Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[Havok83]

When you look at him from the buffy universe then yes, angel is unique.
But i never liked brooding characters like him, and nowadays with all the vampire shows etc....he comes of as the prototype vampire, so it takes away some of this unique traits he had as the show first aired.

But does the good he did outweight the bad he does the moment he loses his soul?
It doesnt matter to him the moment this happens, his path of redemption and all this is ultimately useless when he doesnt want to change with every part of him.

But to compare current vampire images in the media such as Twilight, Vampire Diaries, etc... is irrelevant to Buffy bc not only did that not exist when Buffy was on the air, it has absolutely no bearing to how vampires are treated within that universe.

As far as the bad that the characters saw as Angelus on the show, the worst he did was kill Jenny and I would say all the good he's done on the show outweighs that. He saved TONS of lives over the course of 8 seasons. As for the stuff he did prior to getting a soul, well again that's what he was trying to make up for. He probably will never, but didn't stop him from trying and striving to be a better person was what made him one. He wasn't all talk. His actions backed up who he was

Spoiler

That is the difference between him and spike, Spike wanted to change after he fell in love with buffy.
With or without soul, Spike seeked redemption.
He didnt go back to the sick and evil vampire he once was, for him the soul is ultimatley a gift, while for angel its really just a curse.
Its just my opinion however, i know the whole spike or angel thing is still very much alive under the fans.

[BLACKOUT]We never saw Spike lose a soul so you cant compare the situation and say how he would act without it. He'd likely end up just like Angelus bc at his core, he's a vamp and they are programmed to be evil. The closest we got to knowing what he'd be like without the barriers was was a point in season 6 where he thought his chip had stopped working bc he could hit Buffy and he tried to attack a woman, only to find out that wasn't the case. He didn't love Buffy until after he got his soul back. He had a sick and destructive obsession with her prior to that[/BLACKOUT]

What I don't get is dimissing Angel and his contributions bc he had a soul to put him on the path to redemption, yet dismiss the fact that Spike had to have a microchip in order to do the same. We had 3 straight seasons of him no longer acting bad and unwillingly helping the Scoobies only bc he had a chip in his head that prevented him from doing harm. Without that chip, he'd have been as destructive as before and they'd have killed him. The only reason he was able to walk around was bc they didn't view him as a threat. Its not like he woke up one morning and decided he wanted to be a better vamp. He had no choice in order to survive

 

[Mani-Man]

But to compare current vampire images in the media such as Twilight, Vampire Diaries, etc... is irrelevant to Buffy bc not only did that not exist when Buffy was on the air, it has absolutely no bearing to how vampires are treated within that universe.

As far as the bad that the characters saw as Angelus on the show, the worst he did was kill Jenny and I would say all the good he's done on the show outweighs that. He saved TONS of lives over the course of 8 seasons. As for the stuff he did prior to getting a soul, well again that's what he was trying to make up for. He probably will never, but didn't stop him from trying and striving to be a better person was what made him one. He wasn't all talk. His actions backed up who he was

Yes, comparing him to any other vampire universe is not relevant for the buffy universe, but to me, such a dark and brooding vampire is not my kind of character i like.

I understand that he saved many people and tries to do good.
But the fact remains that this all does not matter to him once he loses his soul.
Can he find redemption when one part of him still wants to kill and torture?
Nothing holds him back when he loses his soul, we know that vampires can change, they are not bound to be evil, if he needs a "curse" to stay on this path, can he really be a good man?


[BLACKOUT]We never saw Spike lose a soul so you cant compare the situation and say how he would act without it. He'd likely end up just like Angelus bc at his core, he's a vamp and they are programmed to be evil. The closest we got to knowing what he'd be like without the barriers was was a point in season 6 where he thought his chip had stopped working bc he could hit Buffy and he tried to attack a woman, only to find out that wasn't the case. He didn't love Buffy until after he got his soul back. He had a sick and destructive obsession with her prior to that[/BLACKOUT]

Spoiler

I believe that he gave drusilla his soul in the comics, it didnt change him.
Yes, spikes situation was a different one, the chip prevented him from attacking humans, but there would have been many ways to hurt people.
Spike was a different character to begin with, because william was a different man.
The Chip gave him time to think and find a part of him that was never really gone, his humanity so to speak.
Maybe Angel could have turned out the same with a chip and without a soul, but we dont know.

What I don't get is dimissing Angel and his contributions bc he had a soul to put him on the path to redemption, yet dismiss the fact that Spike had to have a microchip in order to do the same. We had 3 straight seasons of him no longer acting bad and unwillingly helping the Scoobies only bc he had a chip in his head that prevented him from doing harm. Without that chip, he'd have been as destructive as before and they'd have killed him. The only reason he was able to walk around was bc they didn't view him as a threat. Its not like he woke up one morning and decided he wanted to be a better vamp. He had no choice in order to survive

This is one of the most discussed things when it came to spike.
He could have found ways to hurt people, i guess it wouldnt have made much fun for him, because he liked to hurt people himself...but there would have been ways.
Like i said, Spike was always a different vampire, drusilla said it herself.
With the chip, he was able to really find a little part of himself.

