Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[TheCorpulent1]

I wouldn't have minded a Buffy cameo in Angel's final episodes, but the Slayer Army would never have worked. Remember, Andrew tells Angel and Spike straight to their faces that the current leadership of the Slayers (probably more Giles and/or Xander than Buffy, if we're being honest) don't trust Angel because of his deal with Wolfram & Hart. It's kind of messed up that Buffy never actually asked what the deal is there, but that's just where things stood by the end of Angel's show. No way would Buffy, who may still have personally had a soft spot for Angel and been willing to help, convince the rest of the troops to go into LA and back up the CEO of Evil Incorporated.

Joss wasn't showrunner of Dollhouse or Angel? That does explain some things in the way the Angel franchise has been treated in the comics format, serving as second tier for the Buffy story. And if Season 8 also reflects his original intentions, then the character of Angel was always going to end up mistreated.

Angel is Joss Whedon's whipping boy. He gets treated like crap all the time. I think it has to do with redemption being the overall theme of Angel's character arc--he can never actually be redeemed, he has to keep struggling. Unfortunately, that's been handled in really awkward ways to manufacture more sins for Angel to want to atone for. Buffy season 8 is easily the worst example of that. Thankfully, 2 seasons of Angel & Faith later, it looks like Angel's finally getting built back up into a bona fide Champion rather than the village idiot.

 

[flickchick85]

It is and my post was not directed at you but since you quoted me I'll just say that you I don't disagree but we must see what's in front of us and not the production crew giving fan service because that will only take us out of the story. The narrative called for a game changer and he was the one who delivered this whether or not you think it contrived is besides the point.

Oh ha, sorry, I thought your post was directed at me, so I felt the need to clarify what I meant by "he did the bare minimum." I just meant from a story perspective. He came in, dropped off the important artifact and had a talk, then left. The minimum amount a character can do to forward a plot, basically. I didn't have a problem with it though, for the record. I was happy with what we got.

 

[flickchick85]

Joss wasn't showrunner of Dollhouse or Angel?

Nope. Well, he was a co-showrunner on S2 of Dollhouse, but Elizabeth Craft and Sarah Fain ran S1. David Greenwalt ran the 1st 3 seasons of Angel (the character was always kind of his baby anyway, since he wrote the "Angel" episode in Buffy S1, giving us Angel's main backstory for the first time). Then David Simkins and Jeffrey Bell ran Angel S4, and Bell ran S5 solo (but with heavier Whedon input than previous seasons, from what I understand).

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh ha, sorry, I thought your post was directed at me, so I felt the need to clarify what I meant by "he did the bare minimum." I just meant from a story perspective. He came in, dropped off the important artifact and had a talk, then left. The minimum amount a character can do to forward a plot, basically. I didn't have a problem with it though, for the record. I was happy with what we got.

But that talk did give us the infamous "cookie dough" analogy.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Glad you enjoyed the finale as much as I did! I just really feel like there are very few finales that so perfectly re-enforce the overarching theme of the series like that one did.

And yeah, a lot of people hate "The Girl in Question," and I think a lot of that might have to do with it being such a silly episode so close to the end when everything's supposed to be at the most intense. Kinda killed the momentum of the season a bit, I guess. But I personally have always loved it and really look forward to it on re-watches. It was a nice way to see Darla and Dru one last time before the end too, even if it was just in flashback.

It's silly, but very well executed and it's just a lot of fun. It's strange that it nears the end of the show but it works. I liked how they took a break from the usual formula of building the finale up so many episodes in advance. Besides, the penultimate episode did a fine job in building to the finale. Plus the inklings of forshadowing to the Black Thorn throughout the season.

But as satisfying as it was, goddammit. There should have been a sixth season.

Well, there ends my year long journey with both these shows. It's been a blast. Now I gotta figure out what the **** to watch next.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I honestly think WB canceled it because of Buffy not being around anymore and helping the hype because it makes no sense when Angel was the only show that season that gained viewers.

 

[Havok83]

I honestly think WB canceled it because of Buffy not being around anymore and helping the hype because it makes no sense when Angel was the only show that season that gained viewers.

