Bought/Thought, July 1st, 2009 - There Will Be Spoilers

[The Batman]

Anybody read Utopia?It was kinda dull, IMO, and why do I have the feeling that Cyclops is going to be made to look like a severe idiot?

 

[Dread]

To be honest, a nutless monkey could run marvel, and it could still pull ahead of DC...i realized long ago that deep down, DC and the people who run it really DONT want to be number one, otherwise they wouldnt do half the things they do....

I'd say I agree, but I could just repost this bit:

It's [DC] Number Two. It has been Number Two for as long as I have been alive in sales and it will always be Number Two, because being Number Two is all it knows.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Captain America: Reborn #1

Sort of a "get noobs up to speed" issue in a lot of ways, which is always hard to judge from the perspective of someone who was already up to speed; leaning towards accessibility is definitely a good idea, and for this nominal miniseries to have much chance of standing on its own the exposition here was needed.

On the question of why this is a miniseries, I half-suspect that Marvel compared the sales of Fallen Son, a totally throwaway mini, and the main Captain America title, and concluded (not without justification) that the current audience tends to see "event" minis like this as more "important" (also, more clearly marked as a place to jump on).

Getting on from there, a pretty good start. The central mechanism for Steve's return, despite some people complaining about ripoffs of Lost or the current Batman stuff, has been included in the story since #23 way back in 2006, when the Skull acquired Doom's time machine. #42 saw the machine destroyed while setting up a further mystery around exactly what its purpose was. This fits together pretty well; doubtless we'll get more specific details. The one thing about this story that feels a bit anticlimactic is the way that the gun was discovered, though you could really have told the same story without it, from what I've seen; it seems to serve primarily to clue the heroes in to what's going on.

It was nice to see figures like Pym, Vision II and Osborn's crew take part in the story; gives the miniseries a more distinct feel from the main series (which albeit was definitely branching out a bit in the last few issues).

 

[Dread]

Like I said, Brubaker did lay in hints to this direction across his run. I just don't think it's been planned that long. The time machine was there, and the Skull obsession with Carter, at least when she had Steve's baby inside her. I just think at some point the end goal of what it was leading too changed, and Brubaker was skilled enough to leave enough vague that he could try to pull a reveal and almost fool you. I mean it works better than Bendis' "oh, I always planned SECRET INVASION". The problem is that it really doesn't work with CAPTAIN AMERICA #25 itself, or some of #26 or so on. Unless you want to believe that after, uh, mortally wounding Cap, they zapped him into time/space stasis and swapped the body in the morgue despite there being no opportunity shown in said story for that to happen.

Part of me thinks Brubaker had vowed to not rely on Cap's usual baloney Maguffin, the Cosmic Cube, which has been trucked out since Stan Lee's day to explain any impossible hogwash a writer wanted to do. Still, does a time platform work any better? Yes...and no. It certainly seems more important. But is it?

It also doesn't gell with any books that treated Cap as being dead, like THOR.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Like I said, Brubaker did lay in hints to this direction across his run. I just don't think it's been planned that long. The time machine was there, and the Skull obsession with Carter, at least when she had Steve's baby inside her. I just think at some point the end goal of what it was leading too changed, and Brubaker was skilled enough to leave enough vague that he could try to pull a reveal and almost fool you. I mean it works better than Bendis' "oh, I always planned SECRET INVASION". The problem is that it really doesn't work with CAPTAIN AMERICA #25 itself, or some of #26 or so on. Unless you want to believe that after, uh, mortally wounding Cap, they zapped him into time/space stasis and swapped the body in the morgue despite there being no opportunity shown in said story for that to happen.

Originally, Bucky wasn't supposed to be Cap at all; he was just going to run the book without a Captain America, which clearly indicates Steve was always supposed to come back.

While they haven't fully explained the process, at no point do they suggest that Steve didn't leave a body or anything (I'm wondering if the "Steve" floating around was sort of split off at that moment).

It also doesn't gell with any books that treated Cap as being dead, like THOR.

