Sequels Can a Spider-Man movie ever top The Dark Knight?

[RustyCage]

I'm holding my breath on the suggestion that even another Nolan Batman movie could top TDK! t: lol

 

[I Am The Knight]

I disagree. SM3 was equally bad. Not as bad as Batman & Robin, but that is where the franchise could end up if they don't drastically change some things about it.

Agreed.

 

[SuperKoala]

it's possible

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yes we do and that's fine; but as far as those criteria I gave above, BB was much better in all catagories IMHO than any of the Spidey films, and I am primarily a Spidey/Supes fan... not really a big fan of Bats, but story wise I have to give credit where credit is due. I think most are still taken back by the novelty of finally seeing Spidey on the big screen when it comes to the first film, and not really paying much attention to the criteria express.

There is a complete different philosophy in approach for these franchise... I think that goes without saying. I still enjoyed all the Spidey films btw, just think it does not compare to the Bats films and am very disappointed with the way the Spidey film are being told.

Batman bounced back solely because WB luck up and found people who understand the essence of the character, supporting cast(minus Rachel which was meant to be a throw away character), villains, and story telling.

The reason why I say Sam needs to go before it get to B&R, BF, Supes 3 & 4, SR, DD, Catwoman, Electra, and Ang Lee's Hulk status.

I much prefer Ang Lee's Hulk to the new one. The new one was just like watching a computer game.

 

[SuperKoala]

and the old one is like watching an n64 game

 

[I Am The Knight]

I much prefer Ang Lee's Hulk to the new one. The new one was just like watching a computer game.

Really? Cause there's much more action and CGI in Lee's Hulk than in TIH.

 

[SuperKoala]

the only way for spiderman movie to top tdk is if they cut all the crap

 

[Venom'sDad]

I much prefer Ang Lee's Hulk to the new one. The new one was just like watching a computer game.

Wow really... well I certainly didn't on many levels, but I respect the fact that you enjoyed it and curious to know what exactly you like about it, compared to TIH......... otherthan the computer game reference.

the only way for spiderman movie to top tdk is if they cut all the crap

Wow... short and to the point.

 

[SuperKoala]

thats what she said

 

[I Am The Knight]

the only way for spiderman movie to top tdk is if they cut all the crap

hahaha.

 

[dark_b]

and the old one is like watching an n64 game

is this supposed to be funny?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Wow really... well I certainly didn't on many levels, but I respect the fact that you enjoyed it and curious to know what exactly you like about it, compared to TIH......... otherthan the computer game reference.

I just think it had more soul, and I feel the characterizations were better. I actually cared for the characters in "Hulk". "TIH" not so much. I mean in Ang Lee's one you could tell Gen Ross was really conflicted about bringing in or killing the person his daughter loves. In TIH he just didn't seem to give a toss. And I liked the spin on the father-son relationship, Nick Nolte was at his unstable, dishevelled best.

Oh and the action scenes were much, much better IMO. From the moment he escapes the facility into the desert it just becomes epic.

 

[spider-neil]

Originally Posted by Venom'sDad
Yes we do and that's fine; but as far as those criteria I gave above, BB was much better in all catagories IMHO than any of the Spidey films,

I definately think TDK is better than SM2 but I think SM1/SM2 are better than BB which in my opinion was all over the frigging place. look at the ending for instance, the main threat (the train) was taken out by gordon for pete's sakes. a very overrated movie. I bought it on blu ray and the only thing I could bring myself to watch again was the interrogation scene (awesome) and the car chase (awesome).

 

[redfirebird2008]

I definately think TDK is better than SM2 but I think SM1/SM2 are better than BB which in my opinion was all over the frigging place. look at the ending for instance, the main threat (the train) was taken out by gordon for pete's sakes. a very overrated movie. I bought it on blu ray and the only thing I could bring myself to watch again was the interrogation scene (awesome) and the car chase (awesome).

The Power Ranger suit for Green Goblin in Spider-Man instantly knocks that film beneath Batman Begins. SM2 is a more solid film than SM1 and probably more solid than BB, although the ending of SM2 is just as over the top, if not more over the top, than BB's ending. The one thing BB lacks, and this is a good thing, is the stupid cheesy crap that exists in SM2 -- such as Uncle Ben's lame dream speech to Peter or all of Aunt May's cheesy monologues. "I'll believe there's a hero in all of us..." Sit down before ya fall down!