 

[DA_Champion]

How do you guys think the show handled Spike's attempted rape of Buffy?

Satisfactory?

 

[Great Mind(s)]

Dont forget Spike helped Buffy a few times before he even got the chip. If Angelus had a chip he'd probably find a way to unleash another Acathlya type thing to kill everyone. Or detonate a nuke.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Angel is a better man than Spike specifically because his depravity ran deeper. I never saw it as so cut-and-dried as having a soul makes a person good and not having one makes a person evil. Angel mentions on numerous occasions that everything about Angelus is still a part of him as Angel; his soul just makes him feel guilt and remorse and want to change. He feels the weight of how terrible he is at his core and genuinely wants to atone and be a better person. Without the soul, he's incapable of feeling those things, so he stops resisting his baser urges and the Angelus persona reasserts itself.

Spike, on the other hand, with or without a soul, doesn't give a f***. He was crazy for a bit, then a wuss for a bit, but ultimately he returned to exactly the same man he was before getting his soul, only he's less likely to kill decent people now. Spike seemed more capable of that particular brand of obsessive, twisted 'love' that some vampires can manage than Angelus, but so what? He didn't want to change. He got a chip in his head that forced him to change, then he directed that obsessive, screwy love toward Buffy. Getting a soul was basically just revenge for her rejection, just as becoming a vampire was revenge for Cecily's rejection and trying to get back at Buffy was revenge for Drusilla's rejection. Spike's fun on the surface, but at his core he's still that pathetic, easily wounded dope he was as a human. But if he lost his soul, he'd probably wind up killing people again, just as Angel would. The process might be a slower slide toward that, since he'd still desperately crave Buffy's approval due to his infatuation with her and he knows she'd frown on it, but the guy didn't cut a bloody swath through Europe for a century because he was bored. He loves killing, both with and without a soul; the soul, the chip, and his infatuation with Buffy were the only things that stopped him from hurting innocents. Of those three, the last is by far the weakest, as his attempted rape of Buffy shows.

 

[Mani-Man]

Angel is a better man than Spike specifically because his depravity ran deeper. I never saw it as so cut-and-dried as having a soul makes a person good and not having one makes a person evil. Angel mentions on numerous occasions that everything about Angelus is still a part of him as Angel; his soul just makes him feel guilt and remorse and want to change. He feels the weight of how terrible he is at his core and genuinely wants to atone and be a better person. Without the soul, he's incapable of feeling those things, so he stops resisting his baser urges and the Angelus persona reasserts itself.

That is the difference between angel and spike.
He dwells in the past, he fears the person he is without the soul.
Angel wants to be better then he was,,,,as long as he has a soul.
Spike feels the same things, but Spike accepted what he was, he does not want to go back to be the one he was....soul or not.
Spike doesnt see himself as william or spike, he sees that he is one and the same.
He doesnt look for redemption or a clap on the back, he wants to be a better man and fight evil.

Spike, on the other hand, with or without a soul, doesn't give a f***. He was crazy for a bit, then a wuss for a bit, but ultimately he returned to exactly the same man he was before getting his soul, only he's less likely to kill decent people now. Spike seemed more capable of that particular brand of obsessive, twisted 'love' that some vampires can manage than Angelus, but so what? He didn't want to change. He got a chip in his head that forced him to change, then he directed that obsessive, screwy love toward Buffy. Getting a soul was basically just revenge for her rejection, just as becoming a vampire was revenge for Cecily's rejection and trying to get back at Buffy was revenge for Drusilla's rejection. Spike's fun on the surface, but at his core he's still that pathetic, easily wounded dope he was as a human. But if he lost his soul, he'd probably wind up killing people again, just as Angel would. The process might be a slower slide toward that, since he'd still desperately crave Buffy's approval due to his infatuation with her and he knows she'd frown on it, but the guy didn't cut a bloody swath through Europe for a century because he was bored. He loves killing, both with and without a soul; the soul, the chip, and his infatuation with Buffy were the only things that stopped him from hurting innocents. Of those three, the last is by far the weakest, as his attempted rape of Buffy shows.

The chip was probably the first time since he became a vampire, that gave spike the chance to look at himself and were he was going.
Before he had Drusilla,Darla and Angel around him......this is not very healthy.
With the chip, he neede to think about what he wants to do and who he wants to be.
Like i said, in the comics, he gave his soul to Drusilla to heal her from her insainty or so....yet he still fought for the good.
Thats because he accepts who he is and changed with his whole beeing.
The soul didnt matter, because its just one part of Spike.
Maybe it all has to do with love, the Man is driven by love.
After Cecil and Drusilla, how should he have known what love really is?
It was not healthy with both of them, this was clear in season 6.
Season 7 showed really good what makes Spike so much better then angel in my opinion.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, to each his own.