Brubaker was consulted on the specifics of that. Steve's spectre there quite clearly stated that he wasn't passed on, that he was somewhere strange.

 

[Dread]

Originally, Bucky wasn't supposed to be Cap at all; he was just going to run the book without a Captain America, which clearly indicates Steve was always supposed to come back.

While they haven't fully explained the process, at no point do they suggest that Steve didn't leave a body or anything (I'm wondering if the "Steve" floating around was sort of split off at that moment).

I hadn't heard that. My point stands that even if it wasn't exactly as intended, "New Cap" performed beyond expectations. Marvel didn't outright plan for Thor to sit on a shelf for 4 years, but it worked in THOR's favor, kicking up demand for it. "New Cap" was similar. Marvel didn't plan it exactly from the start, but it kicked up the CA franchise a lot and provided great new ore.

REBORN #1 stated that Steve's body was zapped by energy that kept it in stasis in space/time. They wouldn't make a big deal about Carter's gun if they weren't backtracking to deny that it wasn't real and Steve wasn't shot enough times in the gut/chest to die. Brubaker wouldn't start the issue telling us how all myths have lies in them unless he was about to pull some wool.

Brubaker was consulted on the specifics of that. Steve's spectre there quite clearly stated that he wasn't passed on, that he was somewhere strange.

Fair enough. Although most spirits might find Purgatory/the Afterlife in similar terms. But vague enough to fit no matter what works too.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Brubaker wouldn't start the issue telling us how all myths have lies in them unless he was about to pull some wool.

I don't see what you mean there. He's referring to the story that people initially believed (as well as the audience) not being true, hence, Sharon's revelations.

 

[Tarnish]

Omigod, He's ripping off Slaughterhouse Five???!?!? Has he no shame? The horror...THE HORROR!!!!!


so i guess it's all right to rip off a book, but not a tv show...

He may not have 'ripped off' (Your words) anything so much as been inspired. It's not atypical for writers of one genre to find worthy ideas in another.

Geoff Johns is calling "The Blackest Night" the "Empire Strikes Back" of the Green Lantern Corps IIRC. Yet I doubt we'll see Han running around (Guy WISHES he were that cool.. ) or too many lightsabers.

 

[iloveclones]

He may not have 'ripped off' (Your words) anything so much as been inspired. It's not atypical for writers of one genre to find worthy ideas in another.

Geoff Johns is calling "The Blackest Night" the "Empire Strikes Back" of the Green Lantern Corps IIRC. Yet I doubt we'll see Han running around (Guy WISHES he were that cool.. ) or too many lightsabers.

I was making fun of the people who were saying that he was ripping off Lost.

 

[Tarnish]

I was making fun of the people who were saying that he was ripping off Lost.

That would explain that wooshing sound that went right over my head

My apologies for misunderstanding.

 

[iloveclones]

That's allright. All my jokes seem to be on an Epic Fail level lately . Maybe I should use more smilies...

 

[Tarnish]

Heck, Dread, I like your reviews. They're rich, detailed, and keep me up to date even if/when I disagree with you.

However, I left Captain America (and most of Marvel) after Captain America #25. I knew Bru would do a good job with Bucky, because I liked what he'd been doing up till then and Bru's an amazing writer. Heck, I even got the Winter Soldier one shot and was hoping he'd get his own series as his own person. But Bucky wasn't the Captain America I wanted to read about, and Marvel just got too dark and depressing for my preference post Civil War anyway.

Different strokes and all that.

Just as I was leaving, Marvel was screaming to the rooftops that Cap was dead, and curious folks came in droves. They didn't, in my opinion, come to read about Bucky, they came to read about a hero's death. Bru's writing was so good, he hooked them and kept them. Frankly, I think Bru could have had Sam Wilson or Clint as Captain America and kept just as much interest from the newcomers. Still, I'm glad he used Bucky so well.


