had happened in issue 100 I see no reason he had not to cry, there had been no experience like that prior to prepare him for it. Cripes most adults would have.
Its completely unfair to criticise bendis for trying to create more realistic character developement than comics in the 60's would have allowed.
It just seems that every time I read an USM arc now, Spidey is either crying, being unmasked, being rescued, or losing. Or being "out of his element". This was okay in the beginning but has gotten to the point where he's like a 50's Damsel in Distress and I cannot take him seriously as a superhero. INVINCIBLE's far less incompetant (and yes, I know he's physically more powerful, but not my point.).

And yes, Bendis has 20/20 hindsight on some matters. Considering decompression, 29 issues of ASM are almost on par with 100 issues of USM. I mean he's had 17 "adventure arcs" basically.

Go on then. (not trying to be a jerk just curious as to whats greater).

A clarification; by "goon", I meant villians who are not the stars of an arc and exist as either henchmen of someone else or random costumed freaks to start off an issue, like a Bond opening sequence. Rhino fits this description easily, as does Gladiator, Shocker, Killer Shrike and Omega Red.

Green Goblin - Spidey is unable to beat him, cops shoot him. First arc, justifiable.

I'll omit LEARNING CURVE since it was part of the "moral" and Ultimate Kingpin was, frankly, a complete moron until WARRIORS. He could have gotten rid of Spidey from the beginning and figured out his ID the same way Sable would later, but didn't because he was a moron (or plot convience). Bendis can't go on about "being more realistic" and yet enguage in shoddy character logic to maintain illusions. You cannot have it both ways. Kingpin was arrogant to the point of stupidity here.

Legacy - Harry, SHIELD, etc bail out Spider-Man from Green Goblin

Venom - Peter was not winning; at best it was a draw before police and a power line beats Venom. Some people hated the anti-climatic ending, but I didn't. Quite frankly the first story of USM I outright disliked would be CARNAGE and from there the book's been hit or miss.

Elektra & Black Cat - because they are buxom females, Spider-Man is utterly helpless to stop either of them, and both overwhelm him (the former more than once). The Handbook attempts to explain this via "bad luck from Cat", something Bendis never even hinted at and thus exists as Handbook baloney to clear things up. Elektra is not even a super-soldier like Cap is and has no excuse to pwn Spidey so badly.

Ultimate Six - Spidey "is their b!tch", as Bendis so elloquently states. Good to see no "one on one kung fu logic" from ASM ANNUAL #1, but this series was just Ultimates vs. the Six (or Five). Spidey gets in one punch on Osborn and the rest is him not wearing a mask, yelling, and being manhandled. He doesn't even try to fight. He's more useless than Jubilee was here, and including this mini as an USM arc rather than Ultimates is weak.

Nightmare - Spidey is helpless until Dr. Strange saves him.

Warriors - Again manhandled by Elektra

Sable - again manhandled by a buxom, unbeatable femm fatale

Vulture - needed Sable to rescue him

Ringer - utterly helpless, needs Kitty to save him.

Deadpool - see above

Vampires - Utterly helpless, needs Morbuis to save him.

Clone Saga - so far, pwned by Ultimate Spider-Woman, yet another buxom female. Spends entire issues in crying, screaming fits. Mark Grayson had his father turn on his entire planet and whined less.

Cancelling out Venom, my list shows that the last few arcs in a row, he's been a bit of a helpless feeb when it comes to the main villians of his arcs. Not henchmen, not random grunts. I mean the star attractions. It gets draining after a while.

And that's not even touching the conveluted baloney that Clone Saga has deevolved to. And I actually gave that story a chance for 3-4 issues.
 
Dread said:
It's still a stereotype I hate seeing. Explain why I can open up one of his comics, see a heroine in a skin tight costume and think, "She'll triumph with zero effort, and be snippy about it" and be correct about 75% of the time? I'm not against strong heroines, but if even Superman can sometimes be challenged, seeing Bendis repeat a stereotype over and over gets tedious. One of his biggest problems is he simply repeats himself and rarely grows.