The makers of the Spidey movies could learn a lot from the Nolans on how to create a monologue about heros (ahem, the ending monologue of TDK).

the only way for spiderman movie to top tdk is if they cut all the crap

This is easy in theory, but difficult in practice. Gotta sell all those toys to the kids, remember. If they would make a brutal Spidey movie with Carnage as the villain, then I could definitely see it being better than Nolan's Batman flicks. But the reality of the situation is that Sony and Marvel are too greedy to give up the merchandising and box office appeal of making cheesy kid-friendly Spider-Man movies. I can't say I blame them though. If it makes a lot of money, then go for it. It backfired on WB with Batman & Robin, but that's because it was so awful that it was destined for failure.

 

[spider-neil]

The Power Ranger suit for Green Goblin in Spider-Man instantly knocks that film beneath Batman Begins. SM2 is a more solid film than SM1 and probably more solid than BB, although the ending of SM2 is just as over the top, if not more over the top, than BB's ending. The one thing BB lacks, and this is a good thing, is the stupid cheesy crap that exists in SM2 -- such as Uncle Ben's lame dream speech to Peter or all of Aunt May's cheesy monologues. "I'll believe there's a hero in all of us..." Sit down before ya fall down!

who cares about a cosutme? neither here nor there for me in regards to the quality of a movie.

for me the reason why SM2 was my favorite superhero movie of all time (until TDK, even I'm not going to argue that one) was the journey of the hero and the journey of a villain. fantastic, you saw how the hero's life was coming apart at the seems and all the things he wanted were out of his reach, he then takes off the costume and his life all comes together but the world around him was still a mess so had to put his personal life to one side and take up the mantle of the hero once more. I thought aunt may's monolouge was frigging perfect (if corny) don't get me wrong BB was a good (but overrated) movie but SM2 was better (imho).
the only thing that would have made the movie more perfect for me is if pete didn't get the girl at the end so his the scarifice of putting on the costume again more depth.

when I left the cinema I said that is the frigging best superhero movie I have ever seen, in fact I was thinking it wasn't going to be topped and then TDK came along (BLAST!!).

I have gripes about the lack of quips and other minor issues but when I was reading spidey as a kid, the essense of everything I liked about that character was near perfectly put on screen. I wish sam had quit while he was on top rather than ruin my memory of SM2 was the debacle that was SM3.

I will close by saying I bet any money that nolan will do to TDK with TDK2 what sam did to SM2 with SM3. when a film is that good there is nowhere to go but down. bethca!

 

[redfirebird2008]

who cares about a cosutme? neither here nor there for me in regards to the quality of a movie.

for me the reason why SM2 was my favorite superhero movie of all time (until TDK, even I'm not going to argue that one) was the journey of the hero and the journey of a villain. fantastic, you saw how the hero's life was coming apart at the seems and all the things he wanted were out of his reach, he then takes off the costume and his life all comes together but the world around him was still a mess so had to put his personal life to one side and take up the mantle of the hero once more. I thought aunt may's monolouge was frigging perfect (if corny) don't get me wrong BB was a good (but overrated) movie but SM2 was better (imho).

when I left the cinema I said that is the frigging best superhero movie I have ever seen, in fact I was thinking it wasn't going to be topped and then TDK came along (BLAST!!).

I have gripes about the lack of quips and other minor issues but when I was reading spidey as a kid, the essense of everything I liked about that character was near perfectly put on screen. I wish sam had quit while he was on top rather than ruin my memory of SM2 was the debacle that was SM3.

I will close by saying I bet any money that nolan will do to TDK with TDK2 what sam did to SM2 with SM3. when a film is that good there is nowhere to go but down. bethca!

TDK is far more overrated than Batman Begins is. $325 million better at the domestic box office? Really? I don't think so. Even if I did buy the argument that TDK is better than BB (which I don't), there's no way anyone will ever convince me that it's so much better that it deserved to make so much more than BB did at the box office.

By the way, regarding the dropoff from SM2 to SM3, the problem with this argument is that Raimi had Venom forced on him. Nolan has COMPLETE CONTROL of this franchise and has had complete control even from the beginning with Batman Begins. They aren't shoving crap down his throat forcing him to include lousy characters. And unlike Sam Raimi, Chris Nolan's brother has proven himself to be a GREAT screenwriter. Raimi brought his bro in basically as a form of nepotism, whereas Jonah Nolan is one of the brightest writers in Hollywood. He's the reason Memento even exists in the first place. The script for SM3 was terrible because neither Raimi brother is worth a damn at writing. The Nolan brothers are both excellent and have proven it with the likes of Memento, Batman Begins, The Prestige, and TDK. Simply stated, Chris Nolan is multi-talented while Raimi is not (being a good director doesn't mean you can write worth a damn) and Raimi's brother is a hack while Jonah Nolan is brilliant. There will be a drop off but I will say that Batman 3 will still be a hell of a lot better movie than Spider-Man 3 ever thought of becoming. The main reason there will be a dropoff is the Joker. He is the best villain in comic book history, hands down. And Ledger's performance was frickin' legendary. There is nowhere to go but down from that. However, I think the Nolan Brothers can come up with a hell of a movie with a villain like the Riddler. They've proven their ability to make what I call "mindf**k" movies with Memento and The Prestige. I think a similar style for Batman 3 would be great.