I kept out hope that they'd bring Steve back, and when they did, I might return. His 'death' lasted much longer than I thought it would. When I heard the movie was coming out for Cap, I was pretty sure it wouldn't be much longer. Cynical as that might have been , I think that's the big factor here.
"And the sidekick picks up the mantle of this guy many of you never knew before after his modern adventures" just doesn't have the same ring to it movie wise.

An interview from Bru indicating he meant to have Steve start coming back at issue #31 was very gratifying to me, but added more fuel to my ' Marvel is saving him for closer to the movie' theory.

However, Bru is the same guy who brought Bucky back so well folks now love him. I think Bru deserves the same benefit of the doubt as the guy who can bring Steve back equally well.

Frankly, I think there is room for both in the MU, and while there is a danger of Bucky drifting off to Limbo, there is also a chance that Marvel can be selling TWO successful heroes instead of just one by the end of this.

But Marvel needs Steve, not just because Steve is 'the living symbol' etc etc, but because, and no disrespect to Bucky, conflicted unsure characters are actually pretty common in Marvel. Unfortunately, dark nutcases seem to be going even more mainstream. Steve Rogers (Barring a CW type hatchet job by the likes of Millar or Jenkins) has a personality that's pretty rare comparatively and I think Marvel needs at least a few of those. They need their exemplar.

Furthermore, the idea that the Skull DIDN'T kill Steve, not for good, makes sense to me. As I said on another forum, We're talking about the same Red Skull that has always had psychological hang ups where Steve was concerned even to the point of it being self defeating. The Red Skull wielded the cube before, and instead of just snuffing Cap out, found himself thwarted by his own subconscious. He's aged Captain America so they could 'die together' during one of Gruenwald's greatest moments claiming they were two sides to the same coin, or immortals in eternal struggle and they go together or not at all... Leaving Cap to shout out "We are NOT Gods, we're just too old men, grappling in the dark".
Not that Skull believed him...
When it comes to Steve Rogers, the Skull took a one way ticket out of Sanity ville and never returned a LONG time ago.

IMO? Steve is one of the Red Skull's reasons for living.

The idea that 'just shooting him' wouldn't be enough fits the Skull to a tee. I'll buy that he might want to take over Steve's body, in some twisted "I must consume my enemy" sort of way, but just shooting him? It was one of the reasons I had trouble buying Cap being dead in the first place.

 

[bored]

I'm curious about "Cap Reborn", but I don't know how excited I feel, having read the first issue. Maybe it was seeing him drawn by Hitch again reminding me of the good volumes of "The Ultimates", which featured a rather different Cap than the one in this story, maybe it's that I like Bucky-Cap and wish they would let him hold the mantle himself for a bit longer, maybe I thought it was strange that Pym seems to have lost the shoes from his Wasp uniform. But will I keep reading? Yes.


Anyway, since I never wrote my reviews, on the other stuff I picked up this week:

Deadpool: Merc With a Mouth #1: There is another Deadpool ongoing. YES! He meets Z-Pool, meaning at least some continuation of the highly under-rated, soon-to-be-concluded "Marvel Zombies 4" (I'm also holding out for a Midnight Sons spinoff, but haven't heard anything about one yet). YES! This Bong Dazo guy's art. Sure. No, actually, I think it fits the tone rather well. This ups the silly to 11, which should really compliment the (slightly) darker tone of the Way-written title, which I still can't believe I actually like. Now if they could just work Blind Al into there.

War of Kings #5: So... Black Bolt was gonna sacrifice himself? How powerful a weapon must that thing Maximus built be? But at least it finally initiates the inevitable BB vs. Vulcan throwdown. The wait for that fight reminded me too much of "World War Hulk", when we all knew that the last issue would be Sentry vs. Hulk, and the rest of the story was just dragging out the wait. Admittedly, this has higher stakes, and the interim events are FAR superior. Gladiator's showdown with the Araki house was probably the best part, and I'm glad they let Rachel get the kill-shot on Black Cloak. Am left wondering where the whole thing with the Raptors is going, and will we see my beloved Guardians of the Galaxy in the final issue? I'm holding out that Rocket Raccoon will become the new ruler of the Shi'ar.