David Fury tells a different story and Im inclined to believe him

It turns out The WB was prepping a lot of new shows (most of which crashed and burned) and didn’t want to lock in an older, more expensive series for another full season. So, when forced to make a decision early, the network decided to pull the plug. But had Whedon not asked for the early renewal, producer David Fury believes the show was all but “guaranteed” a sixth season if the execs could’ve waited to make the call.

"The only reason that Angel didn't come back…it's a very simple thing. Because our ratings were up, because of our critical attention, Joss specifically asked Jordan Levin, who was the head of The WB at the time, to give us an early pick-up because every year they [would] wait so long to give Angel a pick-up [and] a lot of us [would] turn down jobs hoping that Angel will continue - he didn't want that to happen. So, he was feeling very confidant and he just asked Jordan, "Like, make your decision now whether you're going to pick us up or not," and Jordan, sort of with his hands tied, with his back up against the wall, called hims the next day and said, ‘Okay, we're canceling you.’ Jordan's no longer there and The WB has since recognized…I believe Garth Ancier at The WB said that it was a big mistake to cancel Angel. There was a power play that happened that just didn't fall out the way they wanted it to. We wanted to get an early pick-up, we didn't. In fact we forced them to make a decision, and with his hand forced he made the decision to cancel us.

http://www.blastr.com/2013-9-9/little-known-sci-fi-fact-how-whedon-accidentally-got-angel-canceled

Makes sense to me. Angel was getting expensive to keep on and they were exploring other cheaper options. Joss forced the network's hands too early which caused them to react by cancelling the show, hoping they'd find a good pilot to replace it. Had they waited later and realized there really wasn't much there to replace the show, it likely would have been kept on instead of banking on something turning up

 

[Lord]

They couldn't know that Season 5 would gain viewers though, you could say that Supernatural the next year would be the replacement to Angel when it comes to supernatural related tv series, and that one doesn't need extensive makeup, so it was a cheaper option. If i'm not mistaken, Smallville was also popular at the time, so it wasn't a complete waste for them.

 

[DA_Champion]

Dollhouse is extremely underrated.

 

[Havok83]

Dollhouse is extremely underrated.

I hated that it was cancelled just as it was starting to get really really good. A season 3 could have been amazing. Ive never forgiven Fox for that and its why I try not to bother with their shows

 

[DA_Champion]

I hated that it was cancelled just as it was starting to get really really good. A season 3 could have been amazing. Ive never forgiven Fox for that and its why I try not to bother with their shows

I think Dollhouse started to get good in the second half of season 1. Unfortunately, it was too late, people found it really boring.

Season 2 does have some incredible episodes, specifically anything dealing with Victor/Sierra, but there were a lot of good characters.

 

[Havok83]

I think Dollhouse started to get good in the second half of season 1. Unfortunately, it was too late, people found it really boring.

Season 2 does have some incredible episodes, specifically anything dealing with Victor/Sierra, but there were a lot of good characters.

Silly me. I was confusing Dollhouse with Tru Callings, another amazing Dushku show which ended too soon.

 

[Primal Slayer]

They couldn't know that Season 5 would gain viewers though, you could say that Supernatural the next year would be the replacement to Angel when it comes to supernatural related tv series, and that one doesn't need extensive makeup, so it was a cheaper option. If i'm not mistaken, Smallville was also popular at the time, so it wasn't a complete waste for them.

They didn't come into the season knowing that it would be the last season though if I remember correctly. They had a couple of episodes on air.

 

[eddy]

I'm rewatching "I Only Have Eyes For You" from season 2 and Sarah Michelle Gellar is acting on all cylinders. Her performance is magnetic and its not even her best performance from the season let alone the series. She was robbed of a emmy nomination.

 

[Primal Slayer]

She really was. As was ASH. They both deserve emmys.

 

[eddy]

\Then David Simkins and Jeffrey Bell ran Angel S4, and Bell ran S5 solo (but with heavier Whedon input than previous seasons, from what I understand).

Eh. David Simkins didn't run anything in Angel season 4, not really. He was hired for it but then fired very quickly for creative differences without even getting a screen credit. Also David Fury was the co-showrunner during Angel season 5.

This reminds me of something I've been wanting to post here for a while.

A brief history of Mutant Enemy.