 

[spider-neil]

TDK is far more overrated than Batman Begins is. $325 million better at the domestic box office? Really? I don't think so. Even if I did buy the argument that TDK is better than BB (which I don't), there's no way anyone will ever convince me that it's so much better that it deserved to make so much more than BB did at the box office.

I just thought TDk was a more rounded and deep movie than BB the only thing that is badly flawed with TDK and I'm sure other people have said this is harvey dent's decent to a villian was completely out of left field. the city's white night totally losses it because he loses his love and scars his face? C'MON!!!!

you could put doc ock's decent down to brain damage but to say HD change to a villian was drastic is putting it frigging mildly. he was going to kill JG kid for pete sake.

 

[spider-neil]

TDK is far more overrated than Batman Begins is. $325 million better at the domestic box office? Really? I don't think so. Even if I did buy the argument that TDK is better than BB (which I don't), there's no way anyone will ever convince me that it's so much better that it deserved to make so much more than BB did at the box office.

By the way, regarding the dropoff from SM2 to SM3, the problem with this argument is that Raimi had Venom forced on him. Nolan has COMPLETE CONTROL of this franchise and has had complete control even from the beginning with Batman Begins. They aren't shoving crap down his throat forcing him to include lousy characters. And unlike Sam Raimi, Chris Nolan's brother has proven himself to be a GREAT screenwriter. Raimi brought his bro in basically as a form of nepotism, whereas Jonah Nolan is one of the brightest writers in Hollywood. He's the reason Memento even exists in the first place. The script for SM3 was terrible because neither Raimi brother is worth a damn at writing. The Nolan brothers are both excellent and have proven it with the likes of Memento, Batman Begins, The Prestige, and TDK. Simply stated, Chris Nolan is multi-talented while Raimi is not (being a good director doesn't mean you can write worth a damn) and Raimi's brother is a hack while Jonah Nolan is brilliant. There will be a drop off but I will say that Batman 3 will still be a hell of a lot better movie than Spider-Man 3 ever thought of becoming. The main reason there will be a dropoff is the Joker. He is the best villain in comic book history, hands down. And Ledger's performance was frickin' legendary. There is nowhere to go but down from that. However, I think the Nolan Brothers can come up with a hell of a movie with a villain like the Riddler. They've proven their ability to make what I call "mindf**k" movies with Memento and The Prestige. I think a similar style for Batman 3 would be great.

the problem with film makers when they deliver a sequel that tops the original in every way is they try to top the sequel when they should just concentrate on telling a good story.

number 1 - introduce the hero
number 2 - up the ante, no need to tell the origin can jump straight into the action
number 3 - where do you go?

 

[redfirebird2008]

I just thought TDk was a more rounded and deep movie than BB the only thing that is badly flawed with TDK and I'm sure other people have said this is harvey dent's decent to a villian was completely out of left field. the city's white night totally losses it because he loses his love and scars his face? C'MON!!!!

you could put doc ock's decent down to brain damage but to say HD change to a villian was drastic is putting it frigging mildly. he was going to kill JG kid for pete sake.

It wasn't just the tragedy that got him. It was the Joker coming in there and manipulating him, which is what he does best. One of the biggest flaws in TDK to me is the editing. Scenes do not transition smoothly very often, and the few that do are brilliant which is why I wish the whole movie had that kind of editing...one of the good scenes is the part where the Joker kills Gambol and it transitions with pretty good music to the scene of Fox landing in Hong Kong...excellent transition, too bad the rest of the movie has so many quick cuts. Another flaw is the climax against SWAT. I felt that action scene was unnecessary as hell, just an excuse for an action scene. The final part with the Joker and then with Gordon/Dent/Batman was excellent though.

 

[redfirebird2008]

the problem with film makers when they deliver a sequel that tops the original in every way is they try to top the sequel when they should just concentrate on telling a good story.

number 1 - introduce the hero
number 2 - up the ante, no need to tell the origin can jump straight into the action
number 3 - where do you go?