Green Lantern Corps #38: The Guardians done gone nuts. Guy Gardner reminds us again what a great character he really is. An asteroid poops out black rings. What else can I say that hasn't been said?

All in all, a good week. What's funny, though, was the best thing I got was not any of those. It wasn't about super-heroes. Hell, it wasn't technically even "new". DC/Vertigo has been doing this whole "After Watchmen... What's Next?" promotion by reissuing old issues of some great titles. This week, it was the first issue of one of my all-time favorite series, "Y: The Last Man". See, I didn't really discover it until the latter part of the run, but quickly fell in love with it. The story was so good, the characters well-written, and the whole odd world so easy to follow just by jumping in cold. Lawrence, KS isn't an easy place to find back issues, and I honestly hate getting TPBs, so I hadn't ever actually read the first issue of the series before, and it just works so well. It amazes me how well planned the story actually was, with some moments in this tying in strongly to the last year or so of the run. I really need to get over my hang-up and just get the old trades.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Invincible Iron Man #15

This arc has picked up a bit over the last two issues; more evidence, though, that it's overlong. Black Widow spends the whole issue refusing to help (or even listen to) Hill for no particular reason other than to kill some time. Tony and Pepper's reunion is well-done, and there's finally a mention of Happy, which seems almost to function as meta-commentary on how little he's been brought up since he died. Larroca's art is way better here than when the series started, though moustache-less Tony just doesn't look right.

Greek Street #1

Credit Vertigo; the $1 first issue thing is a great idea. Certainly made picking this up an easier decision; Marvel would do well to go that route instead of pricing the first issue of Exiles at 3.99 before dropping the title to 2.99 subsequently. That said, ehh on the issue itself. The premise of this series is Greek tragedies playing out in a modern setting. In the first issue, we get a hyper-quick rendition of Oedipus and Jocasta (Eddie and Jo) that seems to be going for tragic inevitability but seems almost slapstickishly unbelievable. A bunch of other plots are playing out around it. I'm a big Greek myth fan, but this didn't grab my interest.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

I did get out a kick out of Madam Masque's expression when she saw Tony and Pepper kissing. Like the psycho ***** switch in her head suddenly flipped on.

 

[Dread]

I did get out a kick out of Madam Masque's expression when she saw Tony and Pepper kissing. Like the psycho ***** switch in her head suddenly flipped on.

Indeed. It was just going to be a simple assassination until she saw Tony with his newest lady. Then the vindictive streak came on. Of course, had she just been professional, Tony wouldn't be able to eventually turn it around with strategy and/or luck like he likely will in issue #16, but that's how it works sometimes.

Heck, Dread, I like your reviews. They're rich, detailed, and keep me up to date even if/when I disagree with you.

However, I left Captain America (and most of Marvel) after Captain America #25. I knew Bru would do a good job with Bucky, because I liked what he'd been doing up till then and Bru's an amazing writer. Heck, I even got the Winter Soldier one shot and was hoping he'd get his own series as his own person. But Bucky wasn't the Captain America I wanted to read about, and Marvel just got too dark and depressing for my preference post Civil War anyway.

Different strokes and all that.

Just as I was leaving, Marvel was screaming to the rooftops that Cap was dead, and curious folks came in droves. They didn't, in my opinion, come to read about Bucky, they came to read about a hero's death. Bru's writing was so good, he hooked them and kept them. Frankly, I think Bru could have had Sam Wilson or Clint as Captain America and kept just as much interest from the newcomers. Still, I'm glad he used Bucky so well.


I kept out hope that they'd bring Steve back, and when they did, I might return. His 'death' lasted much longer than I thought it would. When I heard the movie was coming out for Cap, I was pretty sure it wouldn't be much longer. Cynical as that might have been , I think that's the big factor here.
"And the sidekick picks up the mantle of this guy many of you never knew before after his modern adventures" just doesn't have the same ring to it movie wise.

