BOUGHT/THOUGHT for January 9, 2008

[Phaedrus45]

Yes, you are actively trying to find problems. I've seen enough cop shows in my day to know that when you arrive at a crime scene, the first thing you do is secure it and you look for clues before they have a chance to disappear. Analysis comes later.

But, by your own admission, this is f'ed up. The crime scene wasn't secure...you had various super-powered individuals, many who might have possibly been involved, mucking it up. I'm not actively trying to find problems, I'm just responding to what you say. And, by what you said, it's screwy from that perspective.

This is so stupid that I'm not even going to debate it.

That's not stupid. You said yourself that how can I judge Hulk by issue #1 and come up with these supposed arguments against it that might not be true (i.e. it might not be the real Emil). From your own logic, the same should have been wondered by the Russian government concerning the dead body and who the murderer was. I'm just responding to your arguments against mine.

You are totally looking for things to have problems with. I mean, you can look past EVERYTHING wrong with the way BND is told (and I'm not even talking about the basic premise), but you have a problem with Russia calling SHIELD.

I'm judging the first issue of Slott's Spider-Man and it's writing and story to Hulk #1. To me, one is far superior. But, as I pointed out, this is my judgement, and I don't cloud it with my reaction to OMD. Same way I came into Hulk #1 not influenced by WWH. (And, if a point is that I'm influenced by Loeb's writing, then that would be false, too. I didn't look at who wrote this book until I was done reading it.)

If you're going to anal, quit doing it selectively.

Is that a "rim shot" I hear? Being anal is not looking at the obvious problems I see in a book from an initial reading and writing on them. Anal would be if I wrote paragraph after paragraph, going from frame to frame about my hatred of a comic and even telling about what from Loeb's past I might not have enjoyed that much. Anal would be pointing out the "be" in that last sentence. THAT'S ANAL!

You didn't read my post did you? Either that or you don't read Iron Man. Or is this one of your selective *****ings? Whichever it is, you're still wrong. The fact remains that SHIELD is at an all-time high in success and approval ratings. It's in the books, dude, straight from Kooning's mouth. Look it up.

Let's see, I point out ways in which I've read how SHIELD is a f'ed up organization and how it shouldn't be trusted, and you give me one writer saying it has high approval ratings. (Hmmm...and, the approval rating told us that Hillary Clinton wasn't going to win in New Hampshire, either.) Plus, those approval ratings wouldn't say anything about other countries...I would have to see what you are talking about. Give me the issue #.

 

[PhotoJones]

But, by your own admission, this is f'ed up. The crime scene wasn't secure...you had various super-powered individuals, many who might have possibly been involved, mucking it up. I'm not actively trying to find problems, I'm just responding to what you say. And, by what you said, it's screwy from that perspective.

Which is probably why Samson was so pissed.

That's not stupid. You said yourself that how can I judge Hulk by issue #1 and come up with these supposed arguments against it that might not be true (i.e. it might not be the real Emil). From your own logic, the same should have been wondered by the Russian government concerning the dead body and who the murderer was. I'm just responding to your arguments against mine.

Your arguments are ******ed, though. I mean, if I read a comic or watched a movie with this kind of scrutiny, I wouldn't enjoy ANYTHING. My God, dude.

I'm judging the first issue of Slott's Spider-Man and it's writing and story to Hulk #1. To me, one is far superior. But, as I pointed out, this is my judgement, and I don't cloud it with my reaction to OMD. Same way I came into Hulk #1 not influenced by WWH. (And, if a point is that I'm influenced by Loeb's writing, then that would be false, too. I didn't look at who wrote this book until I was done reading it.)

With the way you're nitpicking this to death, I'm wondering why you didn't do the same for Slott's book. I mean, you remember when the thug jacked his webshooter? Why was he wearing that, but you couldn't see his costme peeking out? Also, why did take his shoes off to run up the wall, if he still had his socks on? OH MY GOD IT WAS TERRIBLE.

That's exactly what you're doing with this book and I have no idea why.

Is that a "rim shot" I hear? Being anal is not looking at the obvious problems I see in a book from an initial reading and writing on them. Anal would be if I wrote paragraph after paragraph, going from frame to frame about my hatred of a comic and even telling about what from Loeb's past I might not have enjoyed that much. Anal would be pointing out the "be" in that last sentence. THAT'S ANAL!

But...that's what you're doing.