Its not up to date though. I hope the fan who wrote it would eventually update it for Dr. Horrible, Dollhouse, Cabin in the Woods, and AOS.

 

[eddy]

David Fury tells a different story and Im inclined to believe him
http://www.blastr.com/2013-9-9/little-known-sci-fi-fact-how-whedon-accidentally-got-angel-canceled

Makes sense to me. Angel was getting expensive to keep on and they were exploring other cheaper options. Joss forced the network's hands too early which caused them to react by cancelling the show, hoping they'd find a good pilot to replace it. Had they waited later and realized there really wasn't much there to replace the show, it likely would have been kept on instead of banking on something turning up

EH.

http://whedonesque.com/comments/8936

Ah, my first post. Another opportunity to put my foot in my mouth...

Okay, whenever I do an interview, I try to be truthful, candid and accurate. And much of the time I fail, which is why I don't do interviews anymore. (Hell, I barely remember giving this one. It was fourteen months ago!)

To paraphrase Joss' post, it's just one writer's perspective. It's also careless narrating on my part and, for that, I'm hugely sorry. So please allow me to set the record straight:

Joss was ALWAYS extremely involved with ANGEL. It was his show. His voice and sensibility. Stories either came directly from him or were cleared through him. My comment had more to do with missing his day-to-day presence in the writers' room during the show's last two seasons, when I was added to the staff. Obviously, this was during FIREFLY, the final season of BUFFY, and the development of SERENITY. The man was busy running the universe. Yet he still managed to break stories, write and direct episodes, and guide the direction of ANGEL through the entire fifth season.

My anecdote about Joss trying to get an early pick-up was also not accurate, I left out the altruistic part of the story: Joss did not want his writers to lose out on job offers from other shows if ANGEL wasn't coming back. The prior year, some writers turned down offers, and could have ended up jobless if ANGEL was cancelled. Joss didn't want that to happen. He didn't think it was fair to them to wait to know if they had a job for a sixth season. It was stupid of me to suggest the show would have been picked up if we had waited. The truth is the WB was going to cancel it no matter what. It was too expensive for them.

More apologies to come...

Fury | December 13, 01:48 CET

 

[PyroChamber]

Anyone besides me hate the fact that Wolfram & Hart was never mentioned on Buffy? I know that it was strictly the antagonist on Angel, and Buffy was on another network, but for a law firm that deals with evil you'd think they would have some dealings in a town with a Hellmouth.

I could imagine that the Mayor was a client of theirs.

 

[jaymes_e06]

^Good point. That could have had an awesome crossover potential of Lilah.

 

[ComicChick]

i liked Lilah

 

[DA_Champion]

I dig that Buffy and Angel were separate shows.

 

[Dr. Remy Lebeau]

Anyone besides me hate the fact that Wolfram & Hart was never mentioned on Buffy? I know that it was strictly the antagonist on Angel, and Buffy was on another network, but for a law firm that deals with evil you'd think they would have some dealings in a town with a Hellmouth.

I could imagine that the Mayor was a client of theirs.

It's funny I just finished reading the Buffy Season 9 run in the comics and Wolfram and Hart played a role in it. By the way, to those of you hungry for these stories to continue, they're currently on Season 10 of Buffy which runs concurrently with a comic focusing on Angel and Faith.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Anyone besides me hate the fact that Wolfram & Hart was never mentioned on Buffy? I know that it was strictly the antagonist on Angel, and Buffy was on another network, but for a law firm that deals with evil you'd think they would have some dealings in a town with a Hellmouth.

I could imagine that the Mayor was a client of theirs.

Yeah they should've at least had a small law firm in Sunnydale or agents. A Slayer is a major threat.

 

[flickchick85]

I always felt like The First Evil = Wolfram and Hart. More or less, anyway. Like W&H were a division of The First or something.

 

[PyroChamber]

Yeah they should've at least had a small law firm in Sunnydale or agents. A Slayer is a major threat.

I would have taken even a commercial.

I always felt like The First Evil = Wolfram and Hart. More or less, anyway. Like W&H were a division of The First or something.

I remember Illyria mentioned that Wolfram and Hart, or the Wolf the Ram and the Hart, were low level when she ruled; also makes you wonder if Illyria or even Wolfram and Hart know of The First.