An interview from Bru indicating he meant to have Steve start coming back at issue #31 was very gratifying to me, but added more fuel to my ' Marvel is saving him for closer to the movie' theory.

However, Bru is the same guy who brought Bucky back so well folks now love him. I think Bru deserves the same benefit of the doubt as the guy who can bring Steve back equally well.

Frankly, I think there is room for both in the MU, and while there is a danger of Bucky drifting off to Limbo, there is also a chance that Marvel can be selling TWO successful heroes instead of just one by the end of this.

But Marvel needs Steve, not just because Steve is 'the living symbol' etc etc, but because, and no disrespect to Bucky, conflicted unsure characters are actually pretty common in Marvel. Unfortunately, dark nutcases seem to be going even more mainstream. Steve Rogers (Barring a CW type hatchet job by the likes of Millar or Jenkins) has a personality that's pretty rare comparatively and I think Marvel needs at least a few of those. They need their exemplar.

Furthermore, the idea that the Skull DIDN'T kill Steve, not for good, makes sense to me. As I said on another forum, We're talking about the same Red Skull that has always had psychological hang ups where Steve was concerned even to the point of it being self defeating. The Red Skull wielded the cube before, and instead of just snuffing Cap out, found himself thwarted by his own subconscious. He's aged Captain America so they could 'die together' during one of Gruenwald's greatest moments claiming they were two sides to the same coin, or immortals in eternal struggle and they go together or not at all... Leaving Cap to shout out "We are NOT Gods, we're just too old men, grappling in the dark".
Not that Skull believed him...
When it comes to Steve Rogers, the Skull took a one way ticket out of Sanity ville and never returned a LONG time ago.

IMO? Steve is one of the Red Skull's reasons for living.

The idea that 'just shooting him' wouldn't be enough fits the Skull to a tee. I'll buy that he might want to take over Steve's body, in some twisted "I must consume my enemy" sort of way, but just shooting him? It was one of the reasons I had trouble buying Cap being dead in the first place.

Long time no see, Tarnish.

The only "established" hero who tried to become Captain America was the Punisher, and he quickly found it was too big for him. I figure Clint and Sam respected the mantle too much and knew Steve too personally to try to take it on. Plus, Clint's into wearing lady costumes these days as Ronin.

The gist I got for the whole thing was that Red Skull was going to use the time platform to grow Steve's kid to full age, or at least young adulthood, for which he needed Carter for. Sin of course screwed that up and then Carter finished the job. Now of course it's the Rogers Revival Trinket.

In some ways Red Skull has the same problem as Steve, only in the reverse direction; what is his motive, and what does he want? It's not just about reviving the Nazi Party anymore, he's said he's "beyond fascism". So what is it? Anarky? Power? More often than not it comes off as "evil for evil's sake" and only solid execution from Brubaker has kept it from seeming too mundane. I never understood villains who "can't" kill the hero for whatever reason. If they don't ever intend to just kill the hero if they ever got a chance, then what is the point of battling them? That sort of thing started to annoy me about Kang. He loves to fight the Avengers "for sport" even though he rarely needs to since he already rules the 40th Century, but he seems to never want to kill them, and always loses. It is just shy of masochism. I find myself seeing villains who "just can't" bring themselves to finish the good guys if given the chance as losers, and all of their battles as predictable. There's always insanity as a dandy motive, but one doesn't want to overplay it, either.

I mean I know Steve Rogers is a big fundamental Marvel character, one could argue akin to a Superman or Batman in terms of the length of time he has been around. But the status quo since his death was just so much more interesting. You had Barnes as a new Cap, struggling to fulfill the shoes, a man with a connected past to Steve's with similar enemies, but a past all his own with actual skeletons in it. Steve was too good a man to ever have a skeleton in his past. You had Grand Director filling that void as well, wandering around half-crazed with people thinking he is Steve. And not for nothing, Black Widow is cooler to date than Carter to me.

