Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[Scarecrow_King]

I finally snagged a Sunnydale High School t-shirt at Dallas Comicon a few weeks ago. I've only ever seen it sold in girl versions, but I finally found a vendor there that had one for men.

I love it.

 

[eplo]

Finally finished Angel. I really wish there was one more episode that showed the epic battle that was about to start. Other then that the final episode was great. Best of all Gunn made it to the final battle even if Illyria told him he only had 10 minutes to live.

 

[Lord]

Where did this "Joss Whedon plans his plotlines various years in advance" idea come from? I like Buffy and Angel, but aside from a few exceptions, it mostly seems to have been planned as time went on, it doesn't realy look like he ever planned that much in advance. There is the Mayor plot aluded to in the 2nd season, but that was one season in advance, or the Season 4 finale where the first slayer hypes up the following season's big bad, which isn't all that unique or planning much ahead.

Then there are certain parts that seem so obviously thought at the moment, like Angel's return, "excuses to keep Cordelia around", Angel Season 4, etc. At most they seem to plan a season from its beginning or from the end of the previous one, but they mostly follow the same structure as other show regarding what they plan and do not, new shows even seem to need to plan more carefuly nowadays.

Even the First was basicaly forgotten for years, it wasn't used in Season 5, which was originaly going to be the Series Finale, so it seems like Joss just remembered about the concept again and made it the final villain.

 

[Slick]

It's funny I'm also re-watching Buffy and Angel. I'm currently on season 2 of Buffy " What's My Line" I forgot how much I love this series. I plan on starting Angel after season 4 of Buffy.

 

[flickchick85]

Where did this "Joss Whedon plans his plotlines various years in advance" idea come from? I like Buffy and Angel, but aside from a few exceptions, it mostly seems to have been planned as time went on, it doesn't realy look like he ever planned that much in advance. There is the Mayor plot aluded to in the 2nd season, but that was one season in advance, or the Season 4 finale where the first slayer hypes up the following season's big bad, which isn't all that unique or planning much ahead.

Aside from the one about the Mayor you mentioned, most of that talk came from his plan for season 5 of Buffy being divulged to certain cast/crew (at least SMG) and foreshadowed during S3. He had S5 planned pretty far ahead, hence the prophetic dreams with Faith in the S3 finale where he begins the "dream clock" motif counting down the days to [blackout]Buffy's death[/blackout]. It's after S5 that they were less prepared, because he had originally figured the show would probably end at that season. BUT, he did already have the The First Evil introduced in S3 (another episode he wrote) and made a point to NOT have Buffy defeat it, to have in his back pocket for use as a Big Bad later on down the road if the show went beyond expectations. And of course, he dropped a big ol' foreshadowing anvil about Willow's sexuality in another one of his S3 episodes. Basically, any episode he wrote in S3 (and even a couple in S2) deliberately foreshadowed very specific major plans for future seasons.

And of course all the foreshadowing in "Restless" (S4) for seasons 5 & 6.

I think the notion might also come from some sort of long-term plan he & Tim Minear were supposed to have for Firefly that never came to fruition. But I've only heard about that, didn't read it in an interview firsthand or anything, so I'm not sure.

Dollhouse also seemed to have a pretty elaborate plan in place that had to be rushed to the finish when it was cancelled. Though, he wasn't running that show so I don't really count it. He was also never the showrunner on Angel.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I'm almost done with Angel. Season 5 has just been great so far. I love the more self contained nature of each episode. The past few episodes of Angel have been some of the best in the entire show.

The Fred/Illyria episode, the suburban hell dimension, and of course, the brilliant Angel puppet episode.

 

[Havok83]

I really wish they'd remaster the series and release it on bluray. The closest thing we have to watching Angel in HD is the TNT reruns, but Id rather have it to own and view at my own pace

 

[Mani-Man]

I really wish they'd remaster the series and release it on bluray. The closest thing we have to watching Angel in HD is the TNT reruns, but Id rather have it to own and view at my own pace

Its beyond my understanding, how little merchandise and stuff gets released for Buffy.

The show is quite popular, even after all this time.
Now more then ever, such shows work fantastic, so you would think that there would be "tons" of BluRay sets, Figures, etc.

A new video game would also be pretty sweet.

 

[Havok83]

Its beyond my understanding, how little merchandise and stuff gets released for Buffy.

The show is quite popular, even after all this time.
Now more then ever, such shows work fantastic, so you would think that there would be "tons" of BluRay sets, Figures, etc.

