Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire

[lorenzovanmatte]

RESTLESS
The Good;
All of it, pretty damn wonderful. I especially like ASH's impersonation of a panicking theatre director, based on personal experience?
The Bad;
?
Best line;
Cheeseman; "I wear the cheese, it does not wear me"
Women good/men bad;
Dark haired Buffy's rant against Cowboy guy Riley
Jeez!;
The First Slayer scalping Giles
Kinky dinky;
Willow and Tara hooker up! How gorgeous is Joyce in her nightie? What a MILF! I never appreciated it until just this moment. About the weirdest fanfic I ever read concerned Willow having S&M sex with the cheese guy, him melting cheese over her nude body. Joss says that when Buffy rubs the mud over her face the idea was that she was being overwhelmed by her primal Slayer instincts but actually looks like she was having a facial. I'd say it looks more like she's a stripper/porn star (which she plays in Southland Tales) doing her 'tigress in heat' leer? Harmony in her milkmaid outfit is also very cute. The sign at the funfair vamp actually says 'I crack for a buck' but that's not what I thought it said first time I saw it.
Calling Captain Subtext;
ALL OF IT! Especially Willow and Tara in the sexiest scene you never saw but fervently imagined. What's the poem in Greek letters Willow is writing on Tara's back? By Sappho perhaps? (very Xena). And how lovely is Amber, such an unothordox beauty. Xander refers to Willow and Tara 'doing spells'. Hmmmm? Tara also tells Willow she doesn't know everything about her, her supposed demon side.
Check out dark-haired Buffy berating gun toting Riley over the death of Xander and the evil of men. Substitute Warren for Riley, DarkWillow for Buffy and Tara for Xander and you have the end of season 6. Riley has often been compared to Gary Cooper and here he's a cowboy. Of course the irony is that Gary Cooper despite his wholesome image was a notorious womaniser and Riley will go to his vamp****es in season 5. The scene with Adam and Riley and the gun between them also refers to Warren and Tara. Adam challenges Buffy that she has demon essence in her which we'll find in out in 'Get it done'. Riley leaves, Joss already thinking about him going.
Spike's sideshow freak appearance is indicative of his role in later seasons, vampire in love with the Slayer and then vamp with soul, sacrificial lamb in the end. The scenes with Spike and Giles on the swings seem to suggest that Spike will fufill the role of Giles to Buffy once Giles leaves again for the UK, her 'daddy' figure. You wonder what might have happened if Giles had hung around in season 6? Guffy? Their conversation also portends to the Loan Shark from Tabula Rusa (and Angel Season 6) The clock reads 730 which is the same as in Graduation Day pt2, counting down to Dawn and Dawn is the kitten (as she was the cat in Faith and Buffy's dream in GDpt2).
Buffy refers to Xander as big brother, wonderful and loving but not sexual. In fact Buffy is the one girl Xander never thinks about sexually in his dream. He says 'it get's better' and indeed it does for him, he's not left behind by his friends as he fears. Although Xuffers still hold out for something to happen in season 8 (and given Buffy's fantasy in issue 2 maybe they still have a point?). Anya talks about getting back into vengence which she will in seasons 6/7. Xander's dad is not the same actor we meet in season 6, he rather reminds me of an angry version of Willy the snitch.
Buffy refers to being a fireman which portends to 'Once more with feeling'. We see Willow having a fit on a sofa and Buffy saying 'I can fight this thing' portending to Joyce dying on the couch and Buffy's inability to fight a disease despite all her Slayer powers. We later see Joyce entombed in the wall with Buffy leaving her behind to go on with her friends. And her little sis.
Giles tells Buffy 'it's been like this between men and women since the beginning' but she rejects that, she won't play the Shadowmen's/Councils game as we see from her rejection of the First Slayer's values, that the First Slayer is not 'the source of me'. Note the vamp at the funfair is 'Drac'. In Spike's tomb Buffy is gone with Olivia weeping over an empty pram, portending Giles' leaving a Buffy who no longer needs his guidance.
Guantanamo Bay;
Riley and Adam plotting world domination because "We're the goverment baby, it's what we do".
Scoobies to the ER;
Where's Dawn?
Missing scenes;
Apocalypses; 5,
Wheldon Cliches (with kind permission from Boo)

Scoobies in bondage: Xander tied in his confrontation with Snyder (amazingly unless someone can correct me his first time?).
Buffy: 8
Giles: 4
Cordy: 5
Will: 3
Jenny: 1
Angel: 4
Oz: 1
Faith: 3
Joyce: 1
Wes: 1
Xander; 1

Scoobies knocked out:
Buffy: 15
Giles: 10
Cordy: 6
Xander: 8
Will: 5
Jenny: 2
Angel: 6
Oz: 3
Faith: 1
Joyce: 2
Wes: 1
Kills:
Buffy: 79 vamps, 28 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot
Giles: 5 vamps, 1 demon
Cordy: 3 vamps, ½ a demon
Will: 4 vamps
Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human
Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie
Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans
Xander: 5 vamps, 2 zombies, ½ a demon, ½ a demon
Anya: ½ a demon
Riley; 12 vamps + 7 demons

Scoobies go evil:
Giles: 1
Cordy: 1
Will: 2
Jenny: 1
Angel: 1
Oz: 1
Joyce: 1
Xander: 2

Alternate scoobies:
Buffy: 6
Giles: 3
Cordy: 1
Will: 2
Jenny: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 2
Joyce: 2
Xander: 3

Recurring characters killed: 10, no but wonderful to see Snyder back again, Armin Shimmerman giving a terrific performance as a much thinner Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now
Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara

Total number of scoobies: 7
Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Tara, Riley

Xander demon magnet: 5
Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?)