Maybe my problem, while we are being honest, was I was never a big Captain America fan. He was cool in team books, where he can contrast with other characters and inspire them. But I never was especially interested in his solo title. After two years I cracked on the Brubaker run and he made it work. Looking back, I think he relied on bringing Barnes back to get around some of the limitations to writing a Rogers story, by doing the often teased subplot for real, since the start. The 25 issues after the death, though, were riveting. Here was a New Cap I could relate to more. Steve is really the sort of figure few can relate to, because he is TOO perfect. He's someone you aspire to, or look up to, and that's fun for a time, but can be a double edged sword, especially after some 70 years of circulation. I am not saying I would want someone to INSERT flaws or dark secrets into Steve's life; that doesn't work for him. That's what made Ultimate Rogers suck, because Millar did that and missed half the point to Steve. That's like revealing Clark Kent almost date raped someone in Smallville. Barnes, though, has been dusted off from a 60's Stan Lee retcon. He's relatively fresh ground. He has the same shared 40's past with Rogers, and has many of the same enemies and allies, but was like all of us, trying to live up some an idealized man. There's more to relate to there. Least for me.

Objectively it couldn't last forever. But my heart wishes it had. Yeah, it wasn't fair that Steve "died" that way, but death is rarely fair. It was a death that left the book in a more interesting place, instead of the opposite.

My problem isn't simply the means and what I am asked to swallow. I am asked to swallow that an entire planet has been fooled with some fake gun and fake blood and some body swap or something, that Skull and Zola are better than Mephisto. It isn't simply that using the Cosmic Cube as the Maguffin for the 500th time might have actually been more honest and more simple than a frickin' Time Machine or an Astral Chronal Ghost or whatever it is. It is that the future of the comic doesn't look as interesting with Steve back, and Barnes' long road ahead looks cut short. The reality is that Brubaker written comics starring non-Cap Bucky haven't sold well. YOUNG AVENGERS PRESENTS #1 was hardly selling out. None of those other one-shots saw a second print. Brubaker couldn't keep IMMORTAL IRON FIST above 30k for long. The belief that Barnes could sell a book without it being CAPTAIN AMERICA is at best an optimistic delusion. And while, yes, there will be some good-will with the mission to "rebirth" Cap, and the immediate story afterward, what then? Barnes is demoted back to sidekick? I don't think that will work. Limbo? And then what does Steve do? The same things he was doing back in CAPTAIN AMERICA #1 (circa 2004).

Usually when a character has to resort to retiring, dying, being fired, or threatening to all either of the three, that is the sign of a rut at least. Now Cap isn't the only character, or last, to face this problem. But he was, until now, one of the few besides Flash to handle a transfer of power so successfully.

I honestly wish there was a place where Steve and Barnes could either both be Cap or both could be equals on the stage. But that's not possible. Steve will always eclipse him. It's like how it is okay for Dick Grayson to be Batman occasionally (so long as DC has winked and assured everyone it won't last), but he could NEVER be of equal stature in his own identity of Nightwing in DC. The execs wouldn't allow it. And the shame of it is that it has stifled Grayson as a character for, oh, the last 15 years at least. The path of Barnes offered a path for CAPTAIN AMERICA that merged new innovative storytelling and opportunities with the sort of themes that we connect with Captain America. But with Steve? At best, it is 500% harder to do that. Especially after such a long run. What I think kept CA's sales so high since 2007 wasn't Barnes alone; I think it was hype, quality, and the sense for two years that Marvel may have actually meant what they said, did something big and didn't just reset it in like 6-12 months like unmaskings or a Magneto death or whatever. It remains to be seen how CAPTAIN AMERICA will fare now that it's known that, whoops, just kidding about that Rogers death thing. He's back with a mullet now.

Some have critically dismissed REBORN #1 as crap and I've ranted a lot but I don't think it is crap. Parts of it don't work and I don't think the end goal has as innovative a road ahead, but I like everything else. But part of me thinks that Steve Rogers has reached the point of Superman or Optimus Prime. His most notable recent storyline plot was dying, and then after that returning, the rest is just middling. Maybe if you play it like a Bond film, focus on the execution and not the character as much, and it works. For so long.

