Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire

[Hush]

So i just finshed Season 2 of Angel and just Started Season 3 and just finished Offspring. Man what a reveal! Through some IMDBing and slight remembrance of a re-run I saw, Pete Campbell is gonna play Connor? Thats crazy. I'm loving this show by the way.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

hey, I just started season 3 too. I'm actually about halfway through it, I just finished ep 12 "Provider".

so far, I'm liking it way more than I did Buffy.

 

[Matt.S99]

So, ive been rewatching all the Buffy seasons and im currently on season 7 so I have a question. What do you guys think of the way Buffy acted this season? How do you feel when she told Giles she would let Dawn die in order to save the mission, or taking the unexperienced potentials to the wine cellar so early on?

 

[Hush]

She was being a moron.

 

[Sawyer]

Little harsh.

 

[O'Haire]

So, ive been rewatching all the Buffy seasons and im currently on season 7 so I have a question. What do you guys think of the way Buffy acted this season? How do you feel when she told Giles she would let Dawn die in order to save the mission, or taking the unexperienced potentials to the wine cellar so early on?

Buffy was one of my lest favorite characters by the end of the series. She just seemed to get *****ier and *****ier each season.

The season 8 comics made me like her again though.

 

[Hush]

Little harsh.

Your face is harsh.

 

[Hush]

Happy Birthday Willow! Alysonn Hannigan is 37 today!

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Happy Birthday Willow! Alysonn Hannigan is 37 today!

Many happy returns Willow/Michelle/Lily!

I feel I must speak out in defence of Buffy in season 7. She had the world on her shoulders and she had to be a hardass just as Giles had to be with her earlier on. Everyone makes mistakes in the show and everyone is eventually forgiven, no one get's it right all the time.

As for Buffy vs Angel I liked every Buffy season better than every Angel season except season 6 Buffy where Angel took the lead in my affections. Not to say I don't love both, Angel is Alien and Buffy is Aliens, 9/10 and 10/10 respectively

Pangs

The Good;
The siege of Fort Giles and Buffy's cooking preparations are both excellent. Love Buffy's stetson hat and the Xander digging scene plus the Angel lurking scenes. Favourite though has to be the Scooby cavalry riding to the rescue.
The Bad;
In all the dodgy lessons I've learnt from Buffy perhaps the most disturbing is the idea that when threatened by the vengful spirit of a wronged Native American tribe the solution is to wipe them out entirely so you don't have to worry about them any more.

Best line;
Spike; "You won, alright? You came in and killed them and took their land....The history of the world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons and you massacred them. End of story". Of course Spike is a Victorian, the days when (as Blackadder the 4th put it) "You saw a bloke in a grass skirt you shot him and nicked his country"
Wheldon Cliches;

Character death;
The priest, the professor, the poor guy captured by the vamps. Buffy kills Hus.
Shot;
Buffy hit by an arrow as is Spike
Tied up;
Spike to the chair
Knocked out;
Women good/men bad;
Harmony smartens herself up and kicks Spike out, about time too! Whenever you get the die-hard Spikettes I always think they resemble Harmony a lot more than Buffy or Dru.
Jeez!;
The poor priest! Hung and has his ear cut off not to mention the professor having her throat slit. Spike considers pictures of famine victims funny, not suprising from a soulless vamp but amazed they left it in. Angel snapping the warrior's neck is also pretty cringeworthy.
Kinky dinky;
Anya get's turned on by Xander performing manual labour. Buffy comments that imaginary Xander is 'quite the machine' (she should talk!). Anya also likes the idea of playing nurse for Xander as indeed does Buffy for Riley later and for Angel in both seasons 2 and 3. Xander proposes sex with Anya at the end of the ep by commenting that his syphilis has cleared up. Buffy says she likes her men 'evil', in Get It Done we find out why.
Calling Captain Subtext;
Spike compares his inability to kill as akin to being neutered, do we need any more evidence that to vamps biting equals sex? Buffy observes that Xander looks quite Village People. Well, he's been a soldier, construction worker, cowboy, leather clad vamp and this ep is filled with native americans. Just sailor, and cop to go really?
Guantanamo Bay;
The Scoobies are quite prepared to let Spike broil
Scoobies to the ER;
Poor Xander getting syphilis amongst other diseases
Where's Dawn?
Presumably gone to Aunt Arlenes with Joyce. Arlene must be Joyce's sister rather than Hanks?
Questions and observations;
Xander has previously been working at Hot-Dog-on-a stick which is where Snyder suggested Buffy work in season 3. He gives the rest of the Scoobs freebies as will Buff at the DMP. Giles and Angel have put their differences behind them. Anya doesn't seem to have met Angel before despite them having been in the same room together in Dopplegangland and The Prom. Buffy seems to have inkling that Angel is near, her vamp sense or something stronger? Buffy comments how one person can make a difference, certainly Dopplegangland proves that. Asian Joe has obviously survived the events of Harsh Light of Day and is in the stands at the ceremony. Sunnydale has been around since 1812 so before the Mayor was around. Still plenty of Anya and Will tension. Why does Riley cam-up his face but not his neck? Xander refers to Anya as his girlfriend. Note the sign saying US Army over Angel's head when Riley is talking to Buffy. Hus rather reminds me of an old ep of the TV series Kolchak;The Night Stalker which apparently inspired the X-files. In fairness to Custer he was actually a lot more sympathectic to the Native Americans than most.
Marks out of 10; 9/10 I really like this one, perhaps one of the strongest of season 4