Here's an interesting question I've been thinking about in light of the current arc in Buffy season 10: What's the deal with Dracula? He's clearly not like other vampires. He seems to genuinely care about Xander. I wonder if maybe he has a soul and just keeps it to himself, or if maybe he used magic to somehow broaden his own horizons beyond just wanting to feed and murder people.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

Well did Darla care about Lindsey? She could have killed him after their little affair but she just took her things and left.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

No, I don't think Darla cared about Lindsey. Angelus learned a lot of his tricks from Darla; she enjoyed mind games too. She probably figured she'd already broken Lindsey so thoroughly by denying him her love that it'd be more amusing to let him live and suffer than just kill him. Sort of like how Angelus drove Drusilla crazy then turned her so she'd be tormented literally forever rather than just killing her. For the particularly depraved vampires, death isn't the only option.

 

[Mani-Man]

Eh, to each his own.

Here's an interesting question I've been thinking about in light of the current arc in Buffy season 10: What's the deal with Dracula? He's clearly not like other vampires. He seems to genuinely care about Xander. I wonder if maybe he has a soul and just keeps it to himself, or if maybe he used magic to somehow broaden his own horizons beyond just wanting to feed and murder people.

Dracula in the comics, throws me off so much.
A very strange fellow.

Do we know where the vampires came from?
He is dracula after all, i guess the guy works a little bit different then the other vampires.
Maybe he is just a "special" kind, like the immortal, Spike Ect.
His full backstory in the buffy universe is pretty much unkonw from what i remember, so its hard to say.
Season 10 has new rules, maybe the apply also to Dracula or so.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Vampires originally came from one of the Old Ones, Maloker, in the distant past infecting a primitive human with its blood. The timeline's a little murky, since I think a book on the show originally said that the very last Old One created the first vampire as it was leaving Earth's dimension, but Illyria later says she remembers vampires (plural) from her previous time on Earth, which would've been during the time the Old Ones ruled. Also, you've got the Turok-Han, which were a hardier breed of vampire than modern ones, so it seems like Maloker did a little trial-and-error before leaving (or some other power is responsible for Turok-Han). The most sensible explanation to me seems to be that Maloker happened to be the last Old One to leave, but he spawned vampires a bit before that (though still toward the end of the Old Ones' reign), and time and miscommunication mixed up a few details before reaching Giles' books.

Also, I don't think it was ever conclusively said whether the Immortal was a vampire or just someone who was immortal through other means.

 

[Havok83]

The chip was probably the first time since he became a vampire, that gave spike the chance to look at himself and were he was going.
Before he had Drusilla,Darla and Angel around him......this is not very healthy.
.

Druscilla dumped him in season 3 of Buffy. He had a good year before he got the chip where he was unattached to any of his vampire comrades. Guess what? He was being bad and evil like all other vamps

 

[Mani-Man]

Vampires originally came from one of the Old Ones, Maloker, in the distant past infecting a primitive human with its blood. The timeline's a little murky, since I think a book on the show originally said that the very last Old One created the first vampire as it was leaving Earth's dimension, but Illyria later says she remembers vampires (plural) from her previous time on Earth, which would've been during the time the Old Ones ruled. Also, you've got the Turok-Han, which were a hardier breed of vampire than modern ones, so it seems like Maloker did a little trial-and-error before leaving (or some other power is responsible for Turok-Han). The most sensible explanation to me seems to be that Maloker happened to be the last Old One to leave, but he spawned vampires a bit before that (though still toward the end of the Old Ones' reign), and time and miscommunication mixed up a few details before reaching Giles' books.

Also, I don't think it was ever conclusively said whether the Immortal was a vampire or just someone who was immortal through other means.

Hm, with his powers, doesnt this make Dracula his own kind of vampire?
He has different powers then any vampire before him right?
With all that which is unclear, its not impossible for Dracula to still have his soul.
Now that the vampire "rules" are thrown off, anything is possible, that is why im really enjoying season 10 so far.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

They haven't delved into Dracula's origins, but all of his wacky extra powers are from gypsy magic. He's actually just a vampire and a powerful warlock. That was before the new rules. All bets are off now.

On an unrelated note: Does it bother anyone else that the Scythe isn't a scythe? Like, at all?

 

[Sawyer]

If I was a scythe aficionado, I imagine it would. As it is, I'm not, so...

 

[Charlie Boy]

It was very shiney. So it passed all of my prerequisites.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Whatever, it bothers me. I guess "the Axe" doesn't sound as impressive, though.

