Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[jaymes_e06]

Except for when they didn't. But then they did! But then they didn't. And then did! Didn't. Come on, they thought what they thought at the times they said what they said. Either way, it's irrevelent. The characters obviously didn't think of eachother as "brother and sister" in the show. And that was something that existed in the last quarter in season 2.

My point was you could clearly see their ambivalence towards there characters being together in their performances.

 

[Dagenspear]

Double post. Sorry.

 

[Dagenspear]

My point was you could clearly see their ambivalence towards there characters being together in their performances.

Most would read that as maturity. Especially after the annoying cryBuffy wankfest the writers of Buffy liked to go through. Not to say that wasn't delightfully entertaining. Also I'd find it pretty creepy if two full grown real life adults weren't ambivalant about the fictional characters they play having a fictional romance that they have no reason to have any stake in. Regardless I just don't see ambivalance in the characters, I see people not acting like obsessed psychos. But whatever.

 

[Lord]

I just wish when it came to Willow that they made it more like she is bisexual instead of just making her full on lesbian when it was clear that she was attracted to guys.

True, she dated Oz and Xander after all, after Season 4 it seems almost as if that didn't happen and she was allways Lesbian

 

[Dagenspear]

True, she dated Oz and Xander after all, after Season 4 it seems almost as if that didn't happen and she was allways Lesbian

Yeah, that was weird. We talked about this over on BB a while back too. I made the argument that because Vampire Willow was clearly bisexual and that we'd never been given any indication of vampirism altering sexuality that that meant that Willow herself must also be bisexual.

 

[ComicChick]

I started to like her once I started watching reruns, but during the original run, I hated her because my precious Fred died. The Spike/Illyria banter was gold, though.

yes!

I loved Fred, and initially hated Illyria because, well because of her, no more Fred. but i got over the hate.

part of the reason i haven't rewatched Angel yet is because of the end of the Fred storyline, i think that's the first episode of any show I ever cried during

 

[Wine-N-Cheese]

Meh. They ran out of ideas for Fred mid-S3, so I wasn't too bummed that she changed to a completely different character. Still, A Hole In the World really hit me hard. Not for Fred, because I was already apathetic towards her at that point, but for Wes. The dude really couldn't catch a break.

True, she dated Oz and Xander after all, after Season 4 it seems almost as if that didn't happen and she was allways Lesbian

Yeah, it felt like they did that just so they could make "I don't like boys anymore" jokes.

 

[Thundarr]

I just wish when it came to Willow that they made it more like she is bisexual instead of just making her full on lesbian when it was clear that she was attracted to guys.

This is what I've always thought too. Season 1 & 2 she's in love with Xander. Then in Season 2, 3 & 4 she's in love with Oz. In Season 3 she cheats on Oz with Xander, then fights to get him back. In season 3 she's all hurt that Xander had sex with Faith. In Season 2 she's hurt that Xander would rather kiss Cordelia than her. In Season 4 she's devastated when Oz leaves. Hell, even Vampire Willow from the alternate reality was into guys.

If she were full on lesbian, none of the above would have happened. Oh, she may have dated boys. She may have even mistaken her friendship with Xander as romantic love, as she had nothing to compare it to. I have friends & acquaintances who are gay. They all say the same thing. "They always knew they were gay, but tried to deny it early on because they were taught that it was 'wrong'." (or something along those lines)

No one ever just wakes up one morning and says "I'm gonna be gay now." Which is what Willow's transformation from straight to gay seemed like to me.

 

[Sawyer]

In fairness, did she ever actually label herself "lesbian"?

 

[Primal Slayer]

While I dont remember 100% I am pretty sure something like that was discussed on the show.

 

[Donnie Darko]

I always thought Willow's relationship with Tara should have been a special thing, as opposed to "Willow's gay now." Like it seemed that they were playing it as Tara and Willow being soulmates (or whatever). Their love/attraction transcended any preconceived notion about Willow's sexuality. At most, it should have opened her eyes to being into other women after Tara's death, but it shouldn't have been a switch they flipped to strictly lesbian.

 

[Specter313]

In fairness, did she ever actually label herself "lesbian"?

 

[Great Mind(s)]

If the quotes were during the Tara relationship then it makes sense. The S7 "I'll work around it" line is just...wrong. I remember that part, with the guy everyone was in love with. It makes no sense. Buffy's line is fine but Willow could have actually had a rebuttal like "my guy ratio outweighs my gal ratio" or something.

 

[Warhammer]

yes!

I loved Fred, and initially hated Illyria because, well because of her, no more Fred. but i got over the hate.

part of the reason i haven't rewatched Angel yet is because of the end of the Fred storyline, i think that's the first episode of any show I ever cried during

I always felt bad for Wes as well. Like somebody said above, that dude couldn't catch a break.

This is what I've always thought too. Season 1 & 2 she's in love with Xander. Then in Season 2, 3 & 4 she's in love with Oz. In Season 3 she cheats on Oz with Xander, then fights to get him back. In season 3 she's all hurt that Xander had sex with Faith. In Season 2 she's hurt that Xander would rather kiss Cordelia than her. In Season 4 she's devastated when Oz leaves. Hell, even Vampire Willow from the alternate reality was into guys.