Have to agree to disagree sir. His work on alias and powers alone would make a mockery of the 75% suggestion. (though i do agree in USM the statistic would probably rise to about 101% ;) )



Dread said:
I was just noting how it normally takes someone of Sentry's power level to "pwn" Wolverine instantly and naturally Drew gets to do that so she comes off tough.

you're criticising bendis on the basis of OTHER peoples bad writing. Thats grossly unfair.

Dread said:
Name me the last time Spider-Man got to embarass Wolverine like that in a book that mattered (which excludes MTU #1, as that title Marvel cared enough to publish for 2+ years but not enough to do anything major with).

ASM # 522 The new avengers arc.





Dread said:
It just seems that every time I read an USM arc now, Spidey is either crying, being unmasked, being rescued, or losing. Or being "out of his element". This was okay in the beginning but has gotten to the point where he's like a 50's Damsel in Distress and I cannot take him seriously as a superhero. INVINCIBLE's far less incompetant (and yes, I know he's physically more powerful, but not my point.).

And yes, Bendis has 20/20 hindsight on some matters. Considering decompression, 29 issues of ASM are almost on par with 100 issues of USM. I mean he's had 17 "adventure arcs" basically.

Thats a fair shout but I don't think hes been spidey for more than a year yet in the timeline (i may be wrong here). I do sympathise but I prefer this semi-realistic approach.




Dread said:
A clarification; by "goon", I meant villians who are not the stars of an arc and exist as either henchmen of someone else or random costumed freaks to start off an issue, like a Bond opening sequence. Rhino fits this description easily, as does Gladiator, Shocker, Killer Shrike and Omega Red.

Green Goblin - Spidey is unable to beat him, cops shoot him. First arc, justifiable.

I'll omit LEARNING CURVE since it was part of the "moral" and Ultimate Kingpin was, frankly, a complete moron until WARRIORS. He could have gotten rid of Spidey from the beginning and figured out his ID the same way Sable would later, but didn't because he was a moron (or plot convience). Bendis can't go on about "being more realistic" and yet enguage in shoddy character logic to maintain illusions. You cannot have it both ways. Kingpin was arrogant to the point of stupidity here.

Legacy - Harry, SHIELD, etc bail out Spider-Man from Green Goblin

Venom - Peter was not winning; at best it was a draw before police and a power line beats Venom. Some people hated the anti-climatic ending, but I didn't. Quite frankly the first story of USM I outright disliked would be CARNAGE and from there the book's been hit or miss.

Elektra & Black Cat - because they are buxom females, Spider-Man is utterly helpless to stop either of them, and both overwhelm him (the former more than once). The Handbook attempts to explain this via "bad luck from Cat", something Bendis never even hinted at and thus exists as Handbook baloney to clear things up. Elektra is not even a super-soldier like Cap is and has no excuse to pwn Spidey so badly.

Ultimate Six - Spidey "is their b!tch", as Bendis so elloquently states. Good to see no "one on one kung fu logic" from ASM ANNUAL #1, but this series was just Ultimates vs. the Six (or Five). Spidey gets in one punch on Osborn and the rest is him not wearing a mask, yelling, and being manhandled. He doesn't even try to fight. He's more useless than Jubilee was here, and including this mini as an USM arc rather than Ultimates is weak.

Nightmare - Spidey is helpless until Dr. Strange saves him.

Warriors - Again manhandled by Elektra

Sable - again manhandled by a buxom, unbeatable femm fatale

Vulture - needed Sable to rescue him

Ringer - utterly helpless, needs Kitty to save him.

Deadpool - see above

Vampires - Utterly helpless, needs Morbuis to save him.

Clone Saga - so far, pwned by Ultimate Spider-Woman, yet another buxom female. Spends entire issues in crying, screaming fits. Mark Grayson had his father turn on his entire planet and whined less.

Cancelling out Venom, my list shows that the last few arcs in a row, he's been a bit of a helpless feeb when it comes to the main villians of his arcs. Not henchmen, not random grunts. I mean the star attractions. It gets draining after a while.