Scoobies shot:
Giles: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 4

Notches on Scooby bedpost:
Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny
Cordy: 1?
Buffy: 3; Angel, Parker, Riley
Angel: 1;Buffy
Joyce: 1;Giles, possibly Ted
Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca
Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley
Xander: 2; Faith, Anya
Willow: 2;Oz and Tara
Questions and observations;
How lovely to see season 1 Willow again, she's just so cute. In case you didn't know the Bay of Pigs was the ill-fated CIA backed invasion of Castro's Cuba by anti-communist exiles. Will also refers to her experience of stagefright in 'Nightmares'. Once again great to see Oz back, the last appearance of him in the show and for Olivia too. Once again Buffy triumphs because she is the unconventional Slayer, she's more than just the Slayer, she lives in the world too. No matter how many times I watch this I can never tell, is it Tara or Anya in bed telling Buffy she has to wake up?
Asian Joe sitting behind Oz in class, great to see him again. The clip they watch of Apocalypse Now isn't much like the film, sounds more like Hamburger Hill. After hearing Joss commentary I duly looked up Twin Peaks on IMDB and Wiki and it was a supernatural detective show Kyle Machaclan made before Desperate Housewives but I'm still none the wiser as to what the significance of the red curtains is?
Marks out of 10; 10/10, no trouble.

Rumours about season 5;

I heard a load of rumours about plotlines in season 5, more than any other year of the show. In no particular order;
1) Xander would turn out to be Glory or one of the other Hellgods from her dimension, Willow would turn evil and be the one to bleed Dawn
2) Dawn would touch Joyce's corpse at the end of The Body and bring her back to life with her Key powers
3) Faith would be released from jail and end up sacrificing herself to save Buffy in the final battle with Glory
4) Drusilla/Dracula would seduce Buffy who'd then allow herself to be sired. VampBuffy would then be the big bad for the season with Faith leading the Scoobies against her and her undead anti-Scoobies. In the season finale VampBuffy would taste Dawn's blood and be restored to normal by The Key's power.
5) Spike falling in love with Buffy and then siring her because he thinks that's the only way to make her love him. In the end he realises he doesn't love unsouled Buffy so uses magic to turn her back to normal.
6) Buffy and Xander get zapped by some demon and he gets her powers. She has to adapt to being ordinary whilst he revels in being a superhero but starts to lose control which is why the Slayer is always a girl.
7) Xander and Buffy would end up in Caritas singing karoke to get some guidance ('Wind beneath my wings'?)
8) Angel Investigations would show up for the final battle with Glory in Sunnydale along with Riley and Oz.

Now you can see how some of these ideas worked out. Ben rather than Xander is Glory whilst Willow will go evil and threaten Dawn in season 6. Rather than bring Joyce back to life Dawn gives Buffy the will to live in season 6. Faith will be released from jail to hunt Angelus on Angel season 4, Buffy will be the one who sacrifices herself. The Dru-sires-Buffy scenario sounds like a dark- slasher's fantasy but has elements of Buffy-vs-Dracula and Riley and his vamp****es. Dru actually sires Darla instead, Dawn's blood will play a major role in the season 5 finale and Buffy will turn temporarily against her friends in Normal Again. Faith will defeat Angelus by getting him to taste her blood in season 4 of Angel. Spike will fall in love with Buffy but get's his own soul back rather than take her's away. The Xander gets Buffy's powers idea becomes The Replacement, we find out in season 7 why the Slayer is female whilst Riley will return in season 6.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

BLIND DATE

The Good;

Lindsay's dilemma and Angel's solution to it. The final battle. Best of all though has to be Gunn's entrance to WR&H, one day he'll have a very different persepctive. The mind-reader line up is also a winner.

The Bad;

Would WR&H really be so forgiving of Lindsey?

Best line:

Cordy; "Are you telling me self-mutilating psycho assassin chick reached enlightenment?"

Jeez, how did they get away with that?

Angel shows remarkably little sympathy for Lindsey's story of his dead sibling but then he was from an age where most kids didn't make it out of infancy. Killing Lee is horrible, scumbag though he is, even Lilah has a horrified reaction to it, suggesting the woman beneath the mask.

Apocalypses: 4

Angel Cliches

Damsel in distress;

Inverting the Hollywood cliche; In every other genre handicapped people are inspirational, of course in the Jossverse they're EVIL!

In disguise; 4

DB get's his shirt off; 7

Cordy's tattoo;3

Cheap Angel;

4

Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 8
Wes: 2

Fang gang knocked out:
Cordy: 9
Angel: 10
Wes: 4
Doyle; 1


Kills:
Cordy: 3 vamps, 1½ demons
Angel: 2 vamps and one human so 16 vamps, 10 and 1/2 demons, 3 humans.
Doyle; 1 vamp

Wes; 1/2 a demon

Kate; 3 vamps

Faith; 16 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.

Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 2

Alternate Fang Gang:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 6

Characters killed:

25

Recurring characters killed; byebye Lee although he's evil so screw him

2;


Total number of Angel Investigations:
3, Angel and Cordy and Wes

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 8,

Packing heat;

Wes; 2

Doyle; 1

Angel; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 2 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast
Angel: 1;Buffy

Kinky dinky:

Lee asks Lindsey does he find the assassin sexy, you get the impression they both do

Captain Subtext;

Holland really does treat Lindsey like he's his son or something.

