Bought // Thought November 05 2008

[Dread]

Don't blame Ellis for that, blame the writers who choose to mimic those characterizations.

The problem was that Ellis used defined, named characters when he easily could have created cyphers like Dirk Anger (who was often funny). But, Oh! than the book may not have garnered as much attention as the often typical "throw a few B-List characters together and make them a team" as is often the rage.

Thus, other writers and editors took it as canon, or at least enough to take seriously. The Marvel Handbooks include this run as canon. Warren Ellis is a big name. It wasn't like he was some no name on MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS or something.

Just a shame they couldn't have been nearly as eager to "mimic" other characterizations, such as Dan Slott taking 8 issues to get Thing and Alicia back together. JMS & McDuffie ignored it and now Millar has Ben dating some random teacher. Foul!

 

[kguillou]

Just a quick random question, what's this "New Universe" thing i keep hearing marvel tried way back when? Was that their attempt at an "Ultimate" universe at the time?

 

[RockSP]

Just a quick random question, what's this "New Universe" thing i keep hearing marvel tried way back when? Was that their attempt at an "Ultimate" universe at the time?

It was a seperate universe like Ultimate but it used original characters, not reimagined Marvel characters. The characters aged in "real time".

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It also took place in the '80s and failed miserably. Take from that what you will...

Don't blame Ellis for that, blame the writers who choose to mimic those characterizations.

I do. I'm pretty disappointed that Van Lente, of all people, chose to stick with the Nextwave characterization in Marvel Zombies 3 in particular. Van Lante's up there with Slott and Cebulski for having a crazy-ass knowledge of all things Marvel and working continuity into his stories extremely effectively. Unfortunately, he chose a pretty crappy patch of continuity to pull from this time.

 

[fifthfiend]

He was a perfectly normal dude searching for his own humanity before that, which is how I liked him.

I like to think that he found his humanity and turns out it's a total jerkass.

 

[Darthphere]

Nextwave is the most overrated comic of our generation.

 

[Dread]

Nextwave is the most overrated comic of our generation.

And here I thought that distinction belonged to NEW AVENGERS or ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN.

 

[Blader5489]

It actually belongs to anything written by Geoff Johns.

 

[Darthphere]

It actually belongs to anything written by Geoff Johns.

If we're talking about anything Green Lantern related, yeah. Other than that, no.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

JSA's pretty overrated at the moment to me. Really, I think only his Flash run lives up to its hype, and even then it's mostly because of the Rogues, who totally stole the show from Wally in Johns' run. Wally could've been anybody, basically.

 

[Darthphere]

JSA's pretty overrated at the moment to me. Really, I think only his Flash run lives up to its hype, and even then it's mostly because of the Rogues, who totally stole the show from Wally in Johns' run. Wally could've been anybody, basically.

JSA is overrated now, Pre-OYL dude....

 

[Dread]

I never thought anyone would be belittling Johns' FLASH run. It was barely 2-3 years ago when everyone was proclaiming how awesome it was and to miss it was like an insult to the superhero genre. Not someone like Corp goes, "Eh, it was all about the rogues; Wally was just there". Yeesh.

 

[Blader5489]

If we're talking about anything Green Lantern related, yeah. Other than that, no.

I'm talking about anything Geoff Johns related. That's why I wrote "Geoff Johns," not "Green Lantern."

Of all his major superhero work, I think JSA might have been his best, if only because he was just telling solid superhero stories. Nothing mindblowing, and definitely overrated IMO, but it wasn't as unoriginal or even insulting as his GL, Action Comics, and Flash stuff are.

 

[Darthphere]

I'm talking about anything Geoff Johns related. That's why I wrote "Geoff Johns," not "Green Lantern."

Of all his major superhero work, I think JSA might have been his best, if only because he was just telling solid superhero stories. Nothing mindblowing, and definitely overrated IMO, but it wasn't as unoriginal or even insulting as his GL, Action Comics, and Flash stuff are.

wait, I forgot I was talking to you, nevermind. I can't afford another banning at this point.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I never thought anyone would be belittling Johns' FLASH run. It was barely 2-3 years ago when everyone was proclaiming how awesome it was and to miss it was like an insult to the superhero genre. Not someone like Corp goes, "Eh, it was all about the rogues; Wally was just there". Yeesh.

Whoa there, cowboy. I didn't belittle anything. It was awesome... because of the Rogues. Even when it was coming out, people freely admitted that Johns' handling of the Rogues and Keystone City itself were the best parts of his Flash run.

 

[Doc Destruction]

And here I thought that distinction belonged to NEW AVENGERS or ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN.

THOSE are.

And I personally love his Nextwave mode. Far more interesting than the typical woe-is-me robot crap from back in the day.

 

[Doc Destruction]

It actually belongs to anything written by Geoff Johns.

Ahh, I see your taste buds are still firmly entrenched in yer ass.

 

[Dread]

THOSE are.

And I personally love his Nextwave mode. Far more interesting than the typical woe-is-me robot crap from back in the day.

That is, I think, why the writers decided to keep NEXTWAVE in continuity. That, and frankly, I don't think the editors caught on and people probably presumed it was all the same continuity since it starred some B and C listers who at the time really weren't doing anything. Much as the continuity to X-STATIX PRESENTS: DEAD-GIRL (which was almost more about Dr. Strange than Dead-Girl) was a little fuzzy but is also likely canon.

The "suck it, fleshie" characterization of Machine Man simply trades one robot cliche for another. Unfortunately, it is a characterization that has more flash than substance, and flash is appealing. Just look at all the lights in Vegas. His normal characterization would work as long as a writer was skilled; Ellis' characterization is shorthand for clever, and too many writers attach to shorthand. There is a difference between genuine good writing and the illusion of good writing.

NEXTWAVE was like a Millar production in that it put more energy into mentioning how awesome it was than it did in actually being awesome.

I would prefer Machine Man to be "generic" than a parody of himself.

 

[Blader5489]

Ahh, I see your taste buds are still firmly entrenched in yer ass.

That's an image I could have lived without.

 

[BrianWilly]

I really like Johns' Wally. To say that Johns neglected him or something is just inaccurate, because he did do many good things with him.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Good but not great. I personally think Waid built Wally as the Flash from the ground up, redefining him and his whole world in ways no one before or since has managed to match. Johns did similarly excellent work with the Rogues and Keystone, but not as much with Wally himself.

 

[Blader5489]

I really like Johns' Wally. To say that Johns neglected him or something is just inaccurate, because he did do many good things with him.

That wasn't Wally, that was Barry Lite.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I wouldn't go that far. I thought Johns was true to Wally's character, he just didn't do anything too revolutionary with him.

 

[Anubis]

Well, he gave him back his secret ID. Made him a police mechanic, which I really think they should have kept. Damn crappy Didio shenanigans ended up losing it for him.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Those were good things, but do they really compare to creating the Speed Force, reviving Max Mercury, creating Impulse, drawing them, Jay, Johnny Quick, and Jesse Quick around Wally as a speedster family, having Wally help reform Heatwave and Pied Piper, etc.? I didn't really think Wally needed his secret ID back in the first place, either. The police mechanic thing was legitimately pretty cool, though.