Bought/Thought June 4th, 2008

[Doc Destruction]

On you go then explain your point.

Explain what a deus ex machina is and how fury in this story is one.


Your habit of just insisting loudly you're right is tiresome, try forming an argument.

I'M TIRESOME? Try looking in a mirror sometime. Good God, you're one of the more irritating posters on the Hype.

Look, just because Bendis and Marvel went out of their way to telegraph the Deus Ex Machina, doesn't make it less of one. It just means they can't keep a plot point a secret to save their lives.

Fury drops in out of nowhere to save the day. Right after all the heroes get summarily kicked around in true Bendis fashion. Just like Shield in the first NA arc with the Avengers all being held captive. He does this all the time. Now, you wanna really shock us? Have Fury drop in to save the day and get KILLED. THAT would be impressive writing, or at the very least, DIFFERENT.

I'm glad you love your precious Marvel comics, but don't let it blind you to talentless writing. They have FAR better writers they should be using for their flagship books.

 

[Doc Destruction]

And frankly, I think you guys are so nitpicky on the Deus Ex Machina thing simply because it's Bendis. I doubt you could pick up an issue of Spider-Man back in the day where he didn't come up with some widget to save the day. Or how about [cue music] The Ultimate Nullifier [/cue music] ?

I have no doubt that the conclusion to SI will be unsatisfying. But in the meantime, chill out and enjoy the first two acts.

Honestly, it wouldn't be such a problem if he didn't write the same exact plotline every time.

He has GREAT concepts. Just once though, I'd like to see a hero written by him WIN A FIGHT. Like, pull your self up by the bootstraps, gather your strength and finish the job on your own kind of stuff. This out of left field stuff to save the nine millionth fallen hero stuff is getting old.

 

[iloveclones]

I've always said that Marvel would be better off if they just took his ideas and let someone else run with them. But he is what he is. I can live with it.

 

[Doc Destruction]

I've always said that Marvel would be better off if they just took his ideas and let someone else run with them.

And you know what? THAT would be awesome. He's the George Lucas of comics

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Season 8 #15
Well. Renee's dead. That is quite possibly my least favorite death in the entire Buffyverse. I hate it. We barely even got to know Renee. Think about it like this: if this comic was a TV show, then every 4-part arc would be an individual episode (and sure enough, it takes just as long to read 4 issues as it does to watch an episode). That means Renee died somewhere within the first 5 or so episodes.

I feel your pain, man. I really took a liking to Renee. We should get drunk and remember how great she was.

 

[gildea]

I'M TIRESOME? Try looking in a mirror sometime. Good God, you're one of the more irritating posters on the Hype.

Look, just because Bendis and Marvel went out of their way to telegraph the Deus Ex Machina, doesn't make it less of one. It just means they can't keep a plot point a secret to save their lives.

Fury drops in out of nowhere to save the day. Right after all the heroes get summarily kicked around in true Bendis fashion. Just like Shield in the first NA arc with the Avengers all being held captive. He does this all the time. Now, you wanna really shock us? Have Fury drop in to save the day and get KILLED. THAT would be impressive writing, or at the very least, DIFFERENT.

I'm glad you love your precious Marvel comics, but don't let it blind you to talentless writing. They have FAR better writers they should be using for their flagship books.

Firstly a deus ex machina relates to something suddenly and improbably appearing to resolve the issue.

Fury has appeared it's not sudden as we know it was coming and have even seen the planning stages.
It's not improbable as it's IN CHARACTER.
And as it's in the middle of the story I think it's unlikely to resolve the issue (though i'm sure it's possible we could get just 3 issues of characters chatting in epilogue)

This appearance of fury fails at all 3 points of a deus ex machina.


This has nothing to do with marvel comics, it's to do with poor criticism. (secret invasion has been decent but not great). And I do agree that bendis does rely heavily on the deus ex machina concept, but that doesn't make fury one in this instance.

 

[Hans]

From a literary standpoint, gildea is right. Fury's appearance in this issue is NOT a deus ex machina. It shouldn't even be a debate, really.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Well, I'm sorry you're both incorrect, but think what you will.

"The phrase describes an artificial, or improbable, character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot (such as an angel suddenly appearing to solve problems)."

Sounds pretty close to me. Doesn't HAVE to be at the end for one thing.

It might be a weak DEM in this case, but Bendis uses the very same plot device all the time. About as badly as using flashback, crappy thought balloons and mischaracterization.

 

[Hans]

Um, no. By definition, a deus ex machina is "a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty." Now, knowing that Fury's been planning this for months and knowing that resolving these types of conflicts is what Fury does, it cannot be labeled a deus ex machina.

 

[Doc Destruction]

His appearance right then and there, at that moment, when everyone is defeated is fully within the realm of the term.

