Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[Specter313]

As controlling as the Watchers council always seemed to come across, I doubt they'd let anyone in they didn't have to. They'd want to be in charge, and you just know the government wouldn't allow that.

 

[Lord]

I'm shocked that they didn't even form the Government or be in control of it, being so old, i would be expecting them to be sort of like the Illuminati, pulling strings in the background

 

[Primal Slayer]

They had pull in some important areas. They threatened to deport Giles in a hot second if he didn't corporate with them or something.

 

[Lord]

Exactly, it's due to that, that i expected them to be more tied with the Government or even leading it, the way they were ended was very uncerimonoius

 

[Maximus One]

Agreed. The Council went out like punks

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Really? I thought their demise was quite explosive.

 

[metaphysician]

*cough* My own view is that the Watchers were no where near as ancient as they claimed to be. Oh, someone did create the Slayers originally, sure. However, the actual Watcher's Council we see today has not even the slightest continuity with said ancient shamans. They just at some point positioned themselves as mentors to the Slayers, which coincidentally gave them a big lift up in prestige versus other mystic orders.

 

[Thundarr]

I would in the very least classify Andrew as one, more so than Dark Willow since he was the catalyst of the events in season 6, DW was just his final mess.

I think you meant Warren here. Andrew was always against killing people. "We're villains, we're not murderers!"

 

[Lord]

Yeah, my bad. Mixed the names.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

*cough* My own view is that the Watchers were no where near as ancient as they claimed to be. Oh, someone did create the Slayers originally, sure. However, the actual Watcher's Council we see today has not even the slightest continuity with said ancient shamans. They just at some point positioned themselves as mentors to the Slayers, which coincidentally gave them a big lift up in prestige versus other mystic orders.

I was just thinking this

 

[ComicChick]

They could still have mentioned the guy more, in fact, every time we know something about Xander and Willow's background, they're the only constant, even Cordelia is mentioned in their past more.

I also have to wonder what the Government is doing, i'm sure they could do more than what seemed to happen in Season 4 or them joining Twilight in Season 8

i'm still back in season 3.

just wondering:

does amy's mom ever get out of the trophy?

i remember a character (i think played by Clea DuVall) who had some kind of ability being sent to a class or something that was run by the government for more people like her. is that institute the Initiative or something that was dropped?

The Master I remember kind of campy, I would've liked to have seen more with him. I liked the Angelus arc, the vampire with a soul thing, before vampires were "good" everywhere (i mean in other vamp niche things) and I think the Mayor is fun, mostly because that's where I originally started watching. Graduation Day was my first episode ever.

I really like Faith's character, and I really enjoy seeing now in retrospect how much Cordelia and Wesley grew as characters over on Angel. I really loved Darla on Angel, i had no idea she was so "weak" on Buffy. She wasn't a threat at all from what I remember and wasn't on the show long to begin with

 

[Specter313]

i'm still back in season 3.

just wondering:

does amy's mom ever get out of the trophy?

Nope, but she is mentioned again in a small bit with Oz.

i remember a character (i think played by Clea DuVall) who had some kind of ability being sent to a class or something that was run by the government for more people like her. is that institute the Initiative or something that was dropped?

Don't know if that was supposed to be the Initiative or not, honestly. Would have been cool to see that again with the Initiative.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Yeah there are a couple of things that were cliff hangers that never really got mentioned again. Invisible girl, Amys mom (apart from Ozs small comment), and those fish boys.

 

[flickchick85]

When Amy transformed back into a human in S6, Buffy asked her if she had talked to her dad yet, and Amy said she was avoiding him. It was like her mom wasn't even in the picture anymore, so I think her "situation" was probably permanent.

 

[Lord]

I don't think that one with Amy's mother was supposed to be a cliffhanger, sort of her having doomer herself. There are a few loose threads that were left on purposed in Season 1 like the eggs and the invisible girls that were probably nods to horror film claffhangers. No matter what fans wanted, i guess Joss Whedon was simply not interested in bringing those concepts back, so the laters seasons had a tighter continuity.

I wish we had seen more organisations from the Government, i mean, it's the freaking Government, they should be able to get information on all these things very fast and develop some good weapons to hunt down demons and vampires. I figure that they would start hiring mages and the likes.

 

[Havok83]

The Amy episode was probably one of my favorites in season 1. Man did I hate her though when she reappeared years down the line

 

[Wine-N-Cheese]

Have you guys found yourself changing opinions a character, on rewatches? When I first watched Buffy, as a teenager, I couldn't stand Faith, Dawn or Connor. Now, Faith is one of my favs, and Dawn and Connor don't annoy me anymore. I flip-flop on Buffy, Willow, Fred and Gun depending on the season. There are characters I always enjoy, like Wesley, Cordy and Anya, and of course, there are the characters I continue to hate on every re-watch: Xander and Kennedy.

I wish we had seen more organisations from the Government, i mean, it's the freaking Government, they should be able to get information on all these things very fast and develop some good weapons to hunt down demons and vampires. I figure that they would start hiring mages and the likes.

The Initiative was developing weapons, but they more interested in dissecting supernatural beings than hiring them. Whatever division Riley joined later, though, seemed to be more mage-friendly (his wife said something a working with shamans, IIRC). I don't know if I would have wanted to see that expanded further. The concept was sound, but the execution was really lacking, and didn't really mesh well with the fantasy elements of Buffy.

