The Mandalorian Chapter Thirteen Spoiler Discussion

[Sithborg]

I think how many Jedi were left is a needless debate, only for people to have what has been said on screen not be contradicted. You know what that lead to before? The stupidity of making work arounds for Grievious and Anakin to never meet in the Clone Wars. It got really, really stupid.

The important part, that Rebel really emphasized, was not that Luke was important as the only remaining Jedi. But that Luke was important because he was the only one (well, in theory, one of two) people would could defeat Vader. Ezra, Ahsoka, and Cal (though, please god have him die soon) could not defeat Vader. Luke could, and it was always less about power levels than it was about Luke's ability to reawaken Anakin.

Ahsoka hiding makes sense. She saw what happened last time she caught Vader's attention.

 

[Snow Queen]

I think how many Jedi were left is a needless debate, only for people to have what has been said on screen not be contradicted. You know what that lead to before? The stupidity of making work arounds for Grievious and Anakin to never meet in the Clone Wars. It got really, really stupid.

While true, the comedy of errors involved in keeping Anakin from meeting Grievous for an entire arc in Crystal Crisis is a comedic masterpiece and I will not hear otherwise.

 

[flickchick85]

But that is the story. It has always been the story. Especially as Anakin razed the order, and Luke brought it back. Kylo standing on that salt lick in the middle of nowhere is trying to end the Jedi for good, the way his grandfather failed to when he didn't kill Luke a few decades before. That is an emphasis I think matters, especially as it ties directly to the sacrifices of both him and his father.

Also I think it needs to be pointed out that while Vader might not have felt Ahsoka before, he certainly did after and then watched her magically disappear, and then just went about his business? That's totally nonsensical, especially with how Vader doesn't give up his hunts. That was all on Filoni and a super poor decision imo. If he wanted that, he should of had Ezra pull her out of the rubble, after Vader left imo.

It's the story as you've always seen it, but not me. When they say the Jedi were wiped out in ANH, I never took it at face value (THEY'RE ALL DEAD ACROSS THE GALAXY. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE!), but instead took as "the Order is gone, most are dead, any left are in hiding. The cause is dead." And Luke reviving the Order doesn't change if that's the reality. It still had no hope of ever returning without him, because no one else was trying to do so, and no one else could defeat the Sith.

I agree that Vader just dropping that thread should've been handled better, but at the same time, I also think Anakin didn't want to kill Ahsoka any more than he wanted to kill his own son. I think he was happier to believe she was dead, even if, with any other threat, he normally wouldn't have relented until he had proof.

 

[flickchick85]

And yes the Greivous/Anakin thing was ridiculous.

 

[Snow Queen]

Okay, but tell me Anakin crashing into the wrong hanger specifically so he doesn't meet Grievous while Obi-Wan fights him isn't hilarious. Absolute best scene though is Anakin and Obi-Wan running past Grievous in a hallway and Anakin just having his back to Grevious so he can't see him. Absolutely ****ing perfect, I love it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

While true, the comedy of errors involved in keeping Anakin from meeting Grievous for an entire arc in Crystal Crisis is a comedic masterpiece and I will not hear otherwise.

This is my favorite Clone Wars story, and I hope they never finish it. I just want it in pre-viz form released in 4k.

But seriously, the way they handle Obi-Wan and Anakin in that is all I ever really wanted from a prequel stories. Those two being genuine brothers. The constant infighting, all the jokes about their history in the films and on TCW, and both being the base version of themselves. It's great. Add in the hilarious Anakin/Grievous thing and the B1 droids, and it is honestly the prefect prequel story for me. Especially with the dead eyes.

Okay, but tell me Anakin crashing into the wrong hanger specifically so he doesn't meet Grievous while Obi-Wan fights him isn't hilarious. Absolute best scene though is Anakin and Obi-Wan running past Grievous in a hallway and Anakin just having his back to Grevious so he can't see him. Absolutely ****ing perfect, I love it.

The best scene is Anakin viciously turning on his lightsaber to comedic effect, his blaster show or Obi-Wan's wave. But that one is close.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It's the story as you've always seen it, but not me. When they say the Jedi were wiped out in ANH, I never took it at face value (THEY'RE ALL DEAD ACROSS THE GALAXY. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE!), but instead took as "the Order is gone, most are dead, any left are in hiding. The cause is dead." And Luke reviving the Order doesn't change if that's the reality. It still had no hope of ever returning without him, because no one else was trying to do so, and no one else could defeat the Sith.

I agree that Vader just dropping that thread should've been handled better, but at the same time, I also think Anakin didn't want to kill Ahsoka any more than he wanted to kill his own son. I think he was happier to believe she was dead, even if, with any other threat, he normally wouldn't have relented until he had proof.