If he had shown up at the START of the fight, or in the middle, you might have something, but no.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I wouldn't say Fury definitively isn't a deus ex machina, but it's a bit early to call him one since he hasn't, y'know, done anything yet. Daisy blew up a Skrull and Fury said a couple words. That's about it.

 

[gildea]

resolve a situation or untangle a plot

fury has just appeared.

what has been resolved/untangled?

 

[Doc Destruction]

I wouldn't say Fury definitively isn't a deus ex machina, but it's a bit early to call him one since he hasn't, y'know, done anything yet. Daisy blew up a Skrull and Fury said a couple words. That's about it.

Knowing what you know about Bendis, who wants to take the bet that Fury and his group don't kick all the Skrulls asses in the very next scene?

 

[gildea]

Knowing what you know about Bendis, who wants to take the bet that Fury and his group don't kick all the Skrulls asses in the very next scene?

the 3 more issues in the series......

 

[Doc Destruction]

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE AT THE END OF THE STORY.

Jesus, dude...seriously. THINK FOR A MINUTE before you post. The end of the scene COUNTS.

 

[Hans]

His appearance right then and there, at that moment, when everyone is defeated is fully within the realm of the term.

If he had shown up at the START of the fight, or in the middle, you might have something, but no.

I'm not following you. You're saying that because he showed up at the END of the battle, that makes him a deus ex machina? Do you even know what a deus ex machina is? I posted the definition, if you need to read it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Knowing what you know about Bendis, who wants to take the bet that Fury and his group don't kick all the Skrulls asses in the very next scene?

I wouldn't rule it out, but that's still the next issue. I still think it's premature to call Fury's new Commandos a deus ex machina. If anything, the fact that Thor and Bucky are showing up next issue and the issue after that features a cover of the "new/old" big three of Thor, (an) Iron Man, and Bucky-Cap suggests to me that Thor and Bucky may be Bendis' preferred deus ex machina at this point. Maybe they'll work off a plan Fury devises or something, since Fury's got all the pieces to the puzzle.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Good God, I give up. I studied literature for YEARS. I'm sorry you're too ignorant to understand the concept. Eat up another bowful of bad writing and keep smiling blankly.

DAMN I hate ignorance.

 

[gildea]

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE AT THE END OF THE STORY.

Jesus, dude...seriously. THINK FOR A MINUTE before you post. The end of the scene COUNTS.

No it does.

The plot/situation of comic is skrulls invading, your OWN DEFINITION claims it needs to resolve the plot/situation. Even if the fight is won at the end of this scene it won't resolve the plot/situation.

You're ignoring that fury hasn't suddenly appeared also (again from your OWN DEFINITION).

I also notice your still ignoring the probability of fury appearing also.

 

[Doc Destruction]

I wouldn't rule it out, but that's still the next issue. I still think it's premature to call Fury's new Commandos a deus ex machina. If anything, the fact that Thor and Bucky are showing up next issue and the issue after that features a cover of the "new/old" big three of Thor, (an) Iron Man, and Bucky-Cap suggests to me that Thor and Bucky may be Bendis' preferred deus ex machina at this point. Maybe they'll work off a plan Fury devises or something, since Fury's got all the pieces to the puzzle.

Maybe he'll use multiple DEM's, that wouldn't surprise me either, sadly.

 

[gildea]

Good God, I give up. I studied literature for YEARS. I'm sorry you're too ignorant to understand the concept. Eat up another bowful of bad writing and keep smiling blankly.

DAMN I hate ignorance.

I'm guessing you studied irony.....

But given that i've given you a point by point argument and you've only latched on to one part which all observers point out doesn't actually fit you're the only one who doesn't understand things here...

 

[Hans]

Good God, I give up. I studied literature for YEARS. I'm sorry you're too ignorant to understand the concept. Eat up another bowful of bad writing and keep smiling blankly.

DAMN I hate ignorance.

What is going on? I never said I liked the story, and frankly it wouldn't matter if I did or didn't. And regardless of how much literature you THINK you've studied, you clearly need to go back and take a few more classes. There is nothing SUDDEN about Fury's introduction because we know this has been coming. Ending an issue of a comic book with a cliffhanger does not a deus ex machina make. Also, there's nothing contrived about Fury's resolution of the problem because there's been NO resolution.

 

[Doc Destruction]

I really wish I cared enough to continue the conversation. I'll just wait until it's over and I'm right to go on.

 

[gildea]

I really wish I cared enough to continue the conversation. I'll just wait until it's over and I'm right to go on.

Given your definition of right (fury winning that fight) is wrong for what we're talking about, it's largely irrelevant.

 

[StreetWarrior]

So...uh... some comics came out the other day...