Continuing my constant flitting from subject to subject: I really wish we could get a Fray movie or something. It feels weird that she only exists as a comic character even though she's a major character in the Buffyverse.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Ugh, I'm up to the series finale of Buffy in my Angel re-watch and the events of season 8 make Angel and Buffy's conversation so awkward and awful in retrospect. They're all bantery and cheerful, talking about their possible future together and such, and all that... stuff... is waiting just around the corner.

 

[Charlie Boy]

Not a Twylight fan?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Not a fan of Angel being so goddamn stupid.

Spoiler

It feels f***ed up that he anchored his own show for 5 years, proved himself as a Champion who could hold his own, found he was a pivotal figure in a bunch of prophecies and stuff... and then as soon as he comes back to Buffy's show, he winds up the screw-up who gets duped into being the villain again. It's doubly bad when you consider that he becomes Twilight fresh off of running Wolfram & Hart. Apparently he learned nothing from the fact that that little adventure culminated in the deaths of several of his dearest friends and LA being plunged into Hell. "What's that, you say? Throw myself in with the bad guys again--against the woman I love this time, no less--to try and contain their damage and change things from within? Sure; I didn't literally JUST finish trying to do that exact same thing with disastrous results or anything."

If I were Buffy, after season 8 I would've killed Angel on principle alone. His chronic stupidity endangers the whole goddamn world.

 

[flickchick85]

Y'all are making me really happy that I stopped reading S8 very early in, lol.

 

[ComicChick]

are the comics worth reading? i read the first 3 Buffy Omnibus'. do they get better?

 

[Charlie Boy]

Not a fan of Angel being so goddamn stupid.

Spoiler

It feels f***ed up that he anchored his own show for 5 years, proved himself as a Champion who could hold his own, found he was a pivotal figure in a bunch of prophecies and stuff... and then as soon as he comes back to Buffy's show, he winds up the screw-up who gets duped into being the villain again. It's doubly bad when you consider that he becomes Twilight fresh off of running Wolfram & Hart. Apparently he learned nothing from the fact that that little adventure culminated in the deaths of several of his dearest friends and LA being plunged into Hell. "What's that, you say? Throw myself in with the bad guys again--against the woman I love this time, no less--to try and contain their damage and change things from within? Sure; I didn't literally JUST finish trying to do that exact same thing with disastrous results or anything."

If I were Buffy, after season 8 I would've killed Angel on principle alone. His chronic stupidity endangers the whole goddamn world.

See, I stopped right at the whole Twylight thing. All I really remember from it was BrianWilly's avatar of Buffy and Angel having space sex.

Y'all are making me really happy that I stopped reading S8 very early in, lol.

I read them very sporadically, and even then I read more Angel than Buffy.

 

[Lord]

It's kinda sad to see Joss Whedon s**** on Angel in order to tell his Buffy stories, from season 9 i only read up until issues 9 or so, but i remember Angel & Faith being better than the Buffy comic, while it's part of that wave, instead of being its oun Season.

ComiChick, the omnibuses aren't exactly "canon", the stories we're talking about are the ones of the official continuations of the show: Buffy Season 8.

The Comics are right now in Season 10, i haven't been picking them for a while, with Season 8 they tried to tell an epic story but failed miserably, wasting plenty of good elements and making a mess of a story. I mean, what was the point of bringing Warren and the Master back if you're not going to really do anything with them?

Last i checked, Season 9 was much more focused, though it still had some wasted decisions, like having Buffy pregnant, only to not follow with it and have her be in a robot body at the moment.

 

[Mani-Man]

are the comics worth reading? i read the first 3 Buffy Omnibus'. do they get better?

i think it comes to personal taste with them.

At first i was not really happy with them, the characters didnt felt like the ones from the show and they tried too hard to be a comic universe.
But now im actually enjoying them, season 10 is fantastic so far...in my opinion.

It takes some time to get used to this "brighter" and stranger universe.
The show was a little bit more grounded and "darker" in tone, maybe its the art that gets me to feel this way, a couple of more shadows and paler coloring would help....but okay.

The comics have their moment, the whole xander/dawn thing is still strange to me, at first i was thrown off extremely by it, but now im used to it.

The laughable attempt to give buffy some other love interest is just dumb, Riley was already a huge failure, it comes down to either angel or spike, everybody else is just not working.

Im glad that they didnt go all the way with the whole pregnancy thing, i dont think it would have done any good.
After whats his name in the show, i dont think buffy would sleep around with anybody....not even drunk/cursed etc.

Since i dont like angel, i only read Angel & faith because of faith.
They dont feel as comicy as buffy, that is good.
I actually find the idea of Angel/Faith quite interesting, its something that they could build up on.


Its been some time since i have read them, maybe i will pick them again now.
One last thing i need to say, the cover art is amazing on both series, really detailed and cool.