BvS Constructive Criticism of BvS, MoS, and Zack Snyder's Directorial Style

[The Guard]

His shot list, his shot selection has to be atune to the writing, whether he has written it himself or not.

And how is this relevant to his work on MAN OF STEEL? How wasn't he attuned to the writing?

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I think Zack Snyder doesn't really ask himself "What would these characters DO?" during action scenes. This causes them to act out of character (Silk Spectre II killing comes to mind) and weakens the films from a narrative standpoint.

On the other hand, I think the obsessive faithfulness he generally has is a good thing, and there's NOTHING wrong with his films aesthetically except for his tendency to drain human skin tones (I think he thinks it looks more "filmic")

So my advice to him would be to pause and ask himself "Would this character do this?" before shooting an action scene.

 

[The Guard]

People talk about Lois being shorhorned in...if anything, Clark was shoehorned into HER scenes.

 

[MrsKent26]

The cutting of the ship leaving and arriving to being on the fishing boat was a real 'mis-step' for me, (one of the few in the film), as others have said, the Kents finding Kal is SO important and integral, I felt it needed that, the v quick cut felt emotionally we were 'robbed' of that moment, the moment of real 'first contact' which ironically Goyer kept banging on about being central to this version.

I actually liked cut from the ship to the fishing boat. Kind of a clever change of mind frame, IMO. But I did want them to include the Kents finding Clark's ship.

 

[Tra-El]

I absolutely agree about a scene showing the Kents finding Clark's ship. I really wish they had done a scene like that. I always think the idea of a kindly farm couple coming across an alien ship, with a baby in it of all things, and choosing to keep that baby is so beautiful.

Absolutely. Just talking about it makes me want to see that scene so much. IMHO, that's why you bring on marquee actors and actress's of that caliber when talking the likes of Kevin Costner and Diane Lane. That scene could have been their time to shine, especially with the nicely done scenes by Lara and the sadness she expressed by shipping Kal off. Seeing an emotional scene with Jonathan and Martha, turning Lara's sadness into a joyous one, could have bridged the two gaps of Kryptonian and Earthly parenting the movie desperately tried to connect on.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

His shot list, his shot selection has to be atune to the writing, whether he has written it himself or not.

Honestly, I don't think a director should be chained down by writing. But on the other hand, film is a collaborative medium, and there should definitely be talks to the writer about certain changes.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Absolutely. Just talking about it makes me want to see that scene so much. IMHO, that's why you bring on marquee actors and actress's of that caliber when talking the likes of Kevin Costner and Diane Lane. That scene could have been their time to shine, especially with the nicely done scenes by Lara and the sadness she expressed by shipping Kal off. Seeing an emotional scene with Jonathan and Martha, turning Lara's sadness into a joyous one, could have bridged the two gaps of Kryptonian and Earthly parenting the movie desperately tried to connect on.

That would have been epic. :/

 

[Mandon Knight]

And how is this relevant to his work on MAN OF STEEL? How wasn't he attuned to the writing?

Sorry, I am not saying he wasn't, I was just trying to corralate that just because he didn't physically write it doesn't mean he couldn't or wouldn't be able to 'tell the story' as your post seemed to indicate as he hadn't written it, the story telling or script wasn't his contribution or area of responsibility, as director you have too have every finger in every pie.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Honestly, I don't think a director should be chained down by writing. But on the other hand, film is a collaborative medium, and there should definitely be talks to the writer about certain changes.

Just personal opinion I suppose, I would never personally won't to direct someone else's script and haven't to date, I'd want to understand emotional perspective of story, be at 'one' with material.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

See, this is where you and I disagree. A director's job may range from "point and shoot" to the mythological "auteur" who is responsible for managing every aspect on film. I don't think we can know how much creative control he actually HAD on MOS.

On the other hand, BvS seems more like his and WB's baby

 

[Mandon Knight]

See, this is where you and I disagree. A directors job may range from "point and shoot" to the mythological "auteur" who is responsible for managing every aspect on film. I don't think we can know how much creative control he actually HAD on MOS.

On the other hand, BvS seems more like his and WB's baby

Absolutely, I completely appreaciate my level of film making where it is do-all and Snyder's 'I have people to do that' are very different but totally agree with you, the BvS vibe is one of a Watchmen 'feel' to his stamp on it, Goyer free !!

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ The world needs all types of directors

BvS is a 2.5 hour preview of Justice League. I personally think Justice League has a big chance of being the greatest superhero movie ever made (and will certainly be the biggest spectacle)

I'm glad we have this "positive but critical thread." The skeptics thread has devolved to "hate the air Snyder breathes."

 

[Tra-El]

That would have been epic. :/

No doubt about it. It baffles me they left that scene out. Man of Steel got into their heads in many ways, I feel. What to include from the mytho's; what NOT to include from the previous films; and what changes they can make to do this fresh take on Superman that will click. It was a daunting task and scenes that are most important to the mytho's, like Clark's arrival, got lost in the shuffle.