I think it is fair to say we are at an impasse, and a fair one. Unlike the idea that the Jedi are evil, this is a legitimate different point of view situation.

That said I do want to say one more thing. That while I agree the galaxy is huge, the structure of the Jedi and Sith orders meant they weren't huge and the Empire had a presence across the galaxy. Because of that and my admitted Luke Skywalker fanboyin', I prefer my lone Jedi stories kept to pre-OT, like Fallen Order. That said, I still rather enjoy seeing Jedi whenever they showed up, even when they seem to only exist to make my boy Luke feel less special.

 

[Snow Queen]

And on the subject of the ongoing conversation, personally I do think that Ahsoka and Ezra being around during that time does feel a bit retcon-y and doesn't quite jive with the way Return of the Jedi wants to sell it and I do think they're aware of it though, which is why they try to pull a "technically..." on both of them. But also I really couldn't care less. It doesn't hurt the movies or universe for me, and I want to see what they do with these characters in these eras more than I value making sure that part lines up. I do wish though Ahsoka hadn't been dropped out of the WBW practically five minutes after leaving though, that always felt kinda silly to me.

This is my favorite Clone Wars story, and I hope they never finish it. I just want it in pre-viz form released in 4k.

But seriously, the way they handle Obi-Wan and Anakin in that is all I ever really wanted from a prequel stories. Those two being genuine brothers. The constant infighting, all the jokes about their history in the films and on TCW, and both being the base version of themselves. It's great. Add in the hilarious Anakin/Grievous thing and the B1 droids, and it is honestly the prefect prequel story for me.


The best scene is Anakin viciously turning on his lightsaber to comedic effect, his blaster show or Obi-Wan's wave. But that one is close. :

The fact no one has made a gif of Obi-Wan waving that I can put here tells me the Star Wars fandom is beyond saving. No excuses. If Disney's going to drag the resolution of the end of Rebels out into live action where I have to wade through Rosario Dawson in teeny tiny pool noodlesTM, 4K story reels is the least I can ask for.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And on the subject of the ongoing conversation, personally I do think that Ahsoka and Ezra being around during that time does feel a bit retcon-y and doesn't quite jive with the way Return of the Jedi wants to sell it and I do think they're aware of it though, which is why they try to pull a "technically..." on both of them. But also I really couldn't care less. It doesn't hurt the movies or universe for me, and I want to see what they do with these characters in these eras more than I value making sure that part lines up. I do wish though Ahsoka hadn't been dropped out of the WBW practically five minutes after leaving though, that always felt kinda silly to me.


The fact no one has made a gif of Obi-Wan waving that I can put here tells me the Star Wars fandom is beyond saving. No excuses. If Disney's going to drag the resolution of the end of Rebels out into live action where I have to wade through Rosario Dawson in teeny tiny pool noodlesTM, 4K story reels is the least I can ask for.

Your disdain for my boy has never been more apparent.

The Star Wars fandom was beyond saving when you suddenly needed a test to get in.

 

[Sithborg]

I think it is fair to say we are at an impasse, and a fair one. Unlike the idea that the Jedi are evil, this is a legitimate different point of view situation.

That is one aspect of Karen Traviss' writing I feel confident that will stay the out of this series.

 

[Snow Queen]

Your disdain for my boy has never been more apparent.

The Star Wars fandom was beyond saving when you suddenly needed a test to get in.

I know I'm not in the Star Wars fandom, thank god, because I don't know who the **** Ikrit is.



And I only know that name because I'm sitting here yelling at @DarthSkywalker to give me the names of EU characters. And no, I still don't believe that's a real character.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I know I'm not in the Star Wars fandom, thank god, because I don't know who the **** Ikrit is.



And I only know that name because I'm sitting here yelling at @DarthSkywalker to give me the names of EU characters. And no, I still don't believe that's a real character.

Ikrit

 

[Roose Bolton]

It is interesting that when you look at the various iterations of the post-OT saga, be they Legends, Canon or even Lucas’ ST outlines, Order 66 survivors always seemed to be a thing.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It is interesting that when you look at the various iterations of the post-OT saga, be they Legends, Canon or even Lucas’ ST outlines, Order 66 survivors always seemed to be a thing.

 

[Herolee10]

It is interesting that when you look at the various iterations of the post-OT saga, be they Legends, Canon or even Lucas’ ST outlines, Order 66 survivors always seemed to be a thing.

At this rate, it'll be revealed that exactly 66 Jedi survived order 66 because everything has to be related to each other.