Let's see, I point out ways in which I've read how SHIELD is a f'ed up organization and how it shouldn't be trusted, and you give me one writer saying it has high approval ratings. (Hmmm...and, the approval rating told us that Hillary Clinton wasn't going to win in New Hampshire, either.) Plus, those approval ratings wouldn't say anything about other countries...I would have to see what you are talking about. Give me the issue #.

Iron Man #15. Now, shut up about it.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Iron Man #15. Now, shut up about it.

Ah. That approval rating comes at the beginning of Tony's taking over at SHIELD. And, a review states:

http://www.comixtreme.com/gallery/data/media/1165/IRONMAN15.jpg"The framework of this story takes place in Washington, D.C., within the offices of The Pentagon. High-ranking S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, “Dum Dum” Dugan, is talking with Jack Kooning, the Secretary of Defense. Dugan feels that the agency is falling apart under Stark’s command, despite the success rate achieved since his appointment."

This was right after Civil War, when America wanted change and the fighting between both sides ended. It doesn't say this approval rating is for other countries. Much of my arguments about why SHIELD wouldn't be wanted come after this issue. (For example, the upcoming death of Captain America would have brought that number quite a bit lower, imo. This issue came out the same day as Captain America #25, and those events wouldn't have effected that rating.)

THAT'S nitpicking!

Now, I'll shut up about it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Polls and approval ratings are different. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[Dread]

I'm probably one of the worst reviewers there is, mainly because I do not have the talent of someone, like Dread, who can write about one issue the amount of writing I do for 10.

Thanks. I wouldn't consider you "one of the worst reviewers there is", though, for what that's worth.

I mean, you buy EVERYTHING, even stuff I wouldn't touch. That counts for a lot.

It is interesting watching another knock-down debate that I have no part of.

As for WOLVERINE, the funny thing is, what makes him work in stories is something we saw little of in 2007, save for random annuals, or one-shots like FIREBREAK. Wolverine works when he is being the best there is at what he does. Instead, we keep getting origin conspiracy theories, mystical retcons, wonky beastial-evolution theories, and so on. That's never made Wolverine terribly interesting, at least not for the past 5 years or more. It is nice that the last WOLVERINE arc wanted to tone down his ridiculous regeneration power levels, but that could have easily been done by a sane editorial edict ("Hey, fellas, Wolverine can't regenerate in one page from napalm to the face, alright?").

In some ways, Wolverine's plight can be compared to Spider-Man's; instead of finding the basics of what worked and running with that, the editorial dept. keeps getting writers who want to heap on more back-story, or retcons that don't fit, or reset buttons, or whatever. Trying to fix what isn't broken while ignoring what is. The difference is that Wolverine at least hasn't been seriously harmed by it as a franchise this year. I mean WOLVERINE ORIGINS hardly gets buzz at all anymore, and while it sells decently, hardly anyone discusses it. It reminds me of X-MEN UNLIMITED a year before cancellation. Spider-Man, on the other hand, has probably the worst ill will of any new launch in recent memory right now. Not even the end of CW sparked that much outrage as OMD #4, even though the writing was on the wall for about a year and a half.

Still, to focus on the positive, if THE TWELVE is but a hint of cool new teams to come, with THE LAST DEFENDERS up in about 2 months, 2008 will be a solid year.

 

[Anubis]

about time somebody put the date up correctly.

 

[Dread]

about time somebody put the date up correctly.

Oh, you mean a non-Canadian?

 

[Anubis]

Silly Hockey pucks and their wrong looking dates.

 

[Phaedrus45]

In some ways, Wolverine's plight can be compared to Spider-Man's; instead of finding the basics of what worked and running with that, the editorial dept. keeps getting writers who want to heap on more back-story, or retcons that don't fit, or reset buttons, or whatever. Trying to fix what isn't broken while ignoring what is. The difference is that Wolverine at least hasn't been seriously harmed by it as a franchise this year. I mean WOLVERINE ORIGINS hardly gets buzz at all anymore, and while it sells decently, hardly anyone discusses it. It reminds me of X-MEN UNLIMITED a year before cancellation. Spider-Man, on the other hand, has probably the worst ill will of any new launch in recent memory right now. Not even the end of CW sparked that much outrage as OMD #4, even though the writing was on the wall for about a year and a half.

I really don't know why the whole retcon of Spider-Man didn't upset me. All I can figure is 1) I thought as a stand-alone story, OMD was decently written, and 2) unlike with what Bendis did with the whole Secret Wars/Beyonder story in The Illuminati #3, that stuff all did still happen. I mean, everything had to happen to lead up to the events in OMD. (Plus, I heard all the complaining about Peter kissing another gal on Howard Stern before I read that issue...what a case of judging something before reading it. Peter wasn't kissing that girl, as I found it; he was kissed BY her.) As I said when the final issue of OMD came out, if it takes a retcon to make this book good, how can that be wrong in the end? (Don't forget, people were pissed off when Bucky came back; now, most of us praise that decision.)