Know the face, different character; 2

Parking garages;

4,

Guantanamo Bay;

Buffy characters on Angel; 11, Cordy talks to Willow here but we don't see her. She says hello to Wes, AH and AD having just married

Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla

Questions and observations;

Vanessa Brewer is actually played by CC's stunt double, always nice when that happens (LL's stunt double on Xena would go on to play a recurring characters in the show). This also marks the entrance of the great Sam Anderson as Holland. Angel kills another human and has very little remorse about doing so, very different from Buffy. The scroll refers to the 'vampire with the soul', obstensibly Angel but by season 5 maybe Spike too?

Marks out of 10; 8/10, good ep

 

[Hush]

Well I only have 2 episodes left of Angel, me and m'lady will prolly watch them tonight. I'm excited to see the end for the first time but I'm also sad that this amazing show is ending. It really hit it's stride and just got cut short because some stupid executive was shortsided and thats annoying but oh well i'll just live with it.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Well I only have 2 episodes left of Angel, me and m'lady will prolly watch them tonight. I'm excited to see the end for the first time but I'm also sad that this amazing show is ending. It really hit it's stride and just got cut short because some stupid executive was shortsided and thats annoying but oh well i'll just live with it.

What did you think of You're Welcome? (which is what I was referring to so many posts ago)

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Well I only have 2 episodes left of Angel, me and m'lady will prolly watch them tonight. I'm excited to see the end for the first time but I'm also sad that this amazing show is ending. It really hit it's stride and just got cut short because some stupid executive was shortsided and thats annoying but oh well i'll just live with it.

TV executives logic is not like our logic! Just as the cast and crew of Dark Skies, Space; A&B, Tru Calling, Dollhouse, Firefly etc

As for You're Welcome, not a dry eye in the house


BUFFY VS DRACULA
The Good;
Lots of it, Buffy vs the dark prince (bator!). If I was to pick out a special performance it would be NB's excellent Renfield especially his wonderful Sesame Street impression.
The Bad;
?
Best line;
Buffy; "I'm standing right here!"
Women good/men bad;
Buffy rejects Dracula's male domination.
Jeez!;
The killing of the delivery men is vicious but it's there to remind you that Dracula isn't all slow seduction, he's as evil as any other vamp
Kinky dinky;
The whole thing is one big seduction of Buffy by Dracula. Also of course Giles 'making time with the Draccy babes' as Riley memorably puts it and seems to enjoy a good nuzzling. And Dracula and Joyce? Those Summer's girls, they have the worst taste in men. Anya's bikini is also a highlight, odd that the rest of the Scoobygirls are pretty covered up at the beach. Check out the sexy nightie Buffy just happens to choose to sleep in that night, makes her look like the heroine in a classic Hammer vampire film. Does she subconsciously choose it as she wants to please Dracula, hoping he'll come to her? Buffy tries to reassure Riley that Drac has no attraction for her but her declaration that there was 'no penetration' is a poor way to put it. She also says that she can't go back to Revello Drive as 'He got inside once', she means the house right? Unusually it's Riley who figures out Buffy is enthralled. Buffy seems to prefer being bitten and controlled to biting and feeding/being evil suggesting that when it comes to S&M she's more into the M than the S. If you like that sort of thing and you're over 18; http://www.taboostudios.com/taboomain.html
Captain Subtext;
Joyce bemoans the perils of dating in Sunnydale and tells Will and Tara she feels like giving up on men altogether (Jowillta anyone?). She seems unaware of their relationship although this might change in The Real Me which we'll talk about then. Joyce seems lonely with Buffy at college but she'll soon have Dawn to cure that. Willow and Tara just advise her to avoid pale-skinned men in capes. Oddly Willow seems extremely attracted to Dracula 'Long slow neckbites that last for days' which perturbs Tara rather and adds to the bi-Willow theory (and the 'very naughty girl behind the softer side of Sears theory'). Xander comments that everyone knows about Willow and Tara but would still like to hear more about their love life. The first of the Riley/Spike bonding, Spike refers to Riley as 'cowboy' which he was in Restless. .
Xander refers to himself as Dracula's 'man-*****' and this is a homosexual subtext that is greatly expanded upon in the comics.
Guantanamo Bay;
Scoobies to the ER;
Where's Dawn?
Here's Dawn! When you're accustomed to seeing MT on 'Gossip Girl' and '17 Again' and in the pages of Maxim you forget how young she was when she started on Buffy, I remember seeing her for the first time and thinking "Oh, it's Harriet the Spy" which was one of my favourite books when I was younger and I quite liked the movie too. Oddly enough the first time Buffy finds her she's snooping about in her room.
Missing scenes;
Rumoured-Dracula "You are born of the darkness"
Buffy; "Whoa, not born of the darkness pal, born of the Joyce thank you very much"
Apocalypses; 5,
Wheldon Cliches (with kind permission from Boo)

Scoobies in bondage:
Buffy: 8
Giles: 4
Cordy: 5
Will: 3
Jenny: 1
Angel: 4
Oz: 1
Faith: 3
Joyce: 1
Wes: 1
Xander; 1

