Whats sad is that it isnt even about representation of the gay community but moreso fulfilling some weird fetish people have with Steve and Bucky. Two men are more than capable of caring for each other without having any sexual feelings towards the other.
. He meant No, he didn't know it was Bucky. Then said Yes, he did know they were murdered. If was going to lie there and nothing has shown that Steve Rogers is a liar, he'd have kept on with the lie to try and defuse the situation.
The fallout would have happened anyway when Tony saw the murder. It might have been a little less shocking if he knew they were murdered but I don't think the visceral reaction to seeing it would have changed much of the out come.
Natasha had the same information that Steve did and she was on the side of the Accords and she didn't tell Tony. Is she also responsible for everything that Tony did and how he reacted?
As for Steve not caring about the Avengers,
he's not the one that left them to rot in The Raft. He also never asked any of them to fight for Bucky. He asked them to help him take down the Winter Soldiers he thought Zemo was going to activate. That's why he TOLD Tony they were there and what they were going to do but at that time Tony didn't want to listen because he thought Steve was emotionally compromised when it was Tony who was acting on emotions. That's why there was a fight and that's why they acted as decoys to help Steve get the mission done. It wasn't to help Bucky.
Even when Steve first went to catch Bucky in the film it wasn't to just save him for a "shoot to kill" order but if he was in WS mode to keep anyone from dying while trying to get him. He says he's the one least likely to die going after WS and he's right. When Nat talks about what a mess it is when they're all arrested Steve says no one died. He was right and every one else was wrong. (especially Black Panther who was out to commit murder though half the movie - so those Accords meant nothing to him)
Even after Steve is told there will be no lawyer for Bucky - or rather is just laughed at for suggesting it (who needs human rights and the regard for the law if you're the UN?!) he was going to sign the Accords. Even though he didn't fully agree with them, even though he wanted revisions (and sign before you actually get revisions is a very risky thing). That is until Tony told him he had Wanda confined to the compound with Vision. That she wasn't seen to be a party with any rights, that she was a weapon. This is how Ross views the Avengers - this is how he Banner and Thor - as missing weapons, not people with rights and choices. This is why he didn't sign and it wasn't about Bucky.
I think they bent over backward to give emotional weight to Tony's choices and make him sympathetic. They even bent over backward to make Ross
sound like he was right about the Avengers being responsible for casualties even when it was the WSC, SHIELD, Ross himself as the causes. They didn't even have anyone of the Avengers bring up that Tony created Ultron.
Instead we got platitudes that this is the UN and they're different. (lets all forget about Rwanda etc)
Clint, Scott and Rhodey are responsible for their own choices. Clint said he owed Wanda a debt but when he said she didn't want to go he pushed her. He didn't have to be at the airport - but he was bored and missed Avenging. Scott joined up to help take down bad guys. Sure he did it because Captain America called but how is that different from Peter coming because Tony Stark asked him even though he has homework. Scott and Clint are grown middle aged men, responsible for their own choices. Peter is a freaking child.
Steve doesn't have fallout in this movie? Peggy died. Bucky is back on ice. He's a fugitive and he's dropped his shield and is no longer Captain America. He paid for his choices and paid for things that were out of his control.
In the end he not only saved Bucky's life he saved Tony's conscience. Would Tony be able to live with himself when the rage and hurt passed if he'd committed murder against a brainwashed man?
In the end Steve wasn't choosing between friend because the scales weren't even. One friend wanted the life of the other. If Bucky had been trying to murder Tony, Steve would have stopped him, just as he was prepared to stop Bucky if it meant he'd kill the Task Force coming after him. Even if Bucky were Zemo Steve wouldn't stand by and let someone one murder him. That's not Steve. He didn't even kill Rumlow on sight when he had the chance.
Steve absolutely knew about Bucky and the Starks. Markus & McFeely said that he knew in a Collider interview. As Markus put it, Steve was acting selfishly in CW, and what he did to Tony was the worst thing he's ever done in his life. The writers admitted that they tried desperately to avoid having Steve admit that he knew and rewrote that scene hundreds of times trying to leave that out. So they had Steve lie when Tony first asked him, then admit it when cornered. Keeping Steve's pristine image intact wasn't feasible when it came down to that emotionally searing confrontation.
M&M also said that Natasha knew because she viewed the same video in Zola's bunker. The "Steve didn't know" excuse is dead and buried.
In the same interview, M&M laid out how the meticulously stripped Tony of his support system and destroyed his psychological defenses so that by the end of the movie he wouldn't be able to control his pain and rage. The only way the final fight worked was with an out of control Tony and they delivered on that.
Interestingly, the "brainwashed" assassin admitted that he remembered every person he had ever killed. That runs counter to the idea that his mind was ever wiped clean by HYDRA. He knew what he was doing on some level all the time.
As for who was responsible for the fate of the Avengers, that falls primarily on Steve's shoulders because he asked them for help in his misguided quest. Steve spent almost the entire movie being masterfully manipulated by Zemo, and he in turn led his followers into disaster. He wanted to clear Bucky's name of one crime, but tried to keep the assassin's other crimes buried. Zola put the need to follow him to Siberia out just to lure Steve, Bucky and Tony there and set them off. Steve stupidly let himself be drawn in and sacrificed the rest of his team for nothing. He refused to sign the Accords because Tony [BLACKOUT]had Wanda under house arrest, yet his actions got her put in superhero Supermax. (And note that Steve sent Clint to get Wanda. Clint had no idea where she was otherwise.) Steve pulled all those people into his bogus journey and then left them in chains. [/BLACKOUT]Regardless of what he did later, that was a crappy way to leave allies.
Um, Bucky remembers things now because it's been two years since he had a mind wipe.
Your claim that HYDRA wasn't mind-wiping him in the first place is objectively false. Pierce explicitly says "wipe him" in the brainwashing scene in TWS.
yeah just because he has memories of what he did while brainwashed doesn't mean he wasn't still brainwashed, the mindwipes were apparently just temporary
imo, Steve acted well within the realm of rationally, even if he knew what Bucky had done with Starks parents
Steve probably could've told Tony sooner, during a down moment, and broken it to him in a way that wouldn't have set him off
but the impulse to protect a friend, and the idea that you can't entirely punish someone who is not responsible for their actions, is relatable and understandable
and also, Steve didn't really leave his teammates, Tony talking to them was later the same day they were captured, and who knows how much time elapsed before the epilogue (it doesn't seem like much)
Um, Bucky remembers things now because it's been two years since he had a mind wipe.
Your claim that HYDRA wasn't mind-wiping him in the first place is objectively false. Pierce explicitly says "wipe him" in the brainwashing scene in TWS.
Pierce did say that, but in CW Bucky flat out said that he remembers every assassination that he committed. He could not have those memories if his mind had ever been "wiped." Maybe Pierce believed that all of Barnes' memories were erased but that can't have been the case. He wouldn't have been reminiscing about palling around with Steve otherwise.
Whats sad is that it isnt even about representation of the gay community but moreso fulfilling some weird fetish people have with Steve and Bucky. Two men are more than capable of caring for each other without having any sexual feelings towards the other.
yeah just because he has memories of what he did while brainwashed doesn't mean he wasn't still brainwashed, the mindwipes were apparently just temporary
imo, Steve acted well within the realm of rationally, even if he knew what Bucky had done with Starks parents
Steve probably could've told Tony sooner, during a down moment, and broken it to him in a way that wouldn't have set him off
but the impulse to protect a friend, and the idea that you can't entirely punish someone who is not responsible for their actions, is relatable and understandable
and also, Steve didn't really leave his teammates, Tony talking to them was later the same day they were captured, and who knows how much time elapsed before the epilogue (it doesn't seem like much)
Steve had very few rational moments in the entire movie, IMO. He was entirely driven by emotion, whether in his desire to "save" Bucky at all costs or his knee-jerk rejection of the Accords and any offer of compromise. His out of control emotions allowed Zemo to lead him into a series of escalating confrontations with the authorities and Tony.
The impulse to protect Bucky might be understandable. However, it was also irrational and indefensible. Steve is not a little kid who didn't tell his mom when he broke a dish. He had to realize that everything would come out eventually. And he would be the first one jumping up on his high horse had his and Tony's positions been reversed.
Steve did leave his team to be captured. The writers were careful justify that with a supersoldier red herring, because otherwise Steve's selfishness would have been too blatant. In the end, he got what he really wanted: [BLACKOUT]Bucky was free and not in danger of being killed or even put on trial. Everyone else on Cap's team wasn't so lucky.[/BLACKOUT]
No.....his team told him to leave so that he could complete the mission. Being told by several people, who you trust and depend upon, who are part of your team, that they want you to leave while they hold off the opposing group is not "leaving his team to be captured".
The writers were careful justify that with a supersoldier red herring, because otherwise Steve's selfishness would have been too blatant. In the end, he got what he really wanted: [BLACKOUT]Bucky was free and not in danger of being killed or even put on trial. Everyone else on Cap's team wasn't so lucky.[/BLACKOUT]
No.....his team told him to leave so that he could complete the mission. Being told by several people, who you trust and depend upon, who are part of your team, that they want you to leave while they hold off the opposing group is not "leaving his team to be captured".
Funny....[BLACKOUT]the movie I saw showed Cap breaking them out of prison.[/BLACKOUT]
The larger point is that everyone on Cap's team was there because they trusted him. Some have argued that it was their own fault that they ended up as they did, but it was clear that most of them would never have said no to Captain America. Believing in Cap and his bogus mission was their only mistake.
Cap got around to going back for them eventually. But enough time had gone by for Rhodey to be [BLACKOUT]fairly far along in his recovery. You don't get up and moving after the severe spinal damage he suffered in just a few days or weeks.[/BLACKOUT] That takes months at the very least.
Cap got around to going back for them eventually. But enough time had gone by for Rhodey to be [BLACKOUT]fairly far along in his recovery. You don't get up and moving after the severe spinal damage he suffered in just a few days or weeks.[/BLACKOUT] That takes months at the very least.
The larger point is that everyone on Cap's team was there because they trusted him. Some have argued that it was their own fault that they ended up as they did, but it was clear that most of them would never have said no to Captain America. Believing in Cap and his bogus mission was their only mistake.
Cap got around to going back for them eventually. But enough time had gone by for Rhodey to be [BLACKOUT]fairly far along in his recovery. You don't get up and moving after the severe spinal damage he suffered in just a few days or weeks.[/BLACKOUT] That takes months at the very least.
So....[BLACKOUT]you prefer for him to immediately run back to the prison without preparing so that he can get caught and imprisoned too? One does not simply walk into Mordor....you must plan your journey.[/BLACKOUT]
I thought the Steve/Sharon kiss was shoehorned too, but this makes no sense.
Steve can't care for Bucky and Sharon at the same time, in different ways?
I'm a gay man, and I even think this stuff is ridiculous. Never, in either the comics or the MCU, have either Steve or Bucky ever been remotely implied to be anything other than heterosexual (Bucky is a ladies' man in their Brooklyn days in The First Avenger, and Steve is in love with Peggy).
He loved Peggy romantically and he loves Bucky as a brother.
In either instance, it also tries to shove labels and categories onto the story and characters, which is also doing a disservice to everybody. It says that since the characters are doing this, it MUST mean they are this way and nothing else. That the label must define who they are.
I thought being a part of modern society meant that we didn't have to be defined by labels or categories. It's ridiculous that some people insist on defining things by a specific label, when things just are as they are and maybe it's just better to leave it that way, yeesh.
If you're talking about beating the police to Bucky in Romania, he explicitly explained to Natasha that he should be the one to "bring him in" because he's the one least likely to die trying.
He was not trying to help Bucky escape, at least not initially, he was trying to save both Bucky's life and the lives of people Bucky might kill if he was back in Winter Soldier mode.
And after that, he wasn't randomly running away into the sunset with Bucky, they were trying to evade the police/Tony long enough to stop Zemo from activating the other Winter Soldiers.
And if you're talking about Steve defending Bucky from Tony at the end....indefensible? To stop someone who had no mental control over his actions from being straight-up executed by a man in a blind rage?
Steve Rogers has never been gay in the comics, and in fact has a very long relationship with Sharon Carter. There's no reason why in the MCU he has to be gay just because he has a strong bond with Bucky. Apparently you can't have a brothers-in-arms like Steve and Bucky in today's society without coming out of the closet.
Agreed. And if Steve and Natasha can be presented as platonic friends then why is it hard for people to accept that Steve and Bucky are just friends as well? I mean even the Russo sa8d that they're pretty much like brothers to each other.
But then again we do have people shipping Loki with Thor.
Tony's tech will not replace the months of healing that would be necessary. [BLACKOUT]Believe me, I winced when Tony repeated the diagnosis because my spine is damaged in the same place (severe arthritis in my case). The rig Rhodey was using wasn't reliably supporting his weight and provinding balance or he wouldn't have fallen.[/BLACKOUT]
Why Tony didn't call in Helen Cho is a mystery. Was it a case of writers' amnesia? That might be the only explanation.
Tony's tech will not replace the months of healing that would be necessary. [BLACKOUT]Believe me, I winced when Tony repeated the diagnosis because my spine is damaged in the same place (severe arthritis in my case). The rig Rhodey was using wasn't reliably supporting his weight and provinding balance or he wouldn't have fallen.[/BLACKOUT]
Why Tony didn't call in Helen Cho is a mystery. Was it a case of writers' amnesia? That might be the only explanation.
You also have to keep in mind that this is a world where super-soldier serum was developed back in the 40s, and where Tony discovered a new element in what? Days? And a world where a being like Vision exists.
Real-world human physiology doesn't exactly apply here.
Also, they might have called Helen Cho to see Rhodey when he was flown to Columbia Medical. Where they did the initial scan, it can't have been that far from Germany.
If you're talking about beating the police to Bucky in Romania, he explicitly explained to Natasha that he should be the one to "bring him in" because he's the one least likely to die trying.
He was not trying to help Bucky escape, at least not initially, he was trying to save both Bucky's life and the lives of people Bucky might kill if he was back in Winter Soldier mode.
And after that, he wasn't randomly running away into the sunset with Bucky, they were trying to evade the police/Tony long enough to stop Zemo from activating the other Winter Soldiers.
And if you're talking about Steve defending Bucky from Tony at the end....indefensible? To stop someone who had no mental control over his actions from being straight-up executed by a man in a blind rage?
Allow me to quote the section of my post that you cut and misconstrued:
The impulse to protect Bucky might be understandable. However, it was also irrational and indefensible. Steve is not a little kid who didn't tell his mom when he broke a dish. He had to realize that everything would come out eventually. And he would be the first one jumping up on his high horse had his and Tony's positions been reversed.
In the above quote, I was referring specifically to Steve's decision not to tell Tony that Bucky had killed the Starks as soon as he found out. That's what BoredGuy and I were discussing. In a previous post I embedded a Collider interview with Markus & McFeely in which they specifically said that Steve's motives for not telling Tony were entirely selfish. He wanted to protect Bucky and he didn't want to deal with the consequences of telling the truth. In the end, Steve hurt Tony dreadfully and destroyed the Avengers. Markus said that is the worst thing that Steve Rogers has ever done. I quite agree with him.
The larger point is that everyone on Cap's team was there because they trusted him. Some have argued that it was their own fault that they ended up as they did, but it was clear that most of them would never have said no to Captain America. Believing in Cap and his bogus mission was their only mistake.
Cap got around to going back for them eventually. But enough time had gone by for Rhodey to be [BLACKOUT]fairly far along in his recovery. You don't get up and moving after the severe spinal damage he suffered in just a few days or weeks.[/BLACKOUT] That takes months at the very least.
Tony still seemed to have remnants of a black eye so the time elapsed is probably a fraction of that in magic movie time. But, yeah. Cap probably needed a little time to heal himself and organize a seafaring prison break.
Alternatively, it could be that her work and tech is why Rhodey is making so much progress so quickly as he is. Its just that regrowing severed nerves is a lot harder to do than just patching up a shrapnel wound.
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