Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire

[lorenzovanmatte]

You always hear these stories about cast members falling out but I never believe the tabloids. Frankly if Charisma had fallen out with Joss she wouldn't have come back for 'You're Welcome' (which makes me cry too) and she's said in interviews she didn't think there was much else she could do with Cordy after 8 years of playing her.
Personally season 4 is my favourite of Angel, the Faith/Angelus arc alone makes it so. As for Connor/Cordy, I'm ok with it as long as they're not blood relatives, fine with a girl wanting a father figure as long as she doesn't want her actual father (as HIMYM pointed out)

Only Have Eyes for you (which I inexplicably missed first time around)

The Good;
Lovely romance, lovely analogy of Buffy and Angel, Gile's mourning Jenny and a great tribute to the power of forgiveness. Wonderful scenes with Spike, Angelus and Dru too

The Bad;
Fairly little, a good ep although not a great one. Some pretty dodgy zombie makeup to be truthful

Best line;
Buffy; Something weird's going on!
Xander; Isn't that our school motto?

Wheldon cliches;

Knocked out;

Character death;
The teacher, another SDH faculty member bites the dust

Shot;
Angel(us) by Buffy

Tied up;

Women good/men bad;
Buffy's anger is focused at James, an obvious substitute for Angel. Cordelia is outraged at the idea of the Sadie Hawkins' dance, not a huge fan of gender equality, obviously.

Subtext;
What the fanficcers thought; http://www.t-s-s-a.com/stories/show-story....pingForLife.txt (ALL over 18s only) + http://buffy.adultfanfiction.net/story.php?no=17918 + http://buffy.adultfanfiction.net/story.php?no=18317

Questions and observations;
Whenever a gun appears in Buffy it's never good. Always nice to see Shakespeare paraphrased in a US teen show. What happens to the janitor who shot the teacher? Presumably without Giles' testimony and no gun the charges against him are dropped. We have the first confirmation that Snyder and the police are in on the conspiracy regarding Sunnydale and first mention of the Mayor. Spike getting out of the wheelchair at the end speaks of great things to come.

6/10 good ep without being brilliant,

 

[Primal Slayer]

Well she was surprised by the character getting killed and not coming back to the show. And there were news of slight discord between her and Joss during Season4.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, I've decided I don't care. The show was still good, and that's all that really matters to me.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Eh, I've decided I don't care. The show was still good, and that's all that really matters to me.

Agreed. And they seem to have made up since if he was considering her for Wonder Woman.

Becoming pt1

The Good;
The glimpses of Liam and Drusilla in their human forms are just too tragic for words, especially Dru. Good scenes with Whistler and of course Kendra back. Angelus' suicide telegram for Buffy (would they allow that post 9/11?). Snyder's chair shortage gag

The Bad;
David's accent. Where is it supposed to be from exactly? Are they after his lucky charms?

Best line;
Spike; "It's a big rock. Can't wait to tell my friends, they don't have a rock this big"

Wheldon Cliches;
Character death; yep, byebye Kendra, making it one recurring character dead every 8 eps or so. A shame to lose her but I think most would agree that Faith is better as both a character and a Slayer. And if she hadn't died? I figure Faith would have turned up as one of the potentials in season 7 and she rather than Kennedy would have hooked up with Willow.
Shot;
Tied up;
Knocked out; yep, Xander, Willow and Giles
Women good/men bad;

Questions and observations;
We get to see pre-Slayer Buffy in LA and a different version of Merrick. In this version Buffy does indeed miss the heart first time out as she later tells Dawn. The 'Do you know what time it is?' line is very clever, the same words as Joyce says in the movie but with a completely different meaning. Presumably Angel as a tramp is following the diner incident in the 70s we later see in season 4 of Angel. Willow once again play's the bashful virgin for comic effect. Whistler's 'puppets' speech is interesting when you consider Jasmine manipulating the Fang Gang over the course of Angel. Willow attempts her first spell.
10/10 no contest

 

[Doomed_hero]

Yes I rewatched season 4 and there where some great moments, my only problem was making Cordy be Jasmine the big bad but it was also written last minute to accomidate charisma preggers. there was no falling out she was just surprised in the direction of the character. I liked aspects of Conner and felt if they removed some repetitve scenes from the season it could have been bette swel as ven Gunn more to do.

The best part of the whole season is badass wes, that is where he kicked it into overdrive and became my true fav.

I was watching the cast of Buffy at a reunion with certain members of the cast and writer and felt sorry for Charisma cause the commentator was kinda a dick and kept asking if she was mad she left th show and that she missed this and that. Finallt David Greenswalt said," We could not do angel without Cordy cause she was the heart of the show." I rewatched the show and agree. whn she does go into the coma you feel as lost as Angel till she comes and brings him back. Her season 5 episode is one of the best of imo the best season of any joss whedonverse.

 

[Hush]

I'm really enjoying this 7th Season and have enjoyed seeing the Big Bad be involved the whole season. I have also enjoyed watching Andrew grow as a character as well. Spike having a soul is interesting and I love how she is back in the highschool now. After Storyteller i'm really interested to see what happens between the Principal (who i knew was the slayer that Spike killed's kid) and Spike. It's just a good overall Season and I can't wait to finish this show up its been fun. I love experiencing all this for the first time.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

I'm really enjoying this 7th Season and have enjoyed seeing the Big Bad be involved the whole season. I have also enjoyed watching Andrew grow as a character as well. Spike having a soul is interesting and I love how she is back in the highschool now. After Storyteller i'm really interested to see what happens between the Principal (who i knew was the slayer that Spike killed's kid) and Spike. It's just a good overall Season and I can't wait to finish this show up its been fun. I love experiencing all this for the first time.

You lucky thing! Savour it whilst it lasts, you've got a terrific last 6 eps to look forward to. Then go watch Angel!

Becoming pt2

The Good;
All of it, every scene between Spike and Buffy, Giles and Angelus and Spike and Joyce. Great scenes with all the Scoobies and the ending just too heartwrenching for words, especially with Sarah MacClachlan's beautiful music, all classic.

The Bad;
Are you kidding? It's all too wonderful!

Best line;
Joyce; "Have you tried NOT being a Slayer?"

Character death; Angel or so we think?
Shot;
Tied up; Giles and tortured
Knocked out; Dru which is rather strange, Spike seems able to knock her out with a chokehold despite the fact that she doesn't breathe and has no circulation.
Women good/men bad;

Questions and observations;
Joyce thinks Buffy is the Slayer because she didn't have a strong male role-model. Of course she'll later find out that Buffy is the Slayer because she did, she had Giles. The first (and only unless you can correct me) appearance of Willow's 'resolve face'. Xander's remarks at her bedside set the basis for their relationship in season 3. Willow successfully casts her first spell. Why is Buffy still wanted when Xander and Cordy can back up her story? Spike's reluctance to end the world seems odd considering he was happy to do it earlier
A couple of points that escaped me about Becoming pt2, firstly Dru seems to be deeply enamoured of Giles but then she always did have a thing for 'daddy'. Secondly as Jenny Dru says to Giles that they'll get to do all the things they never had a chance to implying that Giles and Jenny never did have sex

10/10 and I need a hug

 

[Hush]

Ok so that finale was almost as Lackluster as BSG's finale. I enjoyed it but really it just ends? No epilogue? While I enjoyed the ending I wish there had just been a tad more. I know there are comics but we prolly won't see SMG as Buffy again any time soon so an Epilogue wouldn't have killed. Overall as a show I give it a 8/10. Nathan Fillion as Caleb was pretty damn awesome though. I I'm on my fourth episode in the First Season of Angel. I have seen more of this show than I remember, its awesome. Still i'm primarily going into this with fresh eyes, so i'll have to avoid spoilers. Me and my Lady might start the show again after Angel is over.

I kinda have a side question, why is SMG not in any of the Special Features on the DVD set?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wasn't SMG like, way past ready to be done with the series by the time it ended? I vaguely remember something about her wanting to distance herself from the role and do other things.

Looking forward to your thoughts on Angel, Hush. It's my favorite of the two shows, and the first season was surprisingly strong. Most shows seem to take the first season to find their feet, but pretty much as soon as Wesley joins the crew, everything clicks on Angel and it's awesome.

 

[O'Haire]

I Will Remember You and Hero back to back is one big

But IWRY is where season one takes off and starts becoming really good.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Ok so that finale was almost as Lackluster as BSG's finale. I enjoyed it but really it just ends? No epilogue? While I enjoyed the ending I wish there had just been a tad more. I know there are comics but we prolly won't see SMG as Buffy again any time soon so an Epilogue wouldn't have killed. Overall as a show I give it a 8/10. Nathan Fillion as Caleb was pretty damn awesome though. I I'm on my fourth episode in the First Season of Angel. I have seen more of this show than I remember, its awesome. Still i'm primarily going into this with fresh eyes, so i'll have to avoid spoilers. Me and my Lady might start the show again after Angel is over.

I kinda have a side question, why is SMG not in any of the Special Features on the DVD set?

I thought the ending was great and much more triumphal than BSG low key ending although I liked it too (although you think this 'back to nature' thing would last about as long as it took for someone to get a toothache). I liked it that Buffy didn't say anything at the end, she didn't have to, her smile said it all and there was nothing else to add (actually our lovely Dawnie has the last word). They all walk off into the sunset and live happily ever after. Or Buffy wakes up sane again in the asylum, her room next to Angel/Liam who takes another year to be cured. Either way it's a happy ending.

Angel's great, look forward to your thoughts on it

Yeah, I'd have loved some SMG on the commentaries but apparently she flew off to Oz to make Scooby-Doo 2 (equally Faith is nearly entirely absent from some of the last eps as she was shooting Tru Calling). After 7 years I think it's forgiveable for them all to want to put some distance between them and the show and try something new. She's not the only one of course, many cast members didn't bother with the commentaries which is a shame. She has however turned up for the Buffy reunion a few years back so she must have fond feelings for the show/cast, lord knows she doesn't need the money

Anne

The Good;
Lovely to see Chantelle/Lily/Anne again. Great to see the slave rebellion. Love the long tracking shot around Sunnydale high, lovely cameo from Larry. Nice to see that Buffy can make it on her own but did anyone really doubt that she could? The gang's vamp hunting is hilarious. Terrific scenes between Giles and Joyce. The final scene when Buffy and Joyce hug is just too lovely.

The Bad;
Truly horrible what happens to the human slaves. Ricky's suicide is just awful

Wheldon Cliches;
Character death; None although Buffy still dreams of killing Angel
Shot;
Tied up;
Knocked out; Buffy by Ken
Women good/men bad;
Kinky dinky; Buffy as a slave but not of the sexual variety. Anne Summers is the name of a lingerie/sex toy chain in the UK.
Calling Captain Subtext;
Reccurring actor in another role; Carlos Jacott as Ken who'll later turn up as someone different in Angel and TSSC

Best line;
Giles; You musn't blame yourself
Joyce; I don't, I blame YOU. You've been this huge influence on her all these years

Questions and observations;
Surely a girl as attractive as Buffy could get a better job than waitress in LA? (Xander later wonders the same as he wants to know if Buffy met 'any nice pimps on her travels'?) 'Pretty Woman'? Belle du jour? Weren't Hooters or Spearmint |Rhino hiring? She's in LA, what about Playboy? (or would that mean Xander would be certain to spot her?). Ok I'm not entirely serious but honestly when did you ever see a girl as pretty as Buffy working as a waitress except in TV/Movies? (the other wise awful film 'The Last Action Hero' does a great joke on the theme). Plenty of fanfic with Buffy and indeed any or all of the Scoobygirls turning to prostitution over the years, my favourite ends with Revello Drive being turned into a high class bordello with Joyce as the madam and then eventually the same thing happening to the post-Chosen Slayer academy. http://buffy.adultfanfiction.net/story.php?no=600031116 if you're over 18 and VERY open minded. Of course having now watched Dollhouse you wonder if Joss would actually be quite keen on the idea, especially after watching the scene with Eliza Dushku as a dominatrix.
Or is Buffy just trying to lie low? Anne Summers is the name of a lingerie/sex toy chain in the UK
Cordy refers to Xanders exes who are almost all demons, Preying Mantis, Mummy Girl, Dru in BBB. Xander nails his third vamp with some help from Cordy. Joyce is a sad figure in her summer alone without Buffy but at least in everyone's revised memories she has Dawn to keep her company (to judge from the comics and Dawn's chopstick story she always knew Buffy's secret). I'm always intrigued by the times the Scoobies got by without Buffy, I would love to see more on it in the comics.
One thing that does occur to me is that the weapon used by Buffy during the slave revolt (the wonderfully named hung-munga) actually resembles a hammer and sickle at some angles. I'm sure it's just coincidence but if this were the 50s I'm sure Joss would be hauled before the un-American activities board.

8/10 I think although that may be a little generous

 

[Specter313]

On a random note, I saw Kristine Sutherland pop up on the tv the other day. She's in a commercial for Healthy Choice Cafe Steamers.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I Will Remember You and Hero back to back is one big

But IWRY is where season one takes off and starts becoming really good.

Yeah, I feel a bit bad saying the series got really awesome pretty much starting with [blackout]Doyle's death[/blackout], but it really did.

 

[Hush]

Wasn't SMG like, way past ready to be done with the series by the time it ended? I vaguely remember something about her wanting to distance herself from the role and do other things.

I guess that makes sense but it was just interesting that she wasn't there. If I ever meet her i'll more or less just want to say thanks for 144 hours of the best stories I have ever heard.

Looking forward to your thoughts on Angel, Hush. It's my favorite of the two shows, and the first season was surprisingly strong. Most shows seem to take the first season to find their feet, but pretty much as soon as Wesley joins the crew, everything clicks on Angel and it's awesome.

My lady is having the most trouble adjusting to Buffy being over and Angel being our "new" show, I ****ing love it. I like how he tries to be all "Batmany" and it falls in his face sometimes. He is such a good character just straigh up funny and awesome. I'm enjoying how things are working so far so I think I'll enjoy the whole show. Having Spike show up early and EVIL(which after seasons 4,5,6 and 7 of Buffy is completely different.) was a nice touch and I loved seeing Oz again who was just plain ol' wanna the best characters on Buffy. I like it so far.

I thought the ending was great and much more triumphal than BSG low key ending although I liked it too (although you think this 'back to nature' thing would last about as long as it took for someone to get a toothache). I liked it that Buffy didn't say anything at the end, she didn't have to, her smile said it all and there was nothing else to add (actually our lovely Dawnie has the last word). They all walk off into the sunset and live happily ever after. Or Buffy wakes up sane again in the asylum, her room next to Angel/Liam who takes another year to be cured. Either way it's a happy ending.

Angel's great, look forward to your thoughts on it

I just kinda wanted and Epilogue just like how they were going to train all the Slayers from now on and how all this was gonna change the world. Another thing about the finale that bothered me was how Xander handled Anya's death, like it was just a footnote. I loved her character and she just dies so quickly and Joss-like

Yeah, I'd have loved some SMG on the commentaries but apparently she flew off to Oz to make Scooby-Doo 2 (equally Faith is nearly entirely absent from some of the last eps as she was shooting Tru Calling). After 7 years I think it's forgiveable for them all to want to put some distance between them and the show and try something new. She's not the only one of course, many cast members didn't bother with the commentaries which is a shame. She has however turned up for the Buffy reunion a few years back so she must have fond feelings for the show/cast, lord knows she doesn't need the money

I guess she just had other stuff to do like Alysson Hannigan with the American Pie movies at the point too. To be honest I was just sad the show was over and wanted some more Buffy images. haha.

 

[Sawyer]

Eh. It was pretty awesome before that...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I like how he tries to be all "Batmany" and it falls in his face sometimes.

Oh man, that's one of my favorite parts of the character. My favorite is a scene from Buffy where Buffy's investigating this building and Angel tries to silently sneak in the door but slips and bumps into the door frame. There's also another good one where he's leaning against the mystical barrier on some dude's apartment while Gunn investigates the apartment. The dude apparently dies 'cause Angel suddenly falls through the door--and flat on his face--for no apparent reason. I was cracking up so hard.

 

[Hush]

Well in I think episode 3 of Season One, he tries to use a grappling hook and it just fails epicly, I laughed so ****ing hard. I love how Doyle is constantly making cracks at how he likes to brood like a Vampire and Angel just looks at him like "I'am a Vampire". I love Doyle, great character.

 

[O'Haire]

Oh man, that's one of my favorite parts of the character. My favorite is a scene from Buffy where Buffy's investigating this building and Angel tries to silently sneak in the door but slips and bumps into the door frame. There's also another good one where he's leaning against the mystical barrier on some dude's apartment while Gunn investigates the apartment. The dude apparently dies 'cause Angel suddenly falls through the door--and flat on his face--for no apparent reason. I was cracking up so hard.

Also during the Jasmine arc when Angel and Fred are going to get the blood from Cordy and while trying to quietly sneak in through the window to her room Angel falls over the dresser onto the floor.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Also during the Jasmine arc when Angel and Fred are going to get the blood from Cordy and while trying to quietly sneak in through the window to her room Angel falls over the dresser onto the floor.

Or as Gwen puts it "Where were you when they taught stealth in superpower school?"t:

It is a nice touch that Angel is such a goof, picking the wrong car in the pilot etc Personally for me Angel only becomes a great show in 5x5.

Xander takes Anya's death hard but Andrew's lies are there to comfort him. I like the way that the ending leaves the show open ended, Buffy looks down the endless road ahead, brimming with endless possibilities. And if you need more Buffy (and who doesn't?)there's always the comics/fanfic

Yeah Kristine's done stacks of commercials over the years, Diet Coke, Advil etc which must keep her bank manager very happy whilst she's appearing in theatre. I understand she's also currently appearing on a soap. She's not the only one Charisma and SMG also doing stacks of ads when they were younger, SMG reputedly a millionaire at 14 just through her advertisement work. I wonder if CC's bad experience making a commercial at the end of season 2 of Angel was based on her true life experience?

Dead Man's Party

The Good;
Cordy's outfit, Buffy's homecoming. Joyce's friend Pat. Jonathon. The attack of the undead, another Sunnydale High cheerleader seemingly amongst them. Giles's 'Americans' line and his hotwiring the car. Oz's party definitions. 'Ripper' threatening Snyder

The Bad;
Before Giles arrives the house is full of zombies, after he gets there they all disappear? Also would Joyce really choose to hang that horrible mask in the bedroom, even if it is art?

Best line;
Oz; "And a hootenany. Well that's chock full of hoot. With just a little bit of nanny" (How effortlessly cool is Seth Green in this scene?)

Wheldon Cliches;
Character death; So long Pat, we hardly knew you. But at least the actress goes on to be Earl's mum in 'My Name is Earl'
Shot;
Tied up; none although when Xander says he's tied up tomorrow Cordy says 'You wish'??????
Knocked out;
Women good/men bad;
Kinky dinky; Buffy is aghast that Joyce wants her to go to private school where she'll have to wear a schoolgirl's uniform. Well it worked for Britney. Cordy says that Xander turned her on with the whole 'Nighthawk' vamphunter look (she also seemed to like him in his army gear in Halloween) Her party dress has to be seen to be believed. Also see 'Tied Up'
Calling Captain Subtext; this time it's Oz and Cordy who end up in the closet together

Questions and observations;
So where is Dawn in all of this? Snyder advises Buffy to get a job in fast food which she eventually does. The confrontation between Joyce and Buffy is really long overdue and Joyce really does have a point. Willow is studying to be witch. Jonathon gets in on the demon fighting for the first time as do Joyce and Devon. After this it's business as usual and we're glad to get back to the status quo in Sunnydale. Joyce's tipple is schnapps and she has a book club (which she later attends in season 5). She also skis to judge by the weapons Oz and Cordy use in the closet. Xander calls himself Nighthawk on patrol, they seem to be pretty good at the vamp staking, having killed at least 6. I'd love to see if they handled any other supernatural threats during the summer. The Mayor is mentioned again and the first appearance of the Expresso Pump. Cordy refers to Buffy as a freak but she'll later become one herself on Angel. Presumably the Watcher's Council used their influence to help get Buffy back in school (see also Checkpoint). Willow is still practicing witchcraft and growing more proficient.
6/10, good but not brilliant

 

[Scarecrow_King]

so my friend got me to watch through all of Buffy since we met some of the actors at a convention. it's been enjoyable, but I have to say that I'm not that big a fan Angel.

that being said, is his show worth watching? His whole "I'm a tortured vampire" thing get old to me during the three seasons before he got his own spin-off. I don't want to waste my time watching it if he acts that way throughout his entire show, too.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Angel's show turned out to be better than Buffy's to me. I've watched all of Buffy twice, but I'm going into my fourth viewing of the entire Angel series soon.

 

[O'Haire]

so my friend got me to watch through all of Buffy since we met some of the actors at a convention. it's been enjoyable, but I have to say that I'm not that big a fan Angel.

that being said, is his show worth watching? His whole "I'm a tortured vampire" thing get old to me during the three seasons before he got his own spin-off. I don't want to waste my time watching it if he acts that way throughout his entire show, too.

Angel is definitely worth watching.

They get into the whole tortured vampire thing by having Cordy and Doyle make him connect to people. Which is pretty funny in the beginning. Especially him interacting with some women in the Lonely Hearts episode.

I liked it much more than Buffy.

 

[Harry_Lime02]

I wasn't a fan of Angel from his Buffy days but I still enjoyed the show. You're bound to find at least one character you love.

Buffy is still better tho.

 

[henzINNIT]

Wasn't SMG like, way past ready to be done with the series by the time it ended? I vaguely remember something about her wanting to distance herself from the role and do other things.

I feel that was grossly exaggerated at the time tbh. SMG would obviously want new work after Buffy, but she was willingly to reprise her role as miss Summers in Angel (and would have if not for her schedule).

I heard that Sarah didn't enjoy Season 6, which makes two of us; but she did her job so it's all a non-issue now.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Ya SMG didnt like where they took the character which I didnt either even though I understand why they did it. She was never the same after The Gift.

And I liked Buffy better than Angel. Angel was to moody for me, everyone on that show litterly did betray each other and I didnt like every character that wasnt Angel dieing.