If she were full on lesbian, none of the above would have happened. Oh, she may have dated boys. She may have even mistaken her friendship with Xander as romantic love, as she had nothing to compare it to. I have friends & acquaintances who are gay. They all say the same thing. "They always knew they were gay, but tried to deny it early on because they were taught that it was 'wrong'." (or something along those lines)

No one ever just wakes up one morning and says "I'm gonna be gay now." Which is what Willow's transformation from straight to gay seemed like to me.

I hated when Willow became gay. It wasn't natural. In fact, it was one of the reasons why I started despising the later seasons.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

I thought her relationship with Tara was very natural. Because it wasnt like she was suddenly gay, as others said, she fell in love with another witch who was her soulmate. It actually happens all the time. Well, not the witch part.

 

[Warhammer]

Eh. People don't just turn gay.

 

[Donnie Darko]

The build up/execution of her relationship with Tara was extremely well done, but the stuff that followed was weak. In fact, it seemed like she still had some feelings for Oz, but it was just greatly outweighed by her connection to Tara.

As far as "just turning gay", I really don't like the way they executed it, as far as her not being attracted to men anymore at all. However, have you never heard of someone who dates (or even marries) someone of the opposite sex and then one day realizes their attraction for the same sex?

 

[jaymes_e06]

Be that as it may I always thought that Willow just found her soul-mate with Tara not necessarily that she was completely unattractived to men.

 

[Warhammer]

My thing is, I doubt that on the first episode of the show, Whedon and company were like "This character Willow actually likes women. But we won't expand on it for we're five seasons deep." That's why to me, it was jarring. It just kinda happens. There is no build up to it that I can remember.

It didn't help that the show made sure you knew she was labeled as gay and not bisexual.

 

[ComicChick]

yeah i didn't like how they pushed that either, especially when she really liked Xander in the beginning, and of course Oz.

 

[Thundarr]

In fairness, did she ever actually label herself "lesbian"?

In the episode with Oloff The Troll in Season 5, when Anya insinuated that Willow might try to seduce Xander away from her.

Anya: "I know what broke up Xander and Cordelia. It was you! You and your lips!"

Willow: "That's not true! Well, okay it is. But that will never happen again!"

Anya: "How can I know for sure?"

Willow: "Hello, gay now."

And then in Season 7 Willow tries to cast a spell on Dawn's big crush RJ to turn him into a girl so that they can be together.

I'm sure there are more examples, but after Season 4 they do make it pretty clear that she no longer has any interest in boys.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Willows transition to Tara was done extremely well and believable, her going total lesbo afterwards though....not so much. She should've found out that "oh hey...im kind of bisexual" like Vamp Willow was.

I just wonder what they would've done had Seth Green decided to stay on the show instead of leaving.

 

[Thundarr]

Willows transition to Tara was done extremely well and believable, her going total lesbo afterwards though....not so much. She should've found out that "oh hey...I'm kind of bisexual" like Vamp Willow was.

I just wonder what they would've done had Seth Green decided to stay on the show instead of leaving.

I agree. It's not her feelings developing for Tara that bothered me. That was really well done and believable. It's her going total lesbo afterwards that wreaks of poor writing/research.

At least Joss should have realized that if Willow is "kinda gay" as she had said a couple of times on the show (Season 3 after meeting her vampire self, then again in Season 7 when her memory altering spell backfires and all of the Scoobies forget who they are), then that means she's not "totally gay" (ie: kinda gay = bisexual).

As for Seth, I always thought that he should've returned for Season 7 instead of giving Willow a new losbo girlfriend. Re-establish that she once liked (and still likes) boys. Also, I found Kennedy annoying.

And just so that there's no confusion, my dislike of the whole lesbian angle isn't homophobic. My niece (who produced, directed, and starred in a live performance of Once More With Feeling, which I had posted You Tube links to earlier) has recently come out as being gay, and I couldn't be prouder (although I was hardly surprised, I saw the signs long before).

 

[Donnie Darko]

Thundarr, I agree about Kennedy. I was never a fan at all.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

My thing is, I doubt that on the first episode of the show, Whedon and company were like "This character Willow actually likes women. But we won't expand on it for we're five seasons deep." That's why to me, it was jarring. It just kinda happens. There is no build up to it that I can remember.

It didn't help that the show made sure you knew she was labeled as gay and not bisexual.

Well I guess I consider her bi and agree with you on that. She wasn't gay at all at the beginning or didn't have any idea she would like any female until Tara. And it wasn't like she saw Tara and was like ... it was more the insides, and it happened over time. It was that spiritual connection. So any lesbianness post Tara was stupid. It would have made her relationship with Tara better if in S7, Willow wasn't into women anymore. But I have a feeling they didn't want to come off as "Once you go gay, you can come back to the straight side" and offend the lgbt community who viewed Willow as a strong lesbian character.