People say the "understanding of Superman" was lost in the vision and I can't DISAGREE more. It's all there, I just think they wanted to tell it all without being able to and they had to decide on the tough decisions while staying true to their message they wanted to send. Snyder had a tough task, which is why WB chose him in the end. He can manage his way through some of the most tough terrain's when it comes to movies; especially CBM's. He handles heavy criticism, some warranted, but most I don't believe is.

 

[Mandon Knight]

^ The world needs all types of directors

BvS is a 2.5 hour preview of Justice League. I personally think Justice League has a big chance of being the greatest superhero movie ever made (and will certainly be the biggest spectacle)

I'm glad we have this "positive but critical thread." The skeptics thread has devolved to "hate the air Snyder breathes."

Thanks dude

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ If we only had one type of director, we'd only have one type of movie.

I'm glad I can live in a world where The Dark Knight, The Avengers, and Justice League can exist

 

[BH/HHH]

Just personal opinion I suppose, I would never personally won't to direct someone else's script and haven't to date, I'd want to understand emotional perspective of story, be at 'one' with material.

I'm a filmmaker myself and I've never directed from someone elses script. I can't imagine how hard that would be for both the director and the writer.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ I guess I'm in the minority. I'd ONLY want to direct from someone else's script. Keeps me more objective

 

[Mandon Knight]

I'm a filmmaker myself and I've never directed from someone elses script. I can't imagine how hard that would be for both the director and the writer.

I would imagine with the amount of compensatory gestures having to be made to tell the story to both parties wishes, it could end up nasty.

As I say, all my shorts any my feature were self written, produced and directed, not to say, contributions from crew and cast were not present, they were, but from the initial ideas to script, it was self developed and driven.

 

[BH/HHH]

^ I guess I'm in the minority. I'd ONLY want to direct from someone else's script. Keeps me more objective

I never said I wouldn't haah just that I'd find it difficult. I actually think those that can do it deserve a ton of credit.

I would imagine with the amount of compensatory gestures having to be made to tell the story to both parties wishes, it could end up nasty.

As I say, all my shorts any my feature were self written, produced and directed, not to say, contributions from crew and cast were not present, they were, but from the initial ideas to script, it was self developed and driven.

I guess with Snyder and Goyer though we know that Goyer wrote the first draft but we know he collaborated with Snyder on elements of later drafts. Of course he still wrote it but those two spent time on it together. So maybe that's the way to do it.

 

[MrsKent26]

I'm glad we have this "positive but critical thread." The skeptics thread has devolved to "hate the air Snyder breathes."

I think the issue with the skeptics thread (and certainly my issue with it) is that it has become the very thing it hates, at least on some days. It was originally made because skeptics were under fire in the collective threads. And it was a legit problem. Sometimes it was impossible to be skeptical even if the skepticism was voiced calmly and reasonably. I've experienced it myself.

But now...the reverse happens sometimes. It devolves into nothing more than back-slapping and kudos for posts that condemn (sometimes justifiably, sometimes not-so-much) the actions of so-called "MOS defenders" without acknowledgement (and sometimes heavy ridicule) of any reasonable rebuttal from the other side. There seems to be some people in that thread that have little respect for differing opinions, which is highly ironic given the reason for that thread's continuing existence.

 

[Mandon Knight]

The story & script development are key, without those, no matter how it functions is the nucleus, the blood of the film. I think Goyer isn't given quite enough reverence for what he's contributed thus far. He clearly knows his stuff in terms of comic lore.

 

[BH/HHH]

I think the issue with the skeptics thread (and certainly my issue with it) is that it has become the very thing it hates, at least on some days. It was originally made because skeptics were under fire in the collective threads. And it was a legit problem. Sometimes it was impossible to be skeptical even if the skepticism was voiced calmly and reasonably. I've experienced it myself.

But now...the reverse happens sometimes. It devolves into nothing more than back-slapping and kudos for posts that condemn (sometimes justifiably, sometimes not-so-much) the actions of so-called "MOS defenders" without acknowledgement (and sometimes heavy ridicule) of any reasonable rebuttal from the other side. There seems to be some people in that thread that have little respect for differing opinions, which is highly ironic given the reason for that thread's continuing existence.

Yeah this is spot on

What I hate about it is it went from been skeptical about BvS to simply complaining about the same stuff people have been complaining about Man of Steel fro three years. There are numerous Man of Steel threads those criticsms should be reflected there unless it's in comparison to something that people fear about BvS but for many posts in there it's not.

 

[jmc]

I'd actually like to know, aesthetics aside, what exactly is it people like from Snyder from a story telling perspective?

 

[Mandon Knight]

I'd actually like to know, aesthetics aside, what exactly is it people like from Snyder from a story telling perspective?

Oh you had to ask, didn't you ? t:

 

[jmc]

I'm not here to criticise, it's just dawned on me I've never actually asked the question before.