Scoobies knocked out: Anya and Xander
Buffy: 15
Giles: 10
Cordy: 6
Xander: 9
Will: 5
Jenny: 2
Angel: 6
Oz: 3
Faith: 1
Joyce: 2
Wes: 1
Anya; 1
Kills:
Buffy: not including Dracula Buffy kills 2 vamps so 81 vamps, 28 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot
Giles: 5 vamps, 1 demon
Cordy: 3 vamps, ½ a demon
Will: 4 vamps
Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human
Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie
Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans
Xander: 5 vamps, 2 zombies, ½ a demon, ½ a demon
Anya: ½ a demon
Riley; 12 vamps + 7 demons

Scoobies go evil: Xander falls under the thrall of his master
Giles: 1
Cordy: 1
Will: 2
Jenny: 1
Angel: 1
Oz: 1
Joyce: 1
Xander: 3

Alternate scoobies: Renfield Xander
Buffy: 6
Giles: 3
Cordy: 1
Will: 2
Jenny: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 2
Joyce: 2
Xander: 4

Recurring characters killed: 9
Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara

Sunnydale deaths;
82; including the delivery men

Total number of scoobies: 7
Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Tara, Riley

Xander demon magnet: 5, ummm, should we add Dracula?
Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot:
Giles: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 4

Notches on Scooby bedpost: now I know we've always wondered exactly what happens between Buffy and Dracula when the screen goes dark so I'm going to put him down as a possible? But you know, what I've always wondered is does anything happen between Dracula and Joyce? We do know that Anya and Dracula used to be involved in her demon days.
Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes?
Cordy: 1?
Buffy: 3 confirmed; Angel, Parker,Riley, 1 possible, Dracula(?)
Angel: 1;Buffy
Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?)
Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca
Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley
Xander: 2; Faith, Anya
Willow: 2;Oz and Tara
What the fanficcers thought; Plenty of Buffy/Dracula sex stories. Also Buffy/Drusilla http://buffy.adultfanfiction.net/story.php?no=16702
http://buffy.adultfanfiction.net/story.php?no=600031094 (over 18s ONLY!)
If you are 18+ and like the idea of the Buffygirls having sex with vamps/demons etc http://www.taboostudios.com/slayer.html
Questions and observations;
Very interesting. Once again Buffy rejects the traditional role of the horror heroine and be seduced into being a vampire by Dracula. But is there something between them? Maybe. But again it's Buffy's family and friends that anchor her, the traditional Slayer without love in her life might well have surrendered. But Buffy is about saving rather than the kill despite her feral hunting.
Jelly doughnuts again, nice little gag when Riley offers it to Buffy. This is the third time Buffy will have been bitten by a vampire. Dracula notes the previous bitemarks, The Master's or Angel's? Riley observes that no one in Sunnydale seems to have noticed this big castle just outside of town. Buffy mocks Anne Rice for the second time, such a pity they never have a chance to knock Twilight. Reputedly Dracula was going to be played by Freddie Prince (aka Mr SMG) but he dropped out. As with Adam, Dracula hints to The Slayer's demonic nature which we will discover in 'Get It Done'. We have hints that Xander is going to make moves to get out of the cellar. Dracula has the same powers as he has in the book which make him far superior to the average vamp.
So what if Buffy had surrendered to Dracula or Drusilla or whoever? Would a vamped Slayer be evil? Or would they still be the Slayer no matter what? What would feasting on Slayer blood do to the vamp, is Spike's unusually human nature due to him feeding on the Chinise Slayer? Lot of fanfic on the subject and all with a happy ending, most based on the internet rumour that in season 5 Buffy would be vamped and form her own undead Scoobygang whilst Faith would be released from jail to lead the Scoobs against her. Eventually Buffy would either have her soul restored by sorcery (like Angel) or bite Dawn and be returned to normal by The Key's magic blood.
Buffy is apparently very famous in the supernatural world, the most successful Slayer ever. Love to see Spike and Drac's backstory? Riley says that he's lived in Sunnydale for a couple of years now so that probably means the Initiative were up and around at very least throughout season 3.

Marks out of 10; 9/10

 

[Charlie Boy]

Well I only have 2 episodes left of Angel, me and m'lady will prolly watch them tonight. I'm excited to see the end for the first time but I'm also sad that this amazing show is ending. It really hit it's stride and just got cut short because some stupid executive was shortsided and thats annoying but oh well i'll just live with it.

Also, who do you think is more worthy of the Shasnshu Prophesy? Spike who sought out his soul, fought for his redemption and became a champion in his own right. Or Angel, who was cursed with a soul...Twice. Has sacrificed his own happiness as well as loved ones for the greater good.

 

[Hush]

What did you think of You're Welcome? (which is what I was referring to so many posts ago)

Would I be seen as less of man if I said I kinda teared up? God that was just Heart Wrenching watching him answer that Phone and then knowing that she was Gone. It was a perfect ending for that character though and honestly I don't know how much mroe perfect it could have been and if she had stayed she would have just been in place of Harmony I think.

Also, who do you think is more worthy of the Shasnshu Prophesy? Spike who sought out his soul, fought for his redemption and became a champion in his own right. Or Angel, who was cursed with a soul...Twice. Has sacrificed his own happiness as well as loved ones for the greater good.

Angel hands down. I mean yeah Spike is more or less good now but really Angel said it best "I have dealt with everything I ever did as Angelus for 200 plus years and you spent 3 weeks crying in a basement!" Spike to me got his soul to try and impress a Girl and at the end of the day that isn't Nobel but selfish and not what a Champion should be.

 

[Charlie Boy]

True, but Spike also did a lot of good after his chip had burned out and before he ever acquired his soul. And while I agree a lot of things Spike did was to impress Buffy, ultimately he began to care about the other people around him as well.