Brubaker could even have Steve live but retire, go, "You be Cap for a while, Barnes, me and Carter need some alone time", and that won't matter. That'll just delay it until Brubaker leaves. That'll just kick the can down the road. My thing is, Marvel removed the can and changed it up, even if by accident, and should have ran that course. It's all moot now, though.

The irony, is that by the time Cap's movie is out in 2012, by then he may be getting dusty again and need another high profile switch up like death or a new suit or something.

 

[topdog1]

But Marvel needs Steve, not just because Steve is 'the living symbol' etc etc, but because, and no disrespect to Bucky, conflicted unsure characters are actually pretty common in Marvel. Unfortunately, dark nutcases seem to be going even more mainstream. Steve Rogers (Barring a CW type hatchet job by the likes of Millar or Jenkins) has a personality that's pretty rare comparatively and I think Marvel needs at least a few of those. They need their exemplar.

I couldn't agree more. Cap always had angst but his high moral character set his appeal and set him apart. I'm glad the real Cap will be back soon.

BTW- Cap's movie is out in 2011 isn't it?

It seems the Old Man Logan storyline from Wolverine is immediately out of continuity. Red Skull killed BuckyCap over there. I loved that last issue anyway.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I doubt Old Man Logan was ever meant to be in continuity, that was just Millar being Millar

 

[roach]

I will have to disagree. The Marvel Universe needs Steve Rogers as Captain America. It is too dark a place and needs a hero who always does the right thing. He isnt supposed to be relatable he is supposed to be a hero you look up to. The one who inspires other heroes. No one is inspiring any of Marvel's characters right now. Relatability is a two edged sword as a lot of stupid moves in the Spider-man books are made in the name of relatability. Yes Marvel lacks legacy character but I dont think legacy characters work. Not in the grand scheme of things. For every Dick Grayson or Wally West that assumes the mantle of their former mentor there will be a writer who wants to write about Hal Jordan or Barry Allen. It is why so many people know that as soon as Bru leaves Cap Rogers would be back and I think thats why Bru had a story to bring him back. I think the idea that Rogers is frozen in time is rather stupid. I think a more believable story would have been a Roger clone being killed and that Rogers is a captive of the Skull who makes him watch as he corrupts his country with him out of the way. This in part would lead into a reason Marvel is darker and Osborne is in power...all orchestrated by the Skull.

 

[roach]

X-men Forever 1 and 2

Yes I do realize that I am opening myself to countless flames because Im reading a Claremont book but hey I can take it...i think. Anyway onto the backstory. This story takes place in the 161 universe. Everything that happened before is as it was but Xmen #3 is the divirging point...in the same way that in the new Star Trek movie everything is different after the Romulans attack George Kirk's ship. So with that lets jump in.
Issue one starts with Jean fantasizing about Logan. They have always had an attraction and didnt seem to me to be out of character. We find that the X-men are on a mission to find Fabian Cortez. He was the mastermind behind the death of Magneto and Nick Fury approaches the Xmen to apprehend Cortez for him. The team is Scott and Jean who arent married. Storm, Rogue, Shadowcat and Nightcrawler who happen to be at the mansion at the time the mission was put together on loan from Excalibur, Gambit who is still an unknown as at this time his name isnt yet revealed to the team. Infact the name he has in this book Remy Picard has been stated to be an alias and Wolverine. As the Blackbird flies thru the sky its attacked and the Xmen evacuate and get to the ground. There they are met by Cortez who admits he didnt attack the team but he is gonna kill them. He "juices" Cyclops up and uses his super optic blast to take out the team. Cortez is holding is home against the team. He tosses Rogue into Storm and the two are knocked out. Rogue comes thru and having absorbed a bit of Storm's psyche she notices something different and wierd about it. Cortez then attackes Wolverine and "juices" him. Kitty attempts to break Logan free and their arms merge Logan and Kitty. That will be a major plot point later. He then grabs Jean and the Phoenix bird manifests which freaks Cortez out and he runs and gets ambushed by Gambit and Nightcrawler. Logan wants to kill Cortez but Scott stops him which I find refreshing over the murderous Scott with his secret SS in X-Force. Rogue is antsy around Storm over what she absorbed from her mind and the team goes home. Once home Fury breaks the bad news to the team that Since Magneto nuked the world in Xmen 1-3 that everyone is afraid of mutants now more than ever and the X-men are now going to get an official government overseer and its Nick Fury. Logan doesnt like this and walks off. Scott, Jean, Xavier and Nick Fury continue to talk abut the situation however Jean is mindlinked with Logan who is doing a personal mission and is attacked. End of issue one