A new video game would also be pretty sweet.

they got their plates full but TellTale Games making a game in that universe would be awesome.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Faith and Tara alluding to Buffys death in S5 and Faith alluding to Dawn were the main things, but oh were they gooood. Even a year of planning ahead is still more than most shows do. They just get to the end of the season and then wait till they go back to work to try to find out how to get out of whatever situation they put themselves in.

And I liked how Joss treated each season like it was its last. The show could've ended any season and still would've been good.

 

[Doctor Jones]

So I just finished Angel and I gotta say, for it being the unintentional end, it was brilliant. It could have easily gone another season and preferably so, yet looking at what it is, it still functions incredibly well as a series finale. The over arching theme of this never ending battle yet despite the seemingly impossible odds, always fighting the good fight. And better yet, having your friends by your side. That final image of the four bloodied, soaked in the rain, exhausted (or the three of them anyway) and just finding out about Wesley's death, it still isn't over. And they keep fighting on and will do so.

It's gotta be one of my favorite series finales ever. That final scene just absolutely nailing it. I gotta say, they even tied things up character wise better than in Buffy in a single episode and that was a definite finale.

And a highlight in particular was Lorne's final scene. Powerful stuff. It's just classic Whedon writing of taking the most unlikely characters and making them do the most unlikely things, but they become changed by what's already transpired.

You guys were right. This show was just as good, if not better than Buffy in places. The last few episodes of season 5 were some of my favorites. I have a soft spot for The Girl in Question. Just classic Angel/Spike hijinks that's endlessly entertaining.

 

[flickchick85]

So I just finished Angel and I gotta say, for it being the unintentional end, it was brilliant. It could have easily gone another season and preferably so, yet looking at what it is, it still functions incredibly well as a series finale. The over arching theme of this never ending battle yet despite the seemingly impossible odds, always fighting the good fight. And better yet, having your friends by your side. That final image of the four bloodied, soaked in the rain, exhausted (or the three of them anyway) and just finding out about Wesley's death, it still isn't over. And they keep fighting on and will do so.

It's gotta be one of my favorite series finales ever. That final scene just absolutely nailing it. I gotta say, they even tied things up character wise better than in Buffy in a single episode and that was a definite finale.

And a highlight in particular was Lorne's final scene. Powerful stuff. It's just classic Whedon writing of taking the most unlikely characters and making them do the most unlikely things, but they become changed by what's already transpired.

You guys were right. This show was just as good, if not better than Buffy in places. The last few episodes of season 5 were some of my favorites. I have a soft spot for The Girl in Question. Just classic Angel/Spike hijinks that's endlessly entertaining.

Glad you enjoyed the finale as much as I did! I just really feel like there are very few finales that so perfectly re-enforce the overarching theme of the series like that one did.

And yeah, a lot of people hate "The Girl in Question," and I think a lot of that might have to do with it being such a silly episode so close to the end when everything's supposed to be at the most intense. Kinda killed the momentum of the season a bit, I guess. But I personally have always loved it and really look forward to it on re-watches. It was a nice way to see Darla and Dru one last time before the end too, even if it was just in flashback.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I know they didn't want to bring in SMG for the finale for obvious reasons but it would have been sweet to see Buffy standing there with an army of Slayers.

 

[Charlie Boy]

Eh, I'm glad we didn't. It wasn't her fight. The same way it wasn't Angel's fight in Buffy's series finale. It would have felt odd.

 

[jaymes_e06]

But Angel was around to help her still for the final battle. I see what Primal means.

 

[Charlie Boy]

He helped with Caleb, then bounced out.

 

[flickchick85]

He basically did the bare minimum just to stop in and say hi, lol.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Um you might need to re-watch he does more than that. He actually gives her the key to close the seal the amulet Spike uses. He wanted to be the one to use it too.

 

[Marvolo]

Eh, I'm glad we didn't. It wasn't her fight. The same way it wasn't Angel's fight in Buffy's series finale. It would have felt odd.

Never saw the logic with this. If Buffy and the slayers had failed that darkness would not have stayed in Sunnydale. It would have spread across the U.S. and if Angel and his allies had failed in LA then that darkness would have spread. Both fights were the fight of anyone who cared about stopping evil and preserving this world. So frankly not calling in all the troops in both fights was pretty stupid, and only ever a result of budget and scheduling problems.

That being said, I got so sick of Buffy and Angel's whole shtick together that I'd have rather watched the world be consumed by hellfire than watch those two fight together or do anything together.