That's the thing that's so good about Nolan. He won't bother with it unless there's a good story to tell. Which is what he, his brother Jonah, and David Goyer are currently exploring. It would be much easier on him if he left Two-Face for the third movie, which is why I speculated as soon as I found out that spoiler before the film's release that Nolan was trying to go out with a bang and pretty much make it impossible to continue TDK's story in a sequel. The sequel will obviously have Batman as a villain at first, which brings up the question of how the actual villain will play into this. Some have suggested making the Riddler a rogue FBI agent who is on the case to help capture Batman and in the process turns out to be a criminal himself. I'm not really sure what they'll do but I hope to God they simply walk away if they don't feel it's up to the quality of the first two.

 

[spider-neil]

That's the thing that's so good about Nolan. He won't bother with it unless there's a good story to tell. Which is what he, his brother Jonah, and David Goyer are currently exploring. It would be much easier on him if he left Two-Face for the third movie, which is why I speculated as soon as I found out that spoiler before the film's release that Nolan was trying to go out with a bang and pretty much make it impossible to continue TDK's story in a sequel. The sequel will obviously have Batman as a villain at first, which brings up the question of how the actual villain will play into this. Some have suggested making the Riddler a rogue FBI agent who is on the case to help capture Batman and in the process turns out to be a criminal himself. I'm not really sure what they'll do but I hope to God they simply walk away if they don't feel it's up to the quality of the first two.

I honestly thought dent was being groomed for the third movie and then BAM he is a homidcidal killer. its just totally out of the blue, I'm sure LOADS of people watching the movie were like 'WTF?!', we're not talking about doom or lex characters with a history of misdeeds we are talking about argubly the most honest guy in gothem and I'll say it again, because he lost his love (so did batman) and burnt off half his face he went on a killing spree and this spree not only included bad guys which I could readily shallow but innocent people as well. COMPLETEY out of left feild and the only thing that had me scrathing my head in regards to an otherwise excellent movie.

personally I hope nolan takes the riddler and gives him the zodic/seven treatment or they could jump forwards 20 years and do the dark knight returns. I wish nolan well because I want to see good batman movies as much as the next guy but just like I said 'no way are they topping SM2' after watching SM2 I'm going to say 'no way are they going to top TDK'.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I honestly thought dent was being groomed for the third movie and then BAM he is a homidcidal killer. its just totally out of the blue, I'm sure LOADS of people watching the movie were like 'WTF?!', we're not talking about doom or lex characters with a history of misdeeds we are talking about argubly the most honest guy in gothem and I'll say it again, because he lost his love (so did batman) and burnt off half his face he went on a killing spree and this spree not only included bad guys which I could readily shallow but innocent people as well. COMPLETEY out of left feild and the only thing that had me scrathing my head in regards to an otherwise excellent movie.

personally I hope nolan takes the riddler and gives him the zodic/seven treatment or they could jump forwards 20 years and do the dark knight returns. I wish nolan well because I want to see good batman movies as much as the next guy but just like I said 'no way are they topping SM2' after watching SM2 I'm going to say 'no way are they going to top TDK'.

Yes, I would love the Zodiac/Seven treatment. Off-screen most of the movie. Just make it, as I said, one big "mindf**k" movie like Memento or the Prestige. It will hurt the box office of course but it could make for a worthy follow-up to the first two, even if it's not a conventional action movie.

 

[spider-neil]

Can a Spider-Man movie ever top The Dark Knight?

yes, but only by dropping the notion the spiderman movie have to revolve around a girl.

 

[spider-neil]

Yes, I would love the Zodiac/Seven treatment. Off-screen most of the movie. Just make it, as I said, one big "mindf**k" movie like Memento or the Prestige. It will hurt the box office of course but it could make for a worthy follow-up to the first two, even if it's not a conventional action movie.

movie studios only care about the money if they see nolan prodcing a subject matter that is too dark they might becomie more personally involved which will spell the death knell of the francise.

 

[redfirebird2008]

movie studios only care about the money if they see nolan prodcing a subject matter that is too dark they might becomie more personally involved which will spell the death knell of the francise.

Nah, I don't think they'll do that. They learned their lesson the first time with Burton. Plus, TDK was a hit beyond their wildest dreams. Biggest ticket seller ever for them. The amount of profits it has and will continue to generate for them are enough to cover 2 movies. Batman 3 will be Nolan's last one if he even bothers, so the franchise will be going in a different direction with a new director at some point. What would be really novel of them is to simply end it with Nolan, especially if he manages to deliver a third film on par with the first two. But we know that won't happen. They'll keep coming back to the cash cow probably for as long as the studio exists.