Issue 2
Cops see strange lights in Central Park and come across and adamantium skeleton with adamantium claws..one broken on the right hand. Back at the mansion everyone wakes up from the psychic backlash that Jean produced when Logan died. Storm arrives as she wasnt at the mansion. Interesting. Jean is still catatonic and they rush her to the infirmary. Gabe Jones Jr contacts Fury and tells him that Wolverine is dead. In this universe Logan cant heal from having his flesh incinerated from his skeleton. Storm goes to jumpstart the mansions generators and she is attacked by Sabretooth. The rest of the team jumps in and gets handled by Sabretooth. Storm in a rather bloodthirsty move shoots lightining at Sabretooth's eyes and burns them out.
End issue 2

I love this series as it has a very classic feel and presents the Xmen before all the excess baggage was added to them....no Cat Beast, No evil Xavier, No blood thirsty Scott, No organic claws Logan...though that shouldnt matter as Logan's death is very real in this universe. No third Summers brother. No M day. No Emma Frost. No Xorn or Xorn as Magneto or Magneto as Xorn. Classic X-men acting as X-men should.

 

[Tarnish]

Well, Dread, a lot of those who ARE fans of Steve truly resented the send off/death he got. Oh, the problem wasn't on Bru's side, though the Skull IS insane and it was hard to buy he'd just want Cap shot, but the way Steve was portrayed in Civil War and Civil War: Frontline . Millar tried to import some of the more thuggish aspects of Ultimate Cap and had 'Plot Induced Stupidity' running all over Steve (To be fair, he did that to a lot of characters, but Steve dying meant it would be harder to correct), and Jenkins' utterly ******ed CW:FW 11 where Cap lets Sally "This is a reporter?" Floyd run all over him is some of the most out of character drivel I'd ever had the displeasure to glance at.

Seriously, only Brubaker and JMS seemed to be getting Cap right at all during that time imo.

Regardless, we see Steve reduced to an idiotic thug (Compared to the usual leader he is) , somehow lose his power of eloquence, the entire population of the Marvel Universe seems to forget the numerous times he and the Avengers saved the world. He's not just 'lost' , he's chained, shamed...and frankly the ONLY Thing that makes the Skull having Cap shot plausible is that Steve really is at the low point.

But this is not the death a hero deserves, or at least a lot of us thought. It's not just a matter of it not being fair, it was almost a betrayal of the character to leave it there sans closure.

Yeah, when Bru leaves there IS a danger of Bucky going to limbo. Then again, Dick Grayson still has his fans. Still, even if Bucky were Cap when Bru left, what would keep another writer from just returning Steve then and sending Bucky into limbo anyway? I think that's what would have happened.

I'd much rather it be Bru who brings Steve back and handles the transition this time around as well than some other writer who might not respect things for both characters.

I could see this being handled SO much worse by someone else, though I know that's small comfort to you.



All imo mind.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I still love Steve's death itself, regardless of how he got there. Civil War, Frontline, etc. is all just other stuff that Brubaker picked up on and fed into his own story. But the death of Captain America in such a simple, poignant way, protecting one of his would-be jailers despite the fact that his country and its people had turned on him, was so perfect for him. It's one of those moments I'll always remember with Cap, like his return in the Silver Age and his futile stand against Thanos in The Infinity Gauntlet.