 

[Dread]

I really don't know why the whole retcon of Spider-Man didn't upset me. All I can figure is 1) I thought as a stand-alone story, OMD was decently written, and 2) unlike with what Bendis did with the whole Secret Wars/Beyonder story in The Illuminati #3, that stuff all did still happen. I mean, everything had to happen to lead up to the events in OMD. (Plus, I heard all the complaining about Peter kissing another gal on Howard Stern before I read that issue...what a case of judging something before reading it. Peter wasn't kissing that girl, as I found it; he was kissed BY her.) As I said when the final issue of OMD came out, if it takes a retcon to make this book good, how can that be wrong in the end? (Don't forget, people were pissed off when Bucky came back; now, most of us praise that decision.)

But bringing back Bucky didn't happen in 4 issues. It took about 14. Getting him to then become New Cap didn't happen in 2 years; it has taken almost 3. Brubaker took time to build to the new status quo so it felt natural. OMD was 4 delayed issues cramming everything into a cosmic reset button, just on the whim of the EIC who has chosen the wrong excuse for why the Spider-Franchise was in a doldrum.

Had Slott just been given ASM, without OMD, and given 1-3+ years on it like Brubaker was on Cap, I have no doubt he would have found ways to work with what was while trying to bring back the basics, and making it feel more organic than the hashed out thing with Joe Q and JMS. But, that didn't happen.

Besides, the status quo after OMD with what works and what doesn't, what is in continuity and what is negated, is more of a mess than a 2 page spread from Romita Jr. can reveal. There are a messload of things to have to contend with, something DC has had to do a lot of times after all their Crises'. Was Superman originally Superboy and in the Legion, or not? That varies every decade. That's only the easiest example. Now Spider-Man has to contend with those same problems. Is he still a New Avenger? If everyone has forgotten his identity, where does that leave Norman Osborn, who is back, too? Or Black Cat?

Brubaker in CA in contrast is fairly simple. A few tweaks were made to the past in the name of, "Cap didn't have total recall when he was revived 12-13 years ago and his memory was tainted by military files", but it wasn't just shoved out in 4 issues, and involved an element that had nothing whatsoever to do with the franchise, as Mephisto did with Spider-Man.

I don't doubt that whatever can be done to work with and after OMD, Slott can do it better than most. I just am not in the mood to read it right now. It is too raw. And I hated OMD #4 too much. I've had to read a lot of Spider-agita since PRELUDE TO CW started (and that came off the cluster**** that was THE OTHER), and I need a break.

Just because some angles of Spidey had gone too far into some corners didn't mean I and likely others just wanted someone to go, "Bibbity, Bobbity, Boo!" and shift things back to 1971, then awkwardly try to thrust it into the modern continuity again.

USM is now also more redundant than ever, unless one needs, "ASM has adult, 616, immature man-child Parker living with his aunt and never committing to any woman, ever", and USM has, "Ultimate, teenage, immature man-child Parker living with his aunt and never committing to any woman, ever".

I could go on and on about this, but I really would rather not. I got some stuff signed by Slott. Some good books like SPIRIT, NOVA, THE TWELVE, and P:WJ came out. Even MIGHTY AVENGERS wasn't bad. I need a Spider-Break.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Well, I have to totally disagree about Mighty Avengers...but, that's beside the point.

Actually, I don't feel that OMD was all done in 4 issues. From interviews over a year ago, it really seemed that the writers were all heading in this direction, and you can even argue that this was almost a full year in the making, as Aunt May got shot in February. Everything about that event and Peter wearing the black costume leads to OMD.

 

[Dread]

Well, I have to totally disagree about Mighty Avengers...but, that's beside the point.

Actually, I don't feel that OMD was all done in 4 issues. From interviews over a year ago, it really seemed that the writers were all heading in this direction, and you can even argue that this was almost a full year in the making, as Aunt May got shot in February. Everything about that event and Peter wearing the black costume leads to OMD.

Which is a reset. It makes as much sense as trying to get all the LEGEND OF ZELDA games to fit into a storyline order.

The Unmasking was a big deal, so if it was so "right", why a year later has it been erased? Slott was gently trying to tuck things back, OMD just negated it from existance. And there are so many ways May could have been saved without Mephisto, it isn't even funny. Or he could have listened to the woman herself, and let go. Spider-Man isn't supposed to be about magic deals with Satan. That's Ghost Rider.