And that's not even touching the conveluted baloney that Clone Saga has deevolved to. And I actually gave that story a chance for 3-4 issues.

Pete was definitely beating venom dread, the last three hits were all pete.

Its unfair to ignore the kingpin arc as well.

And we can ignore "ringer" under the goon rule

So its fairly even i'd say. (though I'd agree the last few arcs are on your side of things)
 
gildea said:
Have to agree to disagree sir. His work on alias and powers alone would make a mockery of the 75% suggestion. (though i do agree in USM the statistic would probably rise to about 101% ;) )
Jessica Jones wasn't a costumed heroine in ALIAS and POWERS isn't part of the MU.

you're criticising bendis on the basis of OTHER peoples bad writing. Thats grossly unfair.
Since when was life fair?

ASM # 522 The new avengers arc.
Right, I'd forgotten that one. Another instance of someone else writing the NA far better than Bendis did. Some people gasp in horror at the prospect of Bendis being an EIC but I actually could see it working. As an EIC, he would have to iron out his ideas with more of a "counsel" of editors and creators at meetings, which might mean an end of "yes-man" syndrome as he'd probably no longer be writing many books himself (Erik Larson barely manages to write his own SAVAGE DRAGON and run Image as a compairable example). Many times I honestly feel Bendis has good ideas. It's when it comes time to actually write them, with characters he may not have created and doesn't bother to understand beyond what HE wants them to be, is where he flounders, IMO.

Interestingly, the same "reinforced glass" that Spider-Man can punch Wolverine through merely by being irritated, he can't jump through with his entire body weight with added strength post THE OTHER and an armored costume on (in CW #5). Not Bendis' mistake but just saying, since you brought it up. I suppose someone could go, "maybe Stark just had it thickened behind the scenes", but as we have no hint of this in the text of the comics, it'd remain unproven theory, like if I wanted to claim fairies molest Stark in his sleep and that is why he's suddenly such a sourpuss.

Thats a fair shout but I don't think hes been spidey for more than a year yet in the timeline (i may be wrong here). I do sympathise but I prefer this semi-realistic approach.
That's another problem. People bemoan how the 616 Spider-Man franchise "hit a status quo" and yet I rarely see USM developping. After 100 issues, it would be okay to have him turn, gasp, 17 or something. Otherwise it just becomes like THE SIMPSONS, only without the excuse of being a comedy. Just because I'm sure the powers-that-be have no intention to ever have USM leave high school doesn't mean they can't at least "trick" us sometimes by having him get to another grade level or something. A lot of times when people attempt to use 20/20 hindsight to "improve" the flaws of a bygone era of comics, they simply repeat them in new ways, just with more pretentiousness.

Pete was definitely beating venom dread, the last three hits were all pete.

Its unfair to ignore the kingpin arc as well.

And we can ignore "ringer" under the goon rule

So its fairly even i'd say. (though I'd agree the last few arcs are on your side of things)
Peter and Venom were in "generic tackle" mode. His punches didn't really seem to be killing him either. And while I liked VENOM, that leads to another problem I had with USM, even back during it's peak. USM just gets unmasked or fights people who know who he is too damned often and this never ends. On the one hand, Bendis likes being clever and have things be a little more "realistic" like having Kong almost piece it together or having Sable find his school. And on the other hand, he engages in "Sunnydale Syndrome" crap where Peter can fight across the city with no gloves, mask, shoes, or even clothes and no one figures it out, where his neighborhood gets attacked on a weekly basis, and where all these people have unmasked him and the public still doesn't know who he is (not counting Kingpin's past ineptness; the guy redeemed himself in WARRIORS). Bendis goes on about, "I'm making his secret identity a really important thing that is hard to maintain" but misses the point; USM IS NOT MAINTAINING IT VIA ANY LOGICAL CONCLUSION BEYOND TYPICAL COMIC B.S., which Bendis believes he is "better than". It's a flaw I wish the book and Bendis would abandon but is there. Hell, I'd argue USM fights an enemy who unmasks him or knows his identity more often than he gets defeated.