 

[Charlie Boy]

Have you guys found yourself changing opinions a character, on rewatches? When I first watched Buffy, as a teenager, I couldn't stand Faith, Dawn or Connor. Now, Faith is one of my favs, and Dawn and Connor don't annoy me anymore. I flip-flop on Buffy, Willow, Fred and Gun depending on the season. There are characters I always enjoy, like Wesley, Cordy and Anya, and of course, there are the characters I continue to hate on every re-watch: Xander and Kennedy.

I feel like when I initially watched Buffy, I was meant to associate myself with Xander, which I did...But as I've gotten older, the more I've realized just how much of a chump he actually was. He's the heart of the group, "he sees it all", he's the human component or whatever...

Xander Harris is a whiney little chump who needs a kick in the ass. Especially in season 7 when he receives his first real injury. That wasn't Buffy's fault, but he sure as hell made her and everyone else feel as though it was. Time and again people told Xander to fall back... Leave the fighting to people in the group who could afford to get hurt, but nooooo, Xander had to prove himself. Xander had to show everyone how much heart he had. He's a self righteous, cry baby.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

Thats very interesting. I just rewatched Angel and realized how poorly written Gunn was up until S4. S5 was his best definitely. But up until then his best episodes were about him and his crew. I dont hate him, I love the whole cast. He just had some really lame one liners. Wesley gets better and better every time. I remember finding Spike annoying in A-S5 but its worse on this latest viewing. Especially watching Angel straight forward without Buffy S7.

I agree about Xander. But hes just a flawed human. Which is really consistent. He was rude and manipulative to women, insecure, socially awkward in a bad way and he proved who he was when he left Anya at the alter and went after Spike.

I think his dream also explains who he is.

Spike on Angel was as if they were trying to make him appear cooler than everyone else but it felt forced. Angel's team was already tougher and older than the Scooby gang at the point where Spike was hanging around. They def wanted to recreate that. At the same time, i loved the Angel/Spike relationship from Destiny onward.

 

[Charlie Boy]

Thats very interesting. I just rewatched Angel and realized how poorly written Gunn was up until S4. S5 was his best definitely. But up until then his best episodes were about him and his crew. I dont hate him, I love the whole cast. He just had some really lame one liners. Wesley gets better and better every time. I remember finding Spike annoying in A-S5 but its worse on this latest viewing. Especially watching Angel straight forward without Buffy S7.

I never felt Gunn was poorly written. That's actually the first time I've heard that claim. Season 4 was actually my favorite season for Gunn. He takes a back seat to the Wesley-Fred romance, but his anguish and inadequacy resonated. He saw himself as just the muscle. The hero to rescue the damsel, which Fred always found herself in the role of. He was stalwart. The century. The constant.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

Yes I agree that was a good season for him. I dont mean poorly written exactly. Its hard for me to find fault in this show. I love Gunn I just feel like his role was just the muscle for a little while which makes his story better once he acknowledged that.

 

[Charlie Boy]

Each character had a season like that, where they were more or less a plot device... Maybe not an entire season, but more or less an arc.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

Thats true. I do love Gunn, he's a good character and J was awesome. I guess I connected to him more than I realized by being frustrated with his purpose. I just didn't exactly understand what his situation was early on. Did he live with his gang? It felt like there was something missing.

 

[Wine-N-Cheese]

Thats very interesting. I just rewatched Angel and realized how poorly written Gunn was up until S4. S5 was his best definitely. But up until then his best episodes were about him and his crew. I dont hate him, I love the whole cast. He just had some really lame one liners. Wesley gets better and better every time. I remember finding Spike annoying in A-S5 but its worse on this latest viewing. Especially watching Angel straight forward without Buffy S7.

I don't think Gunn was poorly written early on - I found him quite likeable - but after they exhausted his split-loyalties storyline, the writers had a bit of trouble giving him a unique role in the stories. Then he got sucked into that love triangle, which was really Wesley's storyline.

I agree about Xander. But hes just a flawed human. Which is really consistent. He was rude and manipulative to women, insecure, socially awkward in a bad way and he proved who he was when he left Anya at the alter and went after Spike.

I think his dream also explains who he is.

Yeah, he's a great character, but a terrible person. I think the writers tried to make him more mature and sympathetic in the later seasons, but he just annoyed even me more, because it meant that he could just self-reflect instead of having to face consequences for his *****iness.

It wasn't just the writing, though. I always felt that Brandon Nicholas was the weakest actor of the lot, and I had a much harder time empathizing with him than I did with the other, more emotive actors.

Spike on Angel was as if they were trying to make him appear cooler than everyone else but it felt forced. Angel's team was already tougher and older than the Scooby gang at the point where Spike was hanging around. They def wanted to recreate that. At the same time, i loved the Angel/Spike relationship from Destiny onward.

I agree. The Spike/Angel dynamic is good fun, but it exaggerates Spike's more annoying qualities.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

Also the more I watch Kate in early Angel, the more I love her and wish she had returned. I feel like Angel would have kept in touch with her. She could have been an occasional ally. Or joined Holtz instead of Justine.