Anyway, so HEROES REBORN she-Bucky is in 616 now!?

 

[GNR]

I have no interest whatsoever in the BND/OMD stuff,but with Thor and The Twelve,JMS has been putting out some good stuff.

I'm in the rare few,yes there are a small number of us,that didn't mind Ultimates 3.1.Hulk #1 was a solid read,the only thing that ruined it was the fact that I read the first 6 pages thru previews,so this felt like half a comic,stupid me.

I don't know,I honestly think a large number of comic readers read books ready to crucify them these days.I mean with all the insane rants I see,not so much here,it's as if they get some bloody wacked out high out of wasting money on things they buy just to ***** about.If you're going to open up books with that mentality,how can you even enjoy them anymore?

This isn't directed towards the whole Phradeus argument that's going on here,just a general observation.

 

[Dread]

I agree that JMS has been rebounding with THOR and then THE TWELVE. I mean, yeah, THOR sometimes seems slow, but at the same time, enough happens per issue that you don't feel cheated, and things are treated well. THE TWELVE establishes a lot for an intro issue; I've seen writers stretch 4 issues out of the stuff that happens in The Twelve #1.

JMS was on ASM for, what, like 6 years? Even his fans usually agreed he'd stayed on far too long.

 

[Phaedrus45]

I have no interest whatsoever in the BND/OMD stuff,but with Thor and The Twelve,JMS has been putting out some good stuff.

I'm in the rare few,yes there are a small number of us,that didn't mind Ultimates 3.1.Hulk #1 was a solid read,the only thing that ruined it was the fact that I read the first 6 pages thru previews,so this felt like half a comic,stupid me.

I don't know,I honestly think a large number of comic readers read books ready to crucify them these days.I mean with all the insane rants I see,not so much here,it's as if they get some bloody wacked out high out of wasting money on things they buy just to ***** about.If you're going to open up books with that mentality,how can you even enjoy them anymore?

This isn't directed towards the whole Phradeus argument that's going on here,just a general observation.

I totally understand. I really never took much time to critique a comic, until I started posting on the Bought/Thought threads. It kind of tunes your writing chops to say why you liked or didn't enjoy a book. For me, if I was on a budget like many people, you wouldn't see me pick up many of these books that I don't enjoy, like Onslaught Reborn. But, I'm a Comic-Addict and a Marvel completist. Titles I don't like, by DC, Image, Dark Horse, or another, I do drop like a hot potato.

 

[Aristotle]

Hold up, what's this about Bucky from Heroes Reborn being in 616 now?

 

[Aristotle]

Wolverine works when he is being the best there is at what he does.

I don't know, I guess when that's ALL there is to a story, that works, but I find that in general he works when he's just not written as Wolvegod. He's best when he's written as a vital, but not all-important, piece of a well-oiled ensemble machine.

I mean WOLVERINE ORIGINS hardly gets buzz at all anymore, and while it sells decently, hardly anyone discusses it. It reminds me of X-MEN UNLIMITED a year before cancellation.

Yeah, but X-Men Unlimited didn't suck.

 

[iloveclones]

Bucky from Heroes Reborn is in 616 now.

 

[Aristotle]

Bucky from Heroes Reborn is in 616 now.

Hokay, when the hell did that happen? (I'm not even going to ask why, from the company that's given me a record number of impossible whys in the last three years.)

 

[Dread]

The end of ONSLAUGHT REBORN, the wonky, late, and mostly terribly mini fro Liefield & Loeb, which is like a match made in hell.

Yet another example of why Joe Q believing that there is only Marvel and Ultimate Marvel without noting numbers like 616 and such even when his Handbooks do it (which he admits not reading), explains a lot about his decision process sometimes.

 

[iloveclones]

I don't like the 616 term either. I usually always refer to it as the MU. I just used it this one time to make a funny.

 

[Dread]

I don't like the 616 term either. I usually always refer to it as the MU. I just used it this one time to make a funny.

Well, blame Roma for that one (I think).

 

[iloveclones]

Haughty *****.

 

[Dread]

Haughty *****.

Yeah, I never cared for Roma at all. One of those characters who you see in a story and groan every time. Like Vulcan, or Scrappy Doo, or the Shi'ar, and so on.

 

[iloveclones]

Scrappy was an annoying little bastard wasn't he.

Roma is just another in a long line of Vhris Claremont being completely random and seeing what sticks.