Soulless, Angel is Angelus. Evil incarnate. Spike without a soul is still hero. Albeit a shady one, but still a hero.

 

[Hush]

Yeah but I think that boils down to Angelus is the Demon and Angel is the human. According to Buffyverse Lore a Demon takes over the body of a Human when they are turned by a Vampire and the soul is removed from the body. By following this logic we come to the conclusion that Angel uses his unfortunate situation to make the world a better place and atone for his sins.

Spike is written totally different because we see what he is like pre-vamp and then he becomes a Vamp and you can see how the Demon uses his body but he still acts similarly or never even really reverts to anything when he gets his soul. He is still selfish and in it only for himself, yeah he is a good guy but that is more because he knows he cannot kill because it willl burden him now that he has a soul. I would say that Spike does care about people which is most evident with Dawn and Fred but that doesn't really mean that he is now a Hero to the level Angel is.

I just don't see spike as a champion but I do with Angel. Ecspecially when you think about how much longer Angel has been on the side of good.

 

[Primal Slayer]

A lot of people (me including) think that if Spike never got chipped then he never wouldve turned "good" it was the 21st century version of a soul for him.

 

[Hush]

Well I just finished up the last episode of Angel like 5 minutes ago and I must say that the particular exec who canceled this show was an absolute moron. I think I cannot pick which show is better but that they both were better at something that the other one wasn't. So just out of curiosity where do I start for Angel comics?

 

[Charlie Boy]

Well I just finished up the last episode of Angel like 5 minutes ago and I must say that the particular exec who canceled this show was an absolute moron. I think I cannot pick which show is better but that they both were better at something that the other one wasn't. So just out of curiosity where do I start for Angel comics?

Right about now would be a good time to start with Angel comics since they're going back to Dark Horse. But if you wanna read back issues, I'd say start at the beginning since you just finished season 5. The tpb should be relatively cheap on Amazon or E-bay.

A lot of people (me including) think that if Spike never got chipped then he never wouldve turned "good" it was the 21st century version of a soul for him.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Considering the chip burned out after some time, he was still there, willing to help. I'll concede that Spike is more of an anti-hero, than an outright knight in shinning armor type that Angel is.

 

[flickchick85]

What really sucks is that Angel really is doing good with one-off episodes in Season 5 and unfortunately this is the end. I mean you have an Arc but you could watch all these episodes by themselves and just enjoy them, it really got back to the basics of Angel Inc only with Angel Inc being Wolfram and Hart.

That's true, the last season of Angel kind of had more of the Buffy spirit with the classic individual episodes and a less dominating arc. Angel S5 is one of my favorite seasons of either show. And its finale blew Buffy's outta the water, imo.

 

[Hush]

Oh I love Buffy's finale but I feel Angels is better because by this time you know that Angel will do everything at all costs and its basically fight or die. In Buffy's there is a sense of finality in that you know there is nothing left to do with the show from that point on. The hellmouth is sealed up and Sunnydale is gone, game set match. With Angel you see the armies and minions comming at them and they all stand and you hear gun say "I'll take the 30,000 on the left." and you just never find out if they live, if this is as far as your going with the mythology, and that is what makes Angel better to me because the viewer has to come up with the answer.

 

[Charlie Boy]

Yeah, I loved Angel's finale. That group of heroes will always be fighting, and from day one that was clear. As long as there's good, there will be evil, there will be a battle.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Yeah, Buffy and Angel have very different endings, I like Buffy's better because it gives our heroes the happy ending (for the most part) which they deserve. By contrast Angel and Spike are still trying to make things right so it's better that it's left open-ended.
As for Spike I don't think the chip was any replacement for a soul. It forces Spike to live in the human world during which he falls in love with Buffy and her love redeems him and makes him win his soul back. But the chip in itself doesn't make him good. When he thinks it's not working he goes out and tries to kill the first girl he finds, helps Dru kill the young couple at the Bronze and tries to rape Buffy. Spike without his soul can NEVER be good.
Once he has the soul however all bets are off, he recovers quicker than Angel did because he's been living with humanity for years and has the help of the scoobies. Whether he or Angel is the subject of the Shanshu property is still an open question?

TO SHANSHU IN LA
The Good;
My all time favourite moment in Angel is when he walks up to Lindsey clutching his stump, the music swells and Angel looks on him with ******all sympathy. Such a powerful scene, you realise how much Angel loves Cordy in that moment and would fight his way to hell on her behalf. CCs acting as stricken Cordy is also great and love the doughnut scene. And THAT ending!
The Bad;
Gunn's prescence seems a bit shoe-horned in, they're obviously thinking about making him a regular. Same for David Nabbit. Kate seems to want to make Angel hang around to make a statement which is weird as she's prepared to let him just walk away the rest of the time.
Best line:
"Don't believe everything your foretold, Lindsey" (why doesn't he just kick him in the head whilst he's at it?)
Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Severed hands. Voca's mask. Angel is also quite brutal with Kate. Lilah mentions a past WR&H employee who was made to eat his own liver as pennance for failing the senior partners.
Apocalypses: 4
Angel Cliches
Damsel in distress; 15,
Inverting the Hollywood cliche;
In disguise; 4
DB get's his shirt off; 7
Cordy's tattoo;3
Cheap Angel;
4
Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 8
Wes: 2