 

[Marvolo]

But that is the story. It has always been the story. Especially as Anakin razed the order, and Luke brought it back. Kylo standing on that salt lick in the middle of nowhere is trying to end the Jedi for good, the way his grandfather failed to when he didn't kill Luke a few decades before. That is an emphasis I think matters, especially as it ties directly to the sacrifices of both him and his father.

Also I think it needs to be pointed out that while Vader might not have felt Ahsoka before, he certainly did after and then watched her magically disappear, and then just went about his business? That's totally nonsensical, especially with how Vader doesn't give up his hunts. That was all on Filoni and a super poor decision imo. If he wanted that, he should of had Ezra pull her out of the rubble, after Vader left imo.

These characters aren't omniscient, and Kylo is a misguided dingus. Everything Kylo does and says in that scene is little more than petulant showboating to hurt Luke. Kylo had a snowballs chance on Mustafar of actually ending the Jedi for good, because the Force isn't going to allow that. There will always be good people that can use the Force and serve the Force and that's really all a Jedi is.

We dont know much of what Ahsoka did between the time Ezra saved her and the last scene of Rebels other than her staying on Malachor for a time. We dont know if Vader looked for her at some point after his fight with Ahsoka. We dont even know what sort of psychological impact that fight had on him. Its well established that Vader likes to repress Anakin and a lot of stuff that reminds him of Anakin. It's not inconceivable that Vader would write her off simply to avoid confronting that connection to his past again. He took a swing at her and it went bad. He moved on. I can buy that. Or I can buy that he ignored her afterwards because he didn't want Sidious pursuing the matter any further. It could go a number of ways if they decide to address it in the canon.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

These characters aren't omniscient, and Kylo is a misguided dingus. Everything Kylo does and says in that scene is little more than petulant showboating to hurt Luke. Kylo had a snowballs chance on Mustafar of actually ending the Jedi for good, because the Force isn't going to allow that. There will always be good people that can use the Force and serve the Force and that's really all a Jedi is.

We dont know what Ahsoka did after Ezra saved her other than her staying on Malachor for a time. We dont know if Vader looked for her at some point after his fight with Ahsoka. We dont even know what sort of psychological impact that fight had on him. Its well established that Vader likes to repress Anakin and a lot of stuff that reminds him of Anakin. It's not inconceivable that Vader would write her off simply to avoid confronting that connection to his past again. He took a swing at her and it went bad. He moved on. I can buy that. Or I can buy that he ignored her afterwards because he didn't want Sidious pursuing the matter any further. It could go a number of ways if they decide to address it in the canon.

No. That is not what a Jedi is. There is much more to the order then that, and how they live their lives in accordance with those ideals.

If we take your interpretation of that scene as gospel, there is no point to Luke, Rey, Leia, or any major character in Star Wars. As their sacrifice means nothing, as "the Force finds a way". But that isn't the story being told, which is why Lucas emphasized the importance of the soap opera aspect of the Star Wars films.

Your second paragraph... I am now imagining if he did that with Luke and how the OT would have played out. I am sure it would be just as memorable.

 

[Snow Queen]

I do kinda like the idea of Vader napping his way through the story though...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I do kinda like the idea of Vader napping his way through the story though...

I like to imagine that is the Emperor trying to get Vader to wake up and go do something. But Vader is just avoiding Luke and Ahsoka in his pod, because he don't want to deal.

 

[Snow Queen]

I like to imagine that is the Emperor trying to get Vader to wake up and go do something. But Vader is just avoiding Luke and Ahsoka in his pod, because he don't want to deal.

Vader's response:

 

[DarthSkywalker]

 

[Sithborg]

It is going to be interesting, if he continues to Tython, how the show reflects him being in the core, assuming they haven't moved Tython out of the core.

 

[fan4stic]

I bought Rosario as a Jedi...but I'm not sure I completely bought her as Ahsoka. I know the character has grown older, experienced more, etc. But...she just didn't completely feel like Snips to me. I'll need to watch it again.

I think she lacks the warmth of Rebels Ahsoka. Which is proper adult Asuka. She's not bad, but considering I have like 100 episodes of Ahsoka to judge it by, it is definitely a bit off putting.

I was think Zoe Saldana plays onto that more, in a certain way, to me.

 

[gohei_]

I don't Know why, but I keep picturing Kristen Bell as Ahsoka. That would have been interesting.

 

[TheVileOne]

At this rate, it'll be revealed that exactly 66 Jedi survived order 66 because everything has to be related to each other.

That sounds like a Doctor Who situation. Palpatine named it Order 66 because he knew by the end there would be 66 survivors. It was all pre-ordained!