 

[flickchick85]

Um you might need to re-watch he does more than that. He actually gives her the key to close the seal the amulet Spike uses. He wanted to be the one to use it too.

You misunderstand - I'm not holding anything against Angel here. He wanted to be part of the fight, but Buffy sent him away in case they failed and "needed another front." AKA, the writers didn't want him to be a part of it. I'm just talking about the reality of the situation which was that they wanted him to drop by since he was one of the original characters from the show and people wanted to see him, but not to actually figure into the plot at all, because they wanted to pay off the story they'd been telling with their current characters all season, so they came up with the whole amulet thing just to give him an excuse to come over to the show for 5 minutes during the finale. All he did was hand off the amulet and punch Caleb in the jaw (before then stepping aside and letting Buffy finish him like she would have anyway). Then had a heart-to-heart with Buffy about their relationship and leave. Which is the Buffy equivalent of coming over and saying "hey."

 

[Charlie Boy]

Um you might need to re-watch he does more than that. He actually gives her the key to close the seal the amulet Spike uses. He wanted to be the one to use it too.

Yeah, he wanted to, but didn't. He knew she had to do this on her own, with her crew.

 

[Lord]

Willow being Lesbian wasn't exactly foreshadowing, it felt like it was done with vampire Willow more as a way to get some jokes out of the situation, and then when Oz left, she and Tara ended up being together almost by accident, i remember seeing somewhere that it originaly wasn't intented but they realised it made sence midway through Season 4.

Thought the Season 4 finale only aluded to Season 5, 6 almost seemed like it came by surprise.

Joss wasn't showrunner of Dollhouse or Angel? That does explain some things in the way the Angel franchise has been treated in the comics format, serving as second tier for the Buffy story. And if Season 8 also reflects his original intentions, then the character of Angel was always going to end up mistreated.

if Angel and his allies had failed in LA then that darkness would have spread.

Actualy, it was a very similar situation to what hapened in Season 4, LA was the only part that was affected according to After the Fall, W&H probably knows that atracting the slayers is the last they should do.

 

[jaymes_e06]

You misunderstand - I'm not holding anything against Angel here. He wanted to be part of the fight, but Buffy sent him away in case they failed and "needed another front." AKA, the writers didn't want him to be a part of it. I'm just talking about the reality of the situation which was that they wanted him to drop by since he was one of the original characters from the show and people wanted to see him, but not to actually figure into the plot at all, because they wanted to pay off the story they'd been telling with their current characters all season, so they came up with the whole amulet thing just to give him an excuse to come over to the show for 5 minutes during the finale. All he did was hand off the amulet and punch Caleb in the jaw (before then stepping aside and letting Buffy finish him like she would have anyway). Then had a heart-to-heart with Buffy about their relationship and leave. Which is the Buffy equivalent of coming over and saying "hey."

It is and my post was not directed at you but since you quoted me I'll just say that you I don't disagree but we must see what's in front of us and not the production crew giving fan service because that will only take us out of the story. The narrative called for a game changer and he was the one who delivered this whether or not you think it contrived is besides the point.

Yeah, he wanted to, but didn't. He knew she had to do this on her own, with her crew.

Buffy was the one who sent him away not the other way around so...

 

[Charlie Boy]

So I was wrong in who set him away, but my point was that he wasn't there, and he shouldn't have been there. Not at the last minute, not like that.

He was in the finale as somewhat of a bookend to that character and the Buffy/Angel relationship overall. Angel, swooping in all cool and what not, helping Buffy, but not saving Buffy. Having Angel be apart of the finale made sense for BTVS because he was apart of that show from the beginning. Shoehorning Buffy and her army of slayers into Angel's finale may have looked cool on the surface, but it would have felt cheap... In my eyes at least.

The finale is supposed to encapsulate everything a series is. Pay homage to all of the people who had a hand in their fight. Buffy and her crew weren't with Angel and co. side by side, so for her to pop up in the finale would have taken away from what Angel, Gunn, Wes, Fred, Cordy and Lorne accomplished or at least what they were attempting to accomplish.

That's how it would have come off to me anyway.

 

[Havok83]

IA. Buffy and the slayers had NO business in the Angel finale. It would have felt incredibly forced. At least there was some build up to Angel appearing on Buffy via Willow's appearance in his and Faith crossing over. It would have felt forced for Buffy to appear in the Angle finale though. She would have upstaged his characters which is not the route that should have been taken