Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[Warhammer]

I could only imagine the media s***storm that would have caused. Times were different ten years ago.

 

[Thundarr]

Well I guess I consider her bi and agree with you on that. She wasn't gay at all at the beginning or didn't have any idea she would like any female until Tara. And it wasn't like she saw Tara and was like ... it was more the insides, and it happened over time. It was that spiritual connection. So any lesbianness post Tara was stupid. It would have made her relationship with Tara better if in S7, Willow wasn't into women anymore. But I have a feeling they didn't want to come off as "Once you go gay, you can come back to the straight side" and offend the lgbt community who viewed Willow as a strong lesbian character.

That's probably what it was. I think Joss should have just reminded the LGBT community that the "B" in LGBT stands for "Bisexual", which is what Willow was.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Well I finally finished Buffy a couple days ago after nearly a year. And wow, what a terrific finale! The summation of the major themes of feminism by sharing what you own was powerful stuff.

It's hard to imagine another show in the midst of this greatness that presented such strong character growth. Seeing Buffy go from this high school girl to a woman leading an army, Willow from a timid bookworm to a powerful witch, and Xander from thinking he's only a useless wise ass to someone owning who he as the heart of the group.

Now onto finishing Angel... at a more easygoing pace however long that may last.

My only question. Was The First actually defeated?

 

[DA_Champion]

One of the greatest shows ever made.

And season 5... wow.

 

[Young Superman]

Agreed

 

[flickchick85]

Well I finally finished Buffy a couple days ago after nearly a year. And wow, what a terrific finale! The summation of the major themes of feminism by sharing what you own was powerful stuff.

It's hard to imagine another show in the midst of this greatness that presented such strong character growth. Seeing Buffy go from this high school girl to a woman leading an army, Willow from a timid bookworm to a powerful witch, and Xander from thinking he's only a useless wise ass to someone owning who he as the heart of the group.

Now onto finishing Angel... at a more easygoing pace however long that may last.

My only question. Was The First actually defeated?

Glad to hear you finished and enjoyed it! I was actually beginning to wonder about that a little while ago. Angel is the best consolation for finishing Buffy because it offers just enough Buffyverse connection (with continued guest appearances from Buffy alums) while sucking you into its own epic multi-season story arc. The only problem is when you finish Angel...

As for your question, no the First isn't actually defeated so much as their plan to open the Hellmouth was thwarted. The First Evil never goes away. I guess this is debatable, but I always considered them the same as Wolfram & Hart in Angel - they exist in every dimension, they have always existed and always will exist. They aren't trying to "win" the fight so much as make sure the fight continues to go on. Their plot in S7 of Buffy was just them taking an opportunity the Scoobies presented them (when they threw the balance by using dark magic to bring Buffy back from the dead) to tip the balance in evil's favor for a while (by unleashing the population of the Hellmouth into our dimension), and it failed.

 

[Jick]

Well I finally finished Buffy a couple days ago after nearly a year. And wow, what a terrific finale! The summation of the major themes of feminism by sharing what you own was powerful stuff.

It's hard to imagine another show in the midst of this greatness that presented such strong character growth. Seeing Buffy go from this high school girl to a woman leading an army, Willow from a timid bookworm to a powerful witch, and Xander from thinking he's only a useless wise ass to someone owning who he as the heart of the group.

Now onto finishing Angel... at a more easygoing pace however long that may last.

My only question. Was The First actually defeated?

Oh man, it's been so many years since I watched it for the last time. From what I recall, yeah, The First was defeated.

As for Angel, until the penultimate season the series is great. This particular season is really awesome and it's where they should have ended the show. But instead they made on more season, which, in my opinion, was the worst. I think it ruined what could have been a good ending.

 

[flickchick85]

Oh man, it's been so many years since I watched it for the last time. From what I recall, yeah, The First was defeated.

As for Angel, until the penultimate season the series is great. This particular season is really awesome and it's where they should have ended the show. But instead they made on more season, which, in my opinion, was the worst. I think it ruined what could have been a good ending.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. S5 of Angel is my favorite. Sure, it's less arc-driven and had more standalone episodes ala Buffy, but there were just so many aspects I don't want to spoil here that really re-enforced the overall thematic drive of the show, and the finale is one of my favorite finale's ever. It was just perfect to me. The greatest arc in the Buffy-verse was seasons 2-4 of Angel (that really was just one gigantic arc to me), but S5 contains just about all of the strongest and most memorable individual episodes of the entire show, imo.

 

[Hush]

S5 of Angel was incredible, my avatar alone is proof of that.

 

[Marvolo]

S5 of Angel was incredible, my avatar alone is proof of that.

One of the best episodes of either show.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Yeah s5 was one of the shows strongest. Even the ratings were higher for that season which is why it's cancelation came as such a surprise. I guess wb really thought it wasn't anything without Buffy around in dime capacity.

 

[Donnie Darko]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. S5 of Angel is my favorite. Sure, it's less arc-driven and had more standalone episodes ala Buffy, but there were just so many aspects I don't want to spoil here that really re-enforced the overall thematic drive of the show, and the finale is one of my favorite finale's ever. It was just perfect to me. The greatest arc in the Buffy-verse was seasons 2-4 of Angel (that really was just one gigantic arc to me), but S5 contains just about all of the strongest and most memorable individual episodes of the entire show, imo.

I agree with all this. Not Fade Away is my favorite Angel episode, and possibly my favorite episode of all of Whedon's shows.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Glad to hear you finished and enjoyed it! I was actually beginning to wonder about that a little while ago. Angel is the best consolation for finishing Buffy because it offers just enough Buffyverse connection (with continued guest appearances from Buffy alums) while sucking you into its own epic multi-season story arc. The only problem is when you finish Angel...