 

[Hush]

I just watched the Angel episode "forgiving" last night and holy **** was it awesome. Seeing Angel almost kill Wesley was amazing. I was just in awe of how things turned out. I can't believe Mr. Wyndham-Price allowed things to be.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

I just watched the Angel episode "forgiving" last night and holy **** was it awesome. Seeing Angel almost kill Wesley was amazing. I was just in awe of how things turned out. I can't believe Mr. Wyndham-Price allowed things to be.

In defence of Wes he was faced with an impossible situation where there was no easy way out, no good choice. Seeing Angel attack him though sure was a turn up for the books and no mistake!

The Bachelor Party
The Good; a lovely ep for Doyle adding a lot more depth to his character whilst providing some pretty gruesome comedy. Also like Doyle and Angel vetting CC's date, really gives them a sense of family.
The Bad; SUCH a shame we never see Harry again, that would have been terrific. Does she even know Doyle died?
Best line:
Cordy; "Doyle taught 3rd grade. The kind with children. Are you sure he wasn't just held back and that was his cover story?"
I also like Harry's aghast "Stripper! There was a stripper?"

Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Eating brains? Yuck! Would anyone really like Quails' tongues?
Apocalypses: 4
Angel Cliches
Damsel in distress; nope, 2.
Inverting the Hollywood cliche; friendly demons for the first time
In disguise; 2.
DB get's his shirt off; 2
Cordy's tatto;2
Cheap Angel; the first sign of Angel's notorious meaness as he refers to the resteraunt's suprisingly expensive windows

Fang Gang in bondage: Doyle in the box
Cordy: 5
Angel: 4
Wes: 1
Doyle; 1

Fang gang knocked out: Angel
Cordy: 8
Angel: 8
Wes: 1
Doyle; 1

Kills:
Cordy: none this ep. 3 vamps, ½ a demon from her time in Sunnydale
Angel: 2 vamps for Angel. So that gives Angel 10 vamps, 3 demons, 2 humans.
Doyle; 1 vamp
What happens to the female vamp at the nest? Does she just run away? Note Cordy actually bites the vamp who attacks her?

Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 1
Angel: 1

Alternate Fang Gang:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 4

Characters killed:
14
Total number of Angel Investigations:
3, Angel, Doyle and Cordy

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 5,
Packing Heat
Doyle; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Cordy has a date with Mr Armani but he doesn't even get a kiss
Cordy: 1?
Angel: 1;Buffy

Kinky dinky:
The stripper. Is she human or demon? Either way she wears WAAAYYYY too much eyeshadow. Also Harry has bought herself a a nightie for her honeymoon small enough to fit into a matchbox. The girls meanwhile play pornographic pictionary. Doyle asks if Buffy likes men with an Irish accent (has she ever met one?). Apparently the demon women have legs that can bend multipile ways and this is an aid in the sack?
Captain Subtext;
Doyle and Angel's charm seems to be gradually working on CC.
Know the face, different character;
2 Carlos Jacott who plays Richard was Ken in the Buffy ep Anne.
Parking garages;
2
Guantanamo Bay;
Questions and observations;
A good episode, fun and fleshing out the characters. Cordy refers to Xander as a fixer-upper. Our first set of friendly demons but not THAT friendly. It seems very much that demons in the Buffyverse are slowly being won over to the ways of humanity (ESPN). Some great heroism from Doyle and a very nice double act from Cordy and Harry. Despite Doyle's relating Angel's lifestory to him in City of Angels it seems he's never actually seen Buffy.
Marks out of 10; 6/10, good ep

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Just got the Michelle Tractenberg issue of Maxim and GOD-DAM! I think Eliza Dushku may have been replaced as the sexiest Scoobygirl. Buffy and Joyce's little girl really is all grown up and is just BEAUTIFUL!