Fang gang knocked out: Wes by the explosion
Cordy: 9
Angel: 10
Wes: 5
Doyle; 1
Kills:
Cordy: 3 vamps, 1½ demons
Angel; 2 demons so 16 vamps, 12 and 1/2 demons, 3 humans
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 1/2 a demon
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 16 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 2

Alternate Fang Gang:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 6

Characters killed:
25
Recurring characters killed; bye-bye the Oracles which is a shame as I liked them, I didn't think they COULD be killed
4;
Total number of Angel Investigations:
3, Angel and Cordy and Wes

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 8,
Packing heat;
Wes; 2
Doyle; 1
Angel; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 2 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast
Angel: 1;Buffy

Kinky dinky:
Naked Darla in a box, bet you can't order that on Amazon!
Captain Subtext;
Know the face, different character; 2
Parking garages;
4,
Guantanamo Bay;
Buffy characters on Angel; 11
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla
Questions and observations;
Wes once again makes a biblical reference which Watcher's are wont to do. The promise of great things to come, Darla in the box. Interestingly you can bring a vamp back from the dead as they attempted to do in 'When she was bad', a technique often used in fanfic for bringing back Angel and souled-Spike if they've been killed in a story. Cordy refers to 'The old me' indicating personal growth. Of course we assume the 'Vamp with a soul' is Angel but it could just as easily be season 5 Spike?
Marks out of 10; 9/10, very good ep with my all time favourite Angel scene.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

THE REAL ME

The Good;
A great tribute to writers and cast that Dawn really does seem to fit right in, as though she's always been there. Harmony also gets a chance to shine and I do love the silent ballet of breakfast in the Summer's house.
The Bad;
Nothing bad, just not as good as some other eps.
Best line;
Dawn; "I could totally save the world if someone handed me superpowers" (one day Dawnie, one day)
also like;
Xander; "Is that Brad Konig? Not so tough now as when you were beating up kids in gym class?"
Brad (giving him the finger) "Screw you Harris!"-High school's over, Brad's a vampire but some things never change.
Women good/men bad; Harmony accuses Xander of being a hair puller and 'a big girl'. On the plus side she tells Spike to drop dead.
Jeez!;
The murder of another magic shop owner, not a sight Dawn should see. Also the sight of poor Dawn terrified by the insane guy is upsetting.
Kinky dinky;
Dawn has a crush on Xander and wears a dress very reminiscent of the one Kate wore in 'Sense and Sensitivity'. Buffy's backless top is also worthy of note. One of Harmony's gang asks her when they're going to 'do it'? Harmony is appalled, odd she wasn't that bashful with Spike. Another of her gang is considered 'sire-whipped' but one presumes not literally so? Dawn thinks that the Slayer should wear a cool costume Wonder Woman style, if only! (I think my favourite Calvin and Hobbes joke is where Calvin writes in his school report that his mother puts on a patriotic leotard, cape and thigh boots and fights crime in her spare time. "Wow, show me that outfit some time!" remarks his dad). Riley claims that saying to parents "I'm here to violate your first born" never goes down well (unless your parents are Satanists or something?). Buffy likes George Clooney who was 40 at this stage, once again showing her penchant for older men.
Captain Subtext;
Dawn resents Anya because she has Xander. She once confessed to Joyce that she'd like Tara and Willow to teach her the things they do together whereupon Joyce got 'very quiet' and made her go upstairs (Dawillta?). Now in last weeks ep Joyce didn't seem to know about them so has Dawn actually changed the past rather than just everyone's memories? Tara's little guilty look when Willow tells her she's one of the good guys is priceless. Xander refers to his 'master' Dracula and Riley is still a little jealous of Buffy's lingering attraction to him. Spike refers to Buffy as a dish. Buffy also expresses her wish to still curl up in Joyce's lap (as she did in Innocence), still revelling in maternal love and jealous of little sis Dawn getting all the attention from Joyce.
Guantanamo Bay;
Spike gets another Buffybeating
Scoobies to the ER;
Poor Anya get's bashed up.
Missing scenes;
Apocalypses; 5,
Wheldon Cliches (with kind permission from Boo)

Scoobies in bondage: Dawn is in the show 5 minutes and is already chained to the wall. Although she won't officially join for at least another season she has all the makings of a Scooby right there.
Buffy: 8
Giles: 4
Cordy: 5
Will: 3
Jenny: 1
Angel: 4
Oz: 1
Faith: 3
Joyce: 1
Wes: 1
Xander; 1
Dawn; 1

Scoobies knocked out: Anya
Buffy: 15
Giles: 10
Cordy: 6
Xander: 8
Will: 5
Jenny: 2
Angel: 6
Oz: 3
Faith: 1
Joyce: 2
Wes: 1
Anya;1
Kills:
Buffy: 4 more vamps for Buffy so 85 vamps, 28 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot
Giles: 5 vamps, 1 demon
Cordy: 3 vamps, ½ a demon
Will: 4 vamps
Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human
Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie
Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans
Xander: 5 vamps, 2 zombies, ½ a demon, ½ a demon
Anya: ½ a demon
Riley; 12 vamps + 7 demons

Scoobies go evil:
Giles: 1
Cordy: 1
Will: 2
Jenny: 1
Angel: 1
Oz: 1
Joyce: 1
Xander: 3

Alternate scoobies:
Buffy: 6
Giles: 3
Cordy: 1
Will: 2
Jenny: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 2
Joyce: 2
Xander: 3

Recurring characters killed: 9
Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara

Sunnydale deaths; the Magic Shop owner. The vamps also have a census taker hostage (Silence of the Lambs?) but maybe Buffy rescued him?
83;

Total number of scoobies: 7
Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Tara, Riley

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?)
Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot:
Giles: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 4

Notches on Scooby bedpost:
Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes?
Cordy: 1?
Buffy: 3 confirmed; Angel, Parker,Riley, 1 possible, Dracula(?)
Angel: 1;Buffy
Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?)
Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca
Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley
Xander: 2; Faith, Anya
Willow: 2;Oz and Tara
Questions and observations;
The great introduction for Dawn, at this stage we have no idea what she is and we don't know if she has any idea either. MT is so cute, she's just adorable, no wonder she made so much money from advertisements. Her top makes her look like one of the science officers from Star Trek. And the love between Joyce, Buffy and Dawn is terrific, so palpable yet not too twee, comes across as realistic rather than OTT Hollywood ideal family. We also here have a radical shift in how Willow and Tara dress, they look like they're going to some sort of folk festival or something. And Harmony once again proves her comedy value. Tom Lenk who'll eventually play Andrew appears here as an unnamed vamp. Again, would the Scoobies know what Spinal Tap was? (I had to look it up). Once again Will finds the dead body. Why don't the vamps just set fire to Buffy's house? Although it makes sense for the vamps to keep Dawn alive so that they have a hostage if things go wrong. Dawn portends that Buffy doesn't know who she is, we don't know at this stage if Dawn is aware of what she is? Surely unicorns are a symbol of good? Interesting commentary that SMG finds it hard to laugh on cue?
Marks out of 10; 7/10

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

JUDGEMENT
The Good;
Jousting in LA, even in Tinseltown that must be a rare enough sight.
The Bad;
A fairly slow opener for a season that will eventually start firing on all cylinders
Best line:
Jeez, how did they get away with that?
The demon who sings at Caritas is 'Gorshak the Child-eater'? His pick is 'Achy breaky heart' (I'm not sure which is worse?)
Apocalypses: 4
Angel Cliches
Damsel in distress; 16, yep, she sure is
Inverting the Hollywood cliche;
Angel the hero actually kills the damsel in distress' protector by accident
In disguise; 4
DB get's his shirt off; 7
Cordy's tattoo;3
Cheap Angel;
4
Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 8
Wes: 2

Fang gang knocked out:
Cordy: 9
Angel: 10
Wes: 5
Doyle; 1
Kills:
Cordy: 3 vamps, 1½ demons
Angel; 4 demons for Angel so 16 vamps, 16 and 1/2 demons, 3 humans
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 1/2 a demon
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 16 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; one more vamp so 4 in all.
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 2

Alternate Fang Gang:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 6

Characters killed:
25
Recurring characters killed;
4;
Total number of Angel Investigations:
3, Angel and Cordy and Wes

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 8,
Packing heat;
Wes; 2
Doyle; 1
Angel; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 2 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast
Angel: 1;Buffy

Kinky dinky:
Wes seems to attract the attention of a beautiful girl in a bar. The first hints of the love affair between Lindsey and Darla.
Captain Subtext;
From the beginning a very flirtatious relationship between Lorne and Angel. Gunn comments that he's seen Wes before in bed which Wes takes a lot of exception to. Cordy points out that if Angel joins a gym he'll have to shower with naked men but he says he'll always be a loner.
Know the face, different character; 2
Parking garages;
4,
Guantanamo Bay;
Angel beats up Merl and kills an innocent
Buffy characters on Angel; 11
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla
Questions and observations;
The Introduction of Lorne for the first time, no sign yet that he'll become such an important character. Pretty obvious he's inspired by Barney from Parting Gifts. Angel Investigations have been busy over the summer with at least 6 cases according the whiteboard. First appearance of Merl and first meeting of Gunn, Cordy and Wes. Wonderful to see Angel visit Faith, such a lovely touch. So what happens to the mother and child? Often in fanfic whatever goes wrong in the Buffyverse that kid turns up to set it right. When Angel meets Gunn he inquires after his health as Gunn said he should in Blind Date. Jo is played by Justina Machado who played Rico's wife in the wonderful Six Foot Under, a show that not only guest starred Michelle Tractenberg and Eric Balfour (Jesse) but at one point her characters' actress sister appears to be guest-starring on Angel (or possibly Charmed?)
Marks out of 10; 6/10, the opening and ending are probably better than the rest of the ep

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

THE REPLACEMENT
The Good;
Great performance from NB in both roles, you wish you'd had more Xander eps in later seasons but instead he get's squeezed out by the girls. Worth it for the snoopy-dance alone.
The Bad;
Anya says she wants a car, puppy, child and boat. But didn't she refer to her car in Graduation Day pt2?
Best line;
"Kill us both Spock"
Women good/men bad;
None but Giles fends off the demon using a fertility statue, the power of the female.
Jeez!;
Kinky dinky;
Buffy and Riley can't keep their hands off each other, nipping to the bedroom for a quick smooch even when house-hunting. The estate agent quite shamelessly throws herself at cool Xander. Interesting that she assumes Riley is 'Mr Harris' at first, he is the guy you'd want as a tennant. Anya wants to take both Xander's back to her place and have a threesome with them, maybe it's not just men who fantasise about group sex with twins/triplets/sisters/mother and daughter(s)? As indeed Dopplegangland suggests, thinking about it. Dawn is quite the voyeur and seems to enjoy spying on Buffy and Riley smooching. The Xanders checked out some stuff in the car but one Xander quickly qualifies this as fingerprints. Anya refers to herself as Xander's slave.
Captain Subtext;
Spike's mannequin speaks of his Buffy obsession. Xander has been a soldier, clad in leather (The Wish) and now a construction worker. Half way to being his own Village People tribute band. When Xander refers to his love for Anya Willow replies 'Really?'. Riley and Buffy's car conversation is loaded with not-so hidden meaning. Riley tells Buffy he loves her unconditionally and she doesn't say the same back. The final revelation between Riley and Xander in the basement probably stems from this.
Guantanamo Bay;
Riley lapses back into scary goverment mode by saying he wants to lock both Xander's up and perform experiments on them (although as a psychology student I know what he means)
Scoobies to the ER;
No but Anya still licking her wounds
Missing scenes;
Apocalypses; 5,
Wheldon Cliches (with kind permission from Boo)