As for your question, no the First isn't actually defeated so much as their plan to open the Hellmouth was thwarted. The First Evil never goes away. I guess this is debatable, but I always considered them the same as Wolfram & Hart in Angel - they exist in every dimension, they have always existed and always will exist. They aren't trying to "win" the fight so much as make sure the fight continues to go on. Their plot in S7 of Buffy was just them taking an opportunity the Scoobies presented them (when they threw the balance by using dark magic to bring Buffy back from the dead) to tip the balance in evil's favor for a while (by unleashing the population of the Hellmouth into our dimension), and it failed.

I soldiered through season six... holy **** that was depressing. Nothing terrible but damn.

So pretty much the First's plan for Sunnydale was thwarted. Pretty incredible they had to destroy Sunnydale themselves to do it. Great ****. I think my favorite moment in the finale was seeing the original four gathered around talking about what they were going to do the next day.

And I'm on the midst of season 2 of Angel - about episode 12 in. I'm getting a little tired of the whole Darla thing but I suspect it to pay off in a big way.

I got this, Firefly, just started Orphan Black, and catching up on season six of Parks and Rec. So that should make for a nice substitute after Buffy.

 

[Donnie Darko]

Angel, Firefly, Orphan Black, and Parks and Rec? You have some high quality tv in front of you.

 

[flickchick85]

I soldiered through season six... holy **** that was depressing. Nothing terrible but damn.

Oh yeah, when I do re-watches I can't even soldier through that whole season. Not only is it damned depressing, but there are a select few episodes there that I think are kind of terrible. Joss wasn't a huge part of that season (Marti Noxon was running it) since he had his hands full with Firefly, and it showed, imo. Some of the metaphors were a little too heavy-handed that season for my liking. But the one-two punch of "Once More With Feeling" and "Tabula Rasa"...

I think my favorite moment in the finale was seeing the original four gathered around talking about what they were going to do the next day.

Yeah that was a nice little callback to the end of the pilot, with Giles once again lamenting that the world was doomed.

And I'm on the midst of season 2 of Angel - about episode 12 in. I'm getting a little tired of the whole Darla thing but I suspect it to pay off in a big way.

I actually really liked the Darla stuff in S2 because I just find her entire history and dynamic w/ Angel to be fascinating, but be warned, the payoff for that's not coming 'til S3, for a really stupid reason (apparently no one told Julie Benz that they'd need her back toward the end of the season, so she got another gig). As a result, the last few episodes of S2 are basically like this whole other little mini-arc with a completely different vibe that you might find jarring at first (a lot of people hated it when it was happening), but honestly, I look back at those episodes very fondly. And there is one major change to the team that it brings.

That said, when the payoff does eventually come with Darla, it's very satisfying, imo.

I got this, Firefly, just started Orphan Black, and catching up on season six of Parks and Rec. So that should make for a nice substitute after Buffy.

Oh yes, you're set for good TV for a while. Firefly is gold, I really enjoyed this season of P&R, and Orphan Black is quickly becoming another Buffy (in terms level of addiction) for me.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I was loving S6 until after OMWF, then it just went downhill and really gloomy. But Bargaining is one of my favorite premires.

 

[flickchick85]

I was loving S6 until after OMWF, then it just went downhill and really gloomy. But Bargaining is one of my favorite premires.

It was definitely one of the better premieres, imo.

Unfortunately there were very few episodes after "Tabula Rasa" that season that I even liked.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Eh... it was ok. I wasn't fond of the demon motorcycle gang, and for some reason I don't care for episodes where it takes so long for the main character to come back into the world they left. Though Buffy telling Spike where she really was was heaven was a giant kick in the balls.

And that episode where Amy and Willow become "drug addicted" with magic. Geez, that metaphor was terribly heavy handed.

 

[Sawyer]

I feel like season 4 and season 6 are pretty much yin and yang in my mind. Season 4 had a lot of great individual episodes, but the overall arc of the season (mostly due to The Initiative and Adam) left me cold. With S6, there were very few good individual episodes, but I like what they were going for with the overall story of the season. Though, of course, S4 might have the advantage, because if the episodes aren't all that enjoyable week to week, then it's just sort of intolerable.

 

[Lord]

S6 trully had some good ideas, but they weren't well executed enough. Adam was always a terrible idea, his awful design made it even worse.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I feel like season 4 and season 6 are pretty much yin and yang in my mind. Season 4 had a lot of great individual episodes, but the overall arc of the season (mostly due to The Initiative and Adam) left me cold. With S6, there were very few good individual episodes, but I like what they were going for with the overall story of the season. Though, of course, S4 might have the advantage, because if the episodes aren't all that enjoyable week to week, then it's just sort of intolerable.

That's actually a pretty perfect way of putting it. Season 7 is better as an arc season than stand-alone too.

Adam struck me as Buffy's Ultron. Them trying to do something similar but it ended up being boring instead. I think in Avengers, it's Whedon's opportunity to do what might have failed with Adam and pull it off. I sense great things with Ultron. If done right, he has the opportunity to be one of the best comic book villains on film ever. Plus, the idea of a robot as its villain for comic book films is pretty unprecedented, so there's a lot of unexplored ground there.

 

[ComicChick]

i really need to find some time to start this up again. i'm still only a few episodes into season 3 of BtVS

 

[Jake Cassidy]

I ****in' love these shows. I haven't been into any tv series this much since.

 

[flickchick85]

i really need to find some time to start this up again. i'm still only a few episodes into season 3 of BtVS

That season is just SO good.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

That season is just SO good.

Faith t: