Infinity War Captain America|Steve Rogers - Chris Evans

[BullMcGiveny]

Steve does have lots of stories to tell but those aren't the stories Feige is interested in having told.

I'm a casual fan of most of these character, and am only a devoted fan of Cap. And I may be all by myself in this but I've never really felt the movies did an adequate job of nailing Steve's idealism, or giving resounding examples of why people follow Steve. They just do, and we're required to accept that.

I don't understand the narrative of T'Challa apparently respecting Steve anymore than, considering their backgrounds.

 

[Delwin]

Why? Because he is presented as most honest and actually wisest (not smart- but wise) person in the team. He also is most tragic character - he lost almost the whole world. This makes him for me most favourite Avenger.

 

[markjoedelonge]

Why? Because he is presented as most honest and actually wisest (not smart- but wise) person in the team. He also is most tragic character - he lost almost the whole world. This makes him for me most favourite Avenger.

His letter to Tony at the end of Civil War really got to me. "I guess I've always been alone." Cap is just simply the best. He's endured so much tragedy, but his earnestness and his willingness and courage to do what he believes is right is exemplary. Evans plays it perfectly.

 

[ernesth100]

His letter to Tony at the end of Civil War really got to me. "I guess I've always been alone." Cap is just simply the best. He's endured so much tragedy, but his earnestness and his willingness and courage to do what he believes is right is exemplary. Evans plays it perfectly.

I can't bare to think of if he dies.

 

[markjoedelonge]

I can't bare to think of if he dies.

Me too

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Why? Because he is presented as most honest and actually wisest (not smart- but wise) person in the team. He also is most tragic character - he lost almost the whole world. This makes him for me most favourite Avenger.

I'm not sure what point in his limited interaction with T'Challa that he presented himself as especially honest or wise.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Anyway, if Cap4 is ever to happen, I'd much prefer they go through a recast.

 

[shadowboxxx]

Anyway, if Cap4 is ever to happen, I'd much prefer they go through a recast.

You prefer that then another character picking up the shield?

 

[shadowboxxx]

Why? Because he is presented as most honest and actually wisest (not smart- but wise) person in the team. He also is most tragic character - he lost almost the whole world. This makes him for me most favourite Avenger.

The honest part took a dive in Civil War.

The man who hates secrets the most betrayed one of his only friends in the world.

Cant wait to see how Cap and IM resolve things when they meet.

Probably just a nod and wink will do it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

You prefer that then another character picking up the shield?

Personally, I would. But my ideal solution is Cap survives and is off-screen until Evans maybe one day decides to comeback. Leave the door open for his return.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Depending on why someone is picking up the shield, yeah.

If it is for the potential to tell a story that draw on what the shield and the colors symbolizes, then sure, but the movies haven't emphasized that enough to be a likelihood.

Otherwise, why do it?

 

[SteveRogers41]

Steve does have lots of stories to tell but those aren't the stories Feige is interested in having told.

I'm a casual fan of most of these character, and am only a devoted fan of Cap. And I may be all by myself in this but I've never really felt the movies did an adequate job of nailing Steve's idealism, or giving resounding examples of why people follow Steve. They just do, and we're required to accept that.

I don't understand the narrative of T'Challa apparently respecting Steve anymore than, considering their backgrounds.

Cap is my favorite character, too. And I see what you're saying. As much as I've enjoyed the MCU, they're are traits that Steve possesses in the comics that they could have done a better job of capturing in film. The fact that he's one of, if not THE greatest tacticians in the Marvel universe for one. We've really not seen that in full action yet.

They've also sort of just glossed over the 'man out of time' aspect of the character (I blame Whedon for deleting scenes from Avengers that would have really helped in that regard) and Steve's PTSD.

That said, they have done a great job with other essential aspects to Steve: his loyalty, his willingness to put what he feels is right over what's easy, his compassion and his sense of honor.

And I think it is those traits that explains T'Challa's respect. It would have been easier, for Steve, to leave Bucky, not knowing whether the programming was gone, to his fate. It would have been easier to sign the Accords, even if he didn't believe in them, just to keep the peace within the Avengers. Would have been easier to hide behind the Captain America mantle and be that trained monkey he so bucked against in the first film, instead of become essentially a fugitive. But he never did what was easy, he stayed true to himself.

He told Natasha that he had to be the one to bring Bucky in because Steve had been the only one on record to break through the Hydra programming. He knew that whoever was sent after Bucky wouldn't have as good of a chance of surviving that encounter as he did, and so he broke his very short-lived retirement and did that.

He could have sat back and left Bucky to his fate once the Winter Soldier was reactivated by Zemo, but he didn't do that, because he knew his friend was still in there somewhere and had figured out he was innocent of the UN bombing.

He could have signed the Accords when Tony offered that second time, even though Wanda was being falsely imprisoned and Steve had just been denied his right to council when he asked Everette Ross for a lawyer for Sam, Bucky and himself, indicating that the right to council wasn't a thing the Accords were respecting.

It was Steve's actions throughout the film that led to T'Challa eventually finding out about Bucky's innocence in T'Chaka's death and finding his father's true killer. By exhibiting loyalty and honor, Steve prevented T'Challa from having the death of an innocent on his hands. And considering what T'Chaka did to T'Challa's uncle and young cousin, I think Steve's unwillingness to leave a brother-in-arms behind no matter the obstacle, would make an impression on T'Challa.

That said, I agree with you on the idealism aspect. This is why I want so desperately to see the Nomad story reach it's conclusion in the MCU and get a proper ending. We haven't seen Steve say, not once "I'm not loyal to the government, I'm loyal to the dream" and why bother putting Cap in a franchise if you're not going to give at least one iteration of that essential piece of idealism, one that defines his character?

Moreover, in the comics, as you are undoubtedly aware, it was Steve, as Commander Rogers - Top Cop, who eventually pardoned everyone who was on his side during Civil War and who overturned the SHRA and I really want to see that tied up properly as well. I feel, after living for a fugitive for a couple years now, he's earned that.

 

[Spider-Fan]

They've also sort of just glossed over the 'man out of time' aspect of the character (I blame Whedon for deleting scenes from Avengers that would have really helped in that regard) and Steve's PTSD.

I think Steve's PTSD has been covered, just not in a form where he says "Hey, I have PTSD." It's been covered more laterally. The fact Steve cannot imagine life without war in AoU is part of it. War changed him to the point he cannot imagine life without it. When he felt lost, he sought out Sam, a VA counselor. He didn't go there just to hear people speak. He was looking for something. His conversation with Peggy is also an extension of that idea.

 

[SteveRogers41]

The honest part took a dive in Civil War.

The man who hates secrets the most betrayed one of his only friends in the world.

Cant wait to see how Cap and IM resolve things when they meet.

Probably just a nod and wink will do it.

Telling one lie to protect a friend the entire world was gunning for, and who had been abused and tortured for years, does not negate Steve's entire record as an honest man. Particularly as he did eventually admit the truth and later, via letter, apologized for the deception. And it especially doesn't negate his record if he never repeats the same mistake again.

If it were Rhodey who needed protecting, Tony would have done the same thing. And Tony is not so devoid of compassion that he won't eventually recognize that Steve's motivation in all this wasn't malicious, he was just trying to protect his friend.

Messing up but then learning from mistakes is a thing that people do.

 

[SteveRogers41]

I think Steve's PTSD has been covered, just not in a form where he says "Hey, I have PTSD." It's been covered more laterally. The fact Steve cannot imagine life without war in AoU is part of it. War changed him to the point he cannot imagine life without it. When he felt lost, he sought out Sam, a VA counselor. He didn't go there just to hear people speak. He was looking for something. His conversation with Peggy is also an extension of that idea.

The 'can't imagine a life without war' is a Whedon thing though. Not a comics!Steve thing. Steve has quit being Cap so many times. And he's had a life. He was engaged to Bernie. He's also talked marriage with Sharon. At one time he worked as a commercial artist. When he came back from the not-dead he let Bucky keep the mantle for a bit and became Top Cop instead. When stuck in Dimension-Z he adopted a son. During the whole John Walker thing, but before becoming The Captain, he went on extended trip of America in his van.

Whedon was just obsessed with Ultimates!Cap and so he put Ultimates!Cap and not 616!Cap in his films. Markus and McFeely, themselves, have stated that their approach to writing Steve is entirely different from Whedon's.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The 'can't imagine a life without war' is a Whedon thing though. Not a comics!Steve thing. Steve has quit being Cap so many times. And he's had a life. He was engaged to Bernie. He's also talked marriage with Sharon. At one time he worked as a commercial artist. When he came back from the not-dead he let Bucky keep the mantle for a bit and became Top Cop instead. When stuck in Dimension-Z he adopted a son. During the whole John Walker thing, but before becoming The Captain, he went on extended trip of America in his van.

Whedon was just obsessed with Ultimates!Cap and so he put Ultimates!Cap and not 616!Cap in his films. Markus and McFeely, themselves, have stated that their approach to writing Steve is entirely different from Whedon's.

I found Whedon's approach to Cap just fine. What did Markus and Mcfeely say about it? Is there an interview I can read?

 

[SteveRogers41]

I found Whedon's approach to Cap just fine. What did Markus and Mcfeely say about it? Is there an interview I can read?

It was at their 2016 SDCC panel. Let me see if I can find a recording of it online. I'm sure it has to be up on Youtube somewhere. I have a recording of it but not the host/bandwidth to post it anywhere.

Ah, found it. Warning it's an hour long, but chalked full of good stuff. Well worth a listen when you have the time.

Markus and McFeely at SDCC 2016

 

[BullMcGiveny]

And I think it is those traits that explains T'Challa's respect. It would have been easier, for Steve, to leave Bucky, not knowing whether the programming was gone, to his fate. It would have been easier to sign the Accords, even if he didn't believe in them, just to keep the peace within the Avengers. Would have been easier to hide behind the Captain America mantle and be that trained monkey he so bucked against in the first film, instead of become essentially a fugitive. But he never did what was easy, he stayed true to himself.

I don't know, man. I don't think it would have been easy at all.

All that stuff has to do with Bucky, and Bucky is Steve's oldest friend. His actions were being driven by what was right, but by his emotions.

It would have been a far more noble if Steve was put in a situation where he had to choose between Bucky and the greater good, and chose the greater good. To be clear, I don't mean the accords represented a greater good.

As it stood, Steve didn't do anything he didn't want to do.

I do agree on Steve's PTSD and his culture shock, though.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

I think Steve's PTSD has been covered, just not in a form where he says "Hey, I have PTSD." It's been covered more laterally. The fact Steve cannot imagine life without war in AoU is part of it. War changed him to the point he cannot imagine life without it. When he felt lost, he sought out Sam, a VA counselor. He didn't go there just to hear people speak. He was looking for something. His conversation with Peggy is also an extension of that idea.

His PTSD is implied, definitely. But there's very little done beyond that. It feels like the Russos/Whedon/whoever are content to leave Cap perpetually with untreated psychological issues.

They've left Steve as this sort of combat junkie who isn't interested in anything but Avenging. It casts his supposed heroism in an unflattering light.

 

[shadowboxxx]

Telling one lie to protect a friend the entire world was gunning for, and who had been abused and tortured for years, does not negate Steve's entire record as an honest man. Particularly as he did eventually admit the truth and later, via letter, apologized for the deception. And it especially doesn't negate his record if he never repeats the same mistake again.

If it were Rhodey who needed protecting, Tony would have done the same thing. And Tony is not so devoid of compassion that he won't eventually recognize that Steve's motivation in all this wasn't malicious, he was just trying to protect his friend.

Messing up but then learning from mistakes is a thing that people do.

Tony is not the paragon of virtue that Cap was supposed to be.

I agree with you that Tony will come to realize that Cap's intent wasnt malicious. Thats why I said I think a wink and a nod will be enough. It might be that Tony is already over it once IW starts.

 

[shadowboxxx]

I don't know, man. I don't think it would have been easy at all.

All that stuff has to do with Bucky, and Bucky is Steve's oldest friend. His actions were being driven by what was right, but by his emotions.

It would have been a far more noble if Steve was put in a situation where he had to choose between Bucky and the greater good, and chose the greater good. To be clear, I don't mean the accords represented a greater good.

As it stood, Steve didn't do anything he didn't want to do.

I do agree on Steve's PTSD and his culture shock, though.

To me one part of Civil War is about Steve being selfish for once.

 

[parkerpete]

Telling one lie to protect a friend the entire world was gunning for, and who had been abused and tortured for years, does not negate Steve's entire record as an honest man. Particularly as he did eventually admit the truth and later, via letter, apologized for the deception. And it especially doesn't negate his record if he never repeats the same mistake again.

If it were Rhodey who needed protecting, Tony would have done the same thing. And Tony is not so devoid of compassion that he won't eventually recognize that Steve's motivation in all this wasn't malicious, he was just trying to protect his friend.

Messing up but then learning from mistakes is a thing that people do.

Yeah, that reveal that Steve knew about Tony's parents is a gut punch*, and complicates how you look at Steve, but it's really to the benefit of the character.

Steve is stronger, more moral, and definitely more bad-ass than 99% of people but he's still human. And yes, the part of him that wanted to protect his last remaining friend from his old life tipped the scales in how he acted during 'Civil War'. That humanity is what makes the conflict between him and Tony interesting... It wouldn't be a good movie if Steve was unequivocally 100% right about everything.

In the end, he regains self-awareness of how he acted and attempts to explain himself and offer help if it's ever needed. He doesn't double-down by blaming Tony for the Accords, but he isn't going to live under them, either. I felt very satisfied about how they handled his character.

*but really in retrospect, we kind of knew that Steve knew. It's implied that the Zola revealed this to him back in the SHEILD sub-basement in TWS. Or it was in the dossier that Fury gave him at the end of TWS.

 

[parkerpete]

To me one part of Civil War is about Steve being selfish for once.

Exactly. Everything he hasn't sacrificed, he's lost. EVERYTHING's been taken away from him and he finally does something that's a little bit for himself. It doesn't make him 100% right but you'd have to be made of stone to not understand why he would put Bucky's survival above other concerns. In my opinion, Steve's the best character in the MCU because each one of his movies has really built upon previous ones and enriched his character. Way more authentic and believable than, say, Tony blowing up all his suits at the end of IM3. That didn't stick and the character went right back to being the same Tony.

 

[SteveRogers41]

Tony is not the paragon of virtue that Cap was supposed to be.

I agree with you that Tony will come to realize that Cap's intent wasnt malicious. Thats why I said I think a wink and a nod will be enough. It might be that Tony is already over it once IW starts.

To be fair the 'paragon of virtue' reputation is not entirely Steve's fault. In the original Kirby and Simon run in the 1941, Cap had a real kind of prankster vibe going on. Even though he had been fully trained in various forms of combat by the government (Cap already had the serum when he went through boot camp in the comics), he had to pretend to be just a regular soldier like everyone else within his unit and he really hammed that up. He'd put itching powder in his General's jacket or accidentally-on-purpose step on the drill sergeants foot when standing to attention, etc.

The shock, for Steve, was waking up in the future to Cap paraphernalia and movies made about Captain America. If you read the first few issues of Waid's first run you'll find out how much Steve absolutely detests his fame and the way people revere him.

And this is another thing that the movies haven't done a good job of capturing... A huge issue for Steve in the comics is trying not lose Steve Rogers under Captain America, in trying to maintain a sense of self, because everyone had this idea they made up of who Captain America is and what he stands for but no one really cared about who Steve Rogers was (but a select few). This is why Steve sometimes insists on having a day job. And why he didn't tell Bernie he was Cap until they had already been dating for ages. Because sometimes he likes to pretend he's normal.

And every time the government pisses him off, he either quits being Cap for a bit (but never stops saving people, he just wont wear the Cap costume) or he full-on rebels. Thus the "I support the dream not the government" theme I keep mentioning.

In the MCU a part of Tony's view of Steve came from years of hearing his father put Steve on a pedestal. Which, again, not Steve's fault. That's on Howard. I never really got the impression in First Avenger that Steve and Howard were even that close. I mean yes they worked together but Howard wasn't on the level of one of the Commandos. Plus Steve has done things like hot-wire *cough* I mean 'borrow' cars and lie on his enlistment forms, did Howard not tell Tony that?

That's not to say he isn't a very, very good man. He absolutely is. He cares about other people. He's genuinely compassionate and empathetic. He's motivated to do the right thing because its the right thing to do. He doesn't bleed on people. He's selfless. In the comics he has literally given a homeless man the shirt off his back. He values people over material possessions. He quit an advertising job once (he worked as an artist for an advertising company by day and fought crime as Cap at night) because he disagreed with how commercial consumerism placed value in money over people.

I guess you could say one thing that rings true in both comic and MCU Steve is that he has to battle the perception other people have of who he is, with who he actually is. So the whole 'paragon of virtue' thing is not all on Steve in either form of media. As parkerpete so wisely put, he's human.

 

[parkerpete]

In the MCU a part of Tony's view of Steve came from years of hearing his father put Steve on a pedestal. Which, again, not Steve's fault. That's on Howard. I never really got the impression in First Avenger that Steve and Howard were even that close. I mean yes they worked together but Howard wasn't on the level of one of the Commandos.

This used to bug me a bit, but really it could be chalked up to older Howard bragging endlessly about how he knew the legendary Captain America. It's pretty natural for people to inflate their relationships with celebrities (even for Howard, a bit of a celebrity himself), especially if that person died a national hero.

And at the end of TFA, Howard is the one leading the expedition to find Steve's body and eventually co-founds SHEILD, so clearly Steve had an impact on him.