Scoobies in bondage:
Buffy: 8
Giles: 4
Cordy: 5
Will: 3
Jenny: 1
Angel: 4
Oz: 1
Faith: 3
Joyce: 1
Wes: 1
Xander; 1

Scoobies knocked out: Xanderx2. Giles comments on his constantly being knocked out
Buffy: 15
Giles: 10
Cordy: 6
Xander: 10
Will: 5
Jenny: 2
Angel: 6
Oz: 3
Faith: 1
Joyce: 2
Wes: 1
Anya;1
Kills:
Buffy: one demon so 85 vamps, 29 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot
Giles: 5 vamps, 1 demon
Cordy: 3 vamps, ½ a demon
Will: 4 vamps
Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human
Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie
Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans
Xander: 5 vamps, 2 zombies, ½ a demon, ½ a demon
Anya: ½ a demon
Riley; 12 vamps + 7 demons

Scoobies go evil:
Giles: 1
Cordy: 1
Will: 2
Jenny: 1
Angel: 1
Oz: 1
Joyce: 1
Xander: 3

Alternate scoobies: cool Xander. Willow also refers to her own evil double, VampWillow and claims she handled it fine (by shooting her with a tranquiliser gun and sending her back to another dimension to get staked?)
Buffy: 6
Giles: 3
Cordy: 1
Will: 2
Jenny: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 2
Joyce: 2
Xander: 4

Recurring characters killed: 9
Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara

Sunnydale deaths;
83;

Total number of scoobies: 7
Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Tara, Riley

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?)
Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot: no but Anya owns a gun, a snub nosed revolver.
Giles: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 4

Notches on Scooby bedpost:
Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes?
Cordy: 1?
Buffy: 3 confirmed; Angel, Parker,Riley, 1 possible, Dracula(?)
Angel: 1;Buffy
Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?)
Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca
Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley
Xander: 2; Faith, Anya
Willow: 2;Oz and Tara
Questions and observations;
I guess if one of your lead actors has an identical twin it seems a tremendous shame not to include them in an episode at some stage? (Terminator star Linda Hamilton is the only other actor who I can think off in this regard however, can anyone name any more?). Terrific performance from NB on all counts.
Now I heard that the original idea for this ep was a version where Buffy and Xander get zapped and he get's her powers (very similar to an old ep of Superman; Lois and Clark). She has to adjust to being normal once more and he revels in being a superhero and has sex with the entire female cast including Joyce (but except Dawn obviously!), even lesbian Tara unable to resist the ultimate alpha-male. But the power starts to drive him gradually insane which is why the Slayer always has to be a female. Now you can see where they went with this, it has elements of The Replacement in it plus Helpless, Superstar and Him. Some nice moments between Buffy and Riley too and the final scene between Riley and Xander is probably the most touching they'll ever have, Xander seems to be the confidant for all the Scoobies. Riley comments on Buffy's ice-skating film obsession, wonder what she made of MT in Ice Princess? Joyce refers to her headaches but blames them on living with 2 teenage girls rather than anything more. We get to see the Snoopydance, yay! Xander thinks his double is a robot (Ted, I was made to Love you, Intervention). Anyone intrigued to see what pure Buffy and pure Slayer might be like? (Superbimbo and a blonde version of the first Slayer?) Why do both Xanders change into the same clothes prior to the spell? Anya anticiaptes many years before her death, not that many.
Marks out of 10; 8/10

*

 

[flickchick85]

LOL, Sarah Michelle Gellar on the impending Buffy movie that's supposedly in the works:

To try to do a Buffy without Joss Whedon? Honestly, to be incredibly non-eloquent, that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard.

http://www.wesh.com/r-video/27850847/detail.html

 

[Charlie Boy]

Well said SMG. Couldn't agree more.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Nicely put SMG.

When the entire cast of the previous installment speaks out against it and the fanbase is against it? Why even continue with it? Why not use it as a chance to get the original cast back for something?

Thinking back on Angel recently however. My god. Most ****ing depressing series ever. EVERYONE is DEAD. Except like 3 of them.

 

[Charlie Boy]

Hey man, can't stop each apocalypse without breaking a few eggs. I prefer Angel to Buffy just about any day of the week.

But on the topic of the movie, there's absolutely no reason to go ahead with this project. No one will recognize it as being canon, chances are it will fail miserably at the box offices..And no one wants it.

 

[Primal Slayer]

If only all the originals werent so hellbent on not reuniting for a movie...

 

[Donut]

The only people who have jobs right now are Giles & Willow & Angel (correct me if I am wrong). If they are speaking out against this movie then why not reunite to do a proper one ?