If we go with my "goon" logic than the Enforcers and Rhino in your example don't count. At least you see my point about the last few arcs. I mean if, say, the last 4 arcs of NA involved a gorilla saving the day, would it be unfair to say something like, "Gorillas always save the day in NA and I'm damned tired of it?" The cold reality is that people pay attention to the present and the near recent, and the longer the distance between the past and now, the foggier the past becomes.
 
i've read your posts, dread, for a while now. i've also been reading the last few exchanges you've shared with some of the other posters in this thread. i can't help but think what a money wasting complainer you must be.

i mean, yes, you are very well spoken (er...typed), and you seem to know a lot about the last 5 or so years of marvel history. which you also seem to hate.

you obviously have problems with the way a lot writers construct their stories, and write the characters. why do you continue to shell out cash to support something you obviously do not enjoy?

you don't like whedon. fine. why buy astonishing x-men?

you don't like the way bendis writes usm. cool, me neither. the difference is, i don't buy that title.

it just seems like you continue to invest your time and money into this little hobby of ours only to complain profusely about things you don't like about it. which is pretty much everything.
 
Dread said:
Jessica Jones wasn't a costumed heroine in ALIAS and POWERS isn't part of the MU.
She was an ex costume hero in the mu whichi'd argue for the inclusion of and you didn't specify that it had to be in the MU.


Dread said:
Since when was life fair?

Its not. But we're not discussing life we're discussing comics. And really you're far too smart to hide behind that silly defense for this particular section of our debate.


Dread said:
Interestingly, the same "reinforced glass" that Spider-Man can punch Wolverine through merely by being irritated, he can't jump through with his entire body weight with added strength post THE OTHER and an armored costume on (in CW #5). Not Bendis' mistake but just saying, since you brought it up. I suppose someone could go, "maybe Stark just had it thickened behind the scenes", but as we have no hint of this in the text of the comics, it'd remain unproven theory, like if I wanted to claim fairies molest Stark in his sleep and that is why he's suddenly such a sourpuss.

Exactly my thoughts when i was checking the issue number.
At least your theory is quite plausible.


Dread said:
That's another problem. People bemoan how the 616 Spider-Man franchise "hit a status quo" and yet I rarely see USM developping. After 100 issues, it would be okay to have him turn, gasp, 17 or something. Otherwise it just becomes like THE SIMPSONS, only without the excuse of being a comedy. Just because I'm sure the powers-that-be have no intention to ever have USM leave high school doesn't mean they can't at least "trick" us sometimes by having him get to another grade level or something. A lot of times when people attempt to use 20/20 hindsight to "improve" the flaws of a bygone era of comics, they simply repeat them in new ways, just with more pretentiousness.

Dunno I like the fact that for the most part we are getting relatively simple superhero formula spidey stories as opposed to what we've been getting in 616. It just feels more traditional to me and has for a long while.


Dread said:
Peter and Venom were in "generic tackle" mode. His punches didn't really seem to be killing him either.

They weren't in generic tackle mode. Pete had just hit venom 3 times with a wheel (breaking his teeth and tounge of in the process) and venom was struggling to pick himself up off the ground when the cops interevened


Dread said:
If we go with my "goon" logic than the Enforcers and Rhino in your example don't count.

And neither would electra in yours, or the vulture.


Dread said:
At least you see my point about the last few arcs.

entirely my fault I should have said that RIGHT AT THE START.

Sorry :)




Dread said:
I mean if, say, the last 4 arcs of NA involved a gorilla saving the day, would it be unfair to say something like, "Gorillas always save the day in NA and I'm damned tired of it?" The cold reality is that people pay attention to the present and the near recent, and the longer the distance between the past and now, the foggier the past becomes.

I'd call you on the "always" bit yes.

I just think that the level of criticism in comics forums is pretty much rubbish and mr dread you are by far and away the best writer this site offers.
Like you come over harder on bendis due to his position as being marvels premier writer (in marvels opinion) I tend to pick up things you say in your review more frequently cos they are one of the very few worth reading and the best of the ones that are.

:)
 

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