Something Blue

The Good;
The ep to put joy into the hearts of Spuffers everywhere. Brilliantly funny with some emotional resonance with Willow and Xander and Anya's relationship taking a step forwards. Plus AMY! Nice little touches too like Giles' 'Kiss the librarian' mug
The Bad;
Some of the demons look a bit ropey. Why does Willow's spell on the other's work instantly but Giles only becomes progressively blind?
Best line;
Xander; "What? How? What?"
Giles; "3 excellent questions?"
Wheldon Cliches;

Character death;
Shot;
Tied up;
Spike chained in the bathtub
Knocked out;
Women good/men bad;
Buffy comments that her dad isn't too far away which means they're not estranged yet
Jeez!;
Anya says that she used to do spells to give men 'Boils on the penis'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kinky dinky;
Buffy teasing a chained up Spike with her neck. Plus naked Amy. Xander tells Anya to consider his lips the 'fruit roll ups of love'. Willow shakes her booty on the dancefloor. Willow comments on all the demons who are attracted to Xander. Buffy ponders her attraction to dark relationships? Xander pictures her in Raquel Welsh's bucksin bikini from 1 Million Year BC. D'Hoffryn strokes Will's face (he seems to consider his female demons akin to his daughters?)
Calling Captain Subtext;
Note it's Spike who notices that Willow is still in pain. Perhaps William the Bloody;sensitive poet isn't totally gone after all? Spike's 'little brother' jealousy of Angel is still evident. Riley helps out the UC Sunnydale Lesbian Alliance by hanging their banner up and tells Buffy that he's a lesbian (he wishes!). Willow agrees that Riley has good arms (another tick in the Bi box)
Guantanamo Bay;
Scoobies to the ER;
Where's Dawn?
Presumably returned with Buffy from visiting their dad in LA. Buffy doesn't seem to get around to telling Dawn and Joyce about her engagement.
Spike seems to cast aspersions on Joyce's naming of Buffy which is weird as he normally thinks the world of her.
Questions and observations;
Hugely funny, nice to see that Willow mourning her loss of Oz hasn't just been forgotten about. A step forwards for Spike and D'hoffryn back again. Buffy again refers to her not being the greatest driver. Willow still has the pics at the peir from season 3 of Buffy. Buffy kills one vamp and Xander drowns a demon. Buffy says that they may be into a forgetting spell later and indeed in season 6 they are.
Marks out of 10; 8/10

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

I will remember you
The Good;
Love the Oracles to bits, they're just wonderful. Some great fight scenes and pretty much a Bangler's dream come true.
The Bad;
If the demon can regenerate and make itself stronger through salt why doesn't it just do that all the time?
Best line:
Female Oracle; "I love time, there's so much of it, yet so little"

Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Apocalypses: 4
Angel Cliches
Damsel in distress; nope, 2.
Inverting the Hollywood cliche;
In disguise; 2.
DB get's his shirt off; 3 not only that but SMG licks ice-cream from his chest. Really is a Banglers' dream.
Cordy's tatto;2
Cheap Angel; According to CC he's too tight to hire a cleaning lady
Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 4
Wes: 1

Fang gang knocked out:
Cordy: 8
Angel: 7
Wes: 1
Doyle; 1

Kills:
Cordy: none this ep. 3 vamps, ½ a demon from her time in Sunnydale
Angel: 1 demon for Angel. So that gives Angel 8 vamps, 4 demons, 2 humans.

Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 1
Angel: 1

Alternate Fang Gang: human Angel
Cordy: 2
Angel: 5

Characters killed: two plant workers but then the day resets so no one
14

Total number of Angel Investigations:
3, Angel, Doyle and Cordy

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 5,
Packing heat;
Doyle; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Buffy and Angel for the second time and it goes a whole lot better than the first. Trouble is she'll never remember any of it.
Cordy: 1?
Angel: 1;Buffy

Kinky dinky:
Loads of Buffy/Angel action. Cordy comments that when they get 'all groiny' the world falls apart.
Captain Subtext;
Know the face, different character; 2
Parking garages;
2
Guantanamo Bay;
Buffy characters appearing in Angel; (unless someone can correct me no original Angel character ever appears on Buffy?)
5; Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy
Questions and observations;
Cordy's family used to have a cat as well as her pony. Buffy refers to her (and presumably Dawn?) visiting their dad in LA, the last positive reference to Hank Summers we'll ever have. The only time Doyle and Buffy meet. This eps gives us a useful way in which to make vamps human, much used in fanfic as is the reset day. Question is if a non-souled vamp was hit with Mohra demon blood would it be resouled?
Marks out of 10; 6/10, literally an ep that never happened?

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Hush
The Good;
Everything, it's all staggeringly brilliant. If I was to name a favourite scene it would be when Forrest and Riley are stuck in the lift about to be gassed, Riley's desperately trying to remember the overide code and Forrest holds up a piece of paper on which he's written 'C'mon! C'mon!', makes me laugh every time. Also love Gile's slideshow, the final battle and Olivia. The Gentlemen's applause.
The Bad;
Naught. Ok, when Spike get's his mug of blood from the fridge it's full up but then he takes a sip from it and it's almost empty
Best line;
Not the ep for that
Wheldon Cliches;

Character death;
At least 6 people have their hearts gorily cut out
Shot;
Tied up;
Spike to the chair
Knocked out;
Women good/men bad;
When Anya starts to complain about Xander's insensitivity towards her he comments "Boy you really did turn into a girl, didn't you?". Love Buffy's horrified reaction to Giles' drawing of her and her exasperated look as Riley smashes the wrong thing. The scene with the Wicca group, a bunch of 'wanna blessed be's' is hilarious(when the Charmed sisters did this they ended up dancing naked with them around the fire I recall? Shame we don't get that here). .
Jeez!;
The scene where the Gentlemen hold the guy down and slice his heart out, yeeesh! We don't actually see anything but Giles' slideshow doesn't leave much to the imagination. Also Spike's V sign to Xander. Buffy breaks guy's wrists and henchmens neck.
Kinky dinky;
The return of Olivia, Giles' 'orgasm friend'. Unfortunately this seems to be the end for them. Anya's crude hand gesture to Xander at the end, Xander seems to think that the Gentlemen are after 'boobies'. In fairness, everyone seems perplexed by Buffy's hand gesture. Spike says he doesn't want to be tied to a chair whilst Xander and Anya 'shag'.
Calling Captain Subtext;
And here's Tara. Personally I for one thought the subtext between her and Willow was evident right from the beginning, just the look on Willow's face at the end of their final scene together when she calls her 'special'. Xander thinks Spike would bite him as he's 'moist and delicious'. The awesome dream sequence is great, the little girl I think is quite obviously Buffy as a child. All very Nightmare on Elm Street. Remember reading a great fanfic where Buffy and Anya are killed by Freddy Kreuger but in the end he wakes up from his dream screaming, chained to his bed in the mental hospital he's been confined to since the night he got torched. But after the nurse sedates him she walks away and we discover she's actually Buffy.
Spike calls Giles a 'sissy'. Forrest says that he and Riley are 'pretty' and suggests Riley 'get with the kissing'. Giles hugs Willow.
Guantanamo Bay;
The Initiative/Town authorities cover up the Gentlemen's activities by declaring a laryngitis outbreak.
Scoobies to the ER;
Buffy get's stabbed with the scalpel but just seems to shrug it off.
Where's Dawn?
Quietly at home with Joyce
Questions and observations;
Just terrific, one of the Buffy eps that just sets the standard for all others, Joss at his finest. Isn't it a bit much though for Buffy to automatically assume she's the princess? Finally spotted Andy Hallet in the dream sequence, he's sitting two seats behind SMG with a dark haired girl sat in front of him. The little girl declares that you 'Can't call to mom', foretelling Joyce's death? Equally when Riley in the dream turns into a Gentleman is he revealing his hidden side?
Spike is now allowed to roam around loose. The Wicca group refer to the 'wolf at our side' which Oz used to be. Will makes good cookies so why should she be opposed to the bakesale? The clocktower scene is very Tim Burton right down to the music. Tara trips like a true horror heroine. Nice twist with Willow's door. Buffy kills 8 Gentlemen and one henchman. Pink Floyd are a Cambridge group whilst Giles went to Oxford.
Marks out of 10; 10/10

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Hero
The Good;
Actually I rated this ep pretty weak until the last 5 minutes when it then became spectacular. Cordy's advertisement idea and the one she films with Doyle are hilarious but ultimately incredibly poignant. Good scene too when the kid tells Doyle his Halloween story.
The Bad;
I didn't really dig the demons in peril storyline and I thought the Naiz allegory with The Scourge was a bit thick (nowadays they'd be the Taliban). Also they seem to accept Angel into their ranks a little too easily. Even their vehicles look Nazi-like and DB's hair looks very 1940s.
Best line:
Doyle; Is that it? Am I done?

Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Doyle's melting face
Apocalypses: 4
Angel Cliches (Cordy's ad is one big Angel cliche)
Damsel in distress; nope, 2.
Inverting the Hollywood cliche;
The sidekick sacrifices himself to save the day rather than the hero
In disguise; 3 as a Nazi/scourge
DB get's his shirt off; 3
Cordy's tatto;2
Cheap Angel; 2. Exactly what do all these people owe Angel money for?
Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 4
Wes: 1

Fang gang knocked out:
Cordy: 8
Angel: 7
Wes: 1
Doyle; 1

Kills:
Cordy: none this ep. 3 vamps, ½ a demon from her time in Sunnydale
Angel: 2 Scourge for Angel. So that gives Angel 8 vamps, 6 demons, 2 humans.
Doyle; 1 vamp

Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 1
Angel: 1

Alternate Fang Gang:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 5

Characters killed: the treacherous first mate so we won't count him
14
Recurring characters killed;
1; Goodbye Doyle

Total number of Angel Investigations:
2, Angel and Cordy

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 5,
Packing heat;
Doyle; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 1?
Angel: 1;Buffy

Kinky dinky:
The wonderfully named Big Randy.
Captain Subtext;
Doyle imagines Angel in tights.
Know the face, different character; 2
Parking garages;
2
Guantanamo Bay;
Buffy characters appearing in Angel; (unless someone can correct me no original Angel character ever appears on Buffy?)
5; Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy
Questions and observations;
So goodbye Doyle, we hardly knew you. A good ending for the character but all the more sad by Glenn Quinn's death shortly afterwards. Cordy refers to 'one of the cheaper Baldwins' in her description of the advert. I always thought Adam Baldwin was one but according to IMDB no he's not. Angel on a motorbike, Cordy drives a truck, is there no end to her talents? Once again we see demons who are slowly being won over to humanity. The Scourge are trying to stop this but are unwittingly aping human's themselves.
Marks out of 10; 7/10, a weak ep rescued by it's awesome finale

 

[ComicChick]

finally finished season 2 today. hadn't been able to watch in a while. and yay, Fred's finally on the show

 

[Hush]

Same here! except I'm on the end of Season 2. I was so glad her and Lorne essentially become regulars.

 

[Sawyer]

I dont get why they held off so damn long on making Lorne officially a regular. From season two on, he was almost always there.

 

[Hush]

Yeah does he ever make the damn Credits? I mean Fred did before he did and Lorne was in the show longer.

 

[ComicChick]

i watched the ep today when they're in Pylea and Lorne is beheaded and Cordy is sad cuz she thought he was dead. and i got sad cuz i remembered he is dead

 

[Sawyer]

Yeah does he ever make the damn Credits? I mean Fred did before he did and Lorne was in the show longer.

Yeah, around the halfway point of season 4. I have no idea why it took them so long. He was seriously in like every episode of S3.

i watched the ep today when they're in Pylea and Lorne is beheaded and Cordy is sad cuz she thought he was dead. and i got sad cuz i remembered he is dead

I know. I cant believe two main castmembers are gone.

 

[Hush]

It was sad but you'll get past it and Pylia gave us one of the best characters of all, Groo.

 

[Sawyer]

ComicChick was referring to the actor who plays him, Andy Hallet. He passed away a couple years ago.

 

[ComicChick]

yeah Lorne and Doyle both died in real life

 

[Hush]

I knew Doyle did but Andy Hallet passed? Really? Thats so terribly sad. I had actually hoped to meet him at a convention someday.