BvS Constructive Criticism of BvS, MoS, and Zack Snyder's Directorial Style

[rogbngp]

Montages are a good place to see what a director can do with visual story telling given the freedom afforded. I tend to really enjoy Snyder's, the watchmen opening seemed to add alot to that material and unlike people say about that adaptation, that was one thing that it wasn't all there in on the page. I also liked his birth of manhattan vision along with his rorschach(sp) montages.
I'd suggest he finds ways to do more of that with his work, it could be his thing even.

I'm hoping for a what superman has been upto montage, along with a future dystopia montage and of course the origin one. Hopefully one more with lex.

I'd also like more voice overs. His work is one of the few places to see the tool used, and to think you can hardly find a comic book without thought bubbles and the like, so it's really stands out to me that all these movies are kinda working under half power if you will. He managed to retain it in watchmen and 300 and I think it helped greatly. That batman and superman are doing their thing and I'm probably not going to get the thought bubbles is a potential flaw with this film...correction a flaw for me for I'd really enjoy that.

I am so hoping for an end credits Watchmen style montage of possible futures in BvS! Snyder has said that the vision that Batman has has a flavor of the ghost of Christmas future from Dickens' A Christmas Carol. I.e., this is what could be if you don't change it.

 

[CGNefarious]

I absolutely loved Man of Steel. It's one of my favorite movies to date. That said, I felt its weakest parts were the dialogue and some of the plot devices.

It seemed to me that almost all of the dialogue in the movie was forced exposition, and thus felt a little unnatural. Not nearly as bad as some people claim, as most of it is delivered well, but it does make it feel more like a movie and less real. Ironically I felt that Batman Begins and, to a lesser extent, The Dark Knight had a similar issue. Both of those are also movie I love, and they're written by Goyer, so maybe it's more a problem with him than Snyder. But I'm not even remotely an expert on such things, so I would have no real way of knowing.

The other major issue is the plot devices. As mentioned previously in this thread Lois seemed to pop up everywhere for almost no reason. Was she really needed on the aircraft at the end? That would have never happened irl. Also, I felt the death of Jonathan Kent was handled poorly. I totally get what Snyder was going for, but I don't think it landed very well.

Overall I've really enjoyed all the Snyder films I've seen (MoS, Watchmen, and 300) and I have very high hopes for BvS. Let us hope he really delivers this time. From everything I've seen so far, it looks like he has.

 

[batfreakforever]

Far out. Fans really have a ***** for hating on Goyer and dialogue. Dialogue in comics is worse and forced way more than movies ever could.

 

[CGNefarious]

I'm not trying to hate on Goyer. He wrote three of my favorite movies. But I do think the dialogue in those movies were some of the weakest parts.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

The thing, though, is scripts are so much more than dialog. They are the blueprint for a film. Titanic has some embarrassing dialog, but because the structure and characters are good, I think people overlook it.

Goyer should have at least some credit for writing Blade, which is the first hit based on a Marvel property. The 2000 era genre wouldn't be the same without it, if it even existed.

 

[rogbngp]

He must have intended the Christian symbolism because it was heavy-handed and thus unmistakable.

He had said he wanted the final battle to play out like a "mythological event" or something to that effect as well. I can't remember the rest of the interview, but I'm assumed he's talking pagan myths there. I appreciated this type of symbolism more because the idea that some catastrophic event begins a new age for humanity can be told and yet be void of any boring destiny talk. It can just be about a myth forming due to definable events, rather than something mystical and preordained. It happens in society all the time (the world, and most certainly the USA, is rather different post-9/ll) and will happen to Metropolis and the Earth depicted in this DCU...

Yes, Christian for sure... although there is really just one chief image when Jor-El says 'go save them, save them all' and he poses like Jesus on the cross

and I don't think Christ imagery showed up significantly other than that... that's the only instance I can think of, anyway. But yes, that is unmistakable I would say.

In keeping with Snyder's project to bring this myth/archetype out of its past 'rose colored' idealized mythos and into our harsher, more complex, morally grayer (literally in terms of the color palette) present 'real world' one, i.e., what would it look like if this character actually showed up in our real word?... There would be a lot of talk around a figure like this being either a potential savior versus Antichrist. It looks like we'll see that significantly developed in BvS.

I think Snyder is working with Superman also as a mythic ideal that America holds of itself (see here), and there is a lot for American society to sort out about 'what it means to be the good guy' in the complicated real world stage of geopolitics versus a purely idealized moral universe. So the Christian theme of savior vs. Antichrist is an appropriate symbol for that. Especially given how strong a role Christian ego ideals have played in the foundation of this country. Not to get carried away with that, but many of the founders had a kind of Enlightenment inflected humanistic view of all that. And that individualistically oriented, humanistic, and creative (outside-of-the-box) way of thinking (Yankee ingenuity) is one of America's most cherished ego ideals culturally. But anyway, it's all very rich stuff to play around with conceptually.

The Jesus image above is crystal clear as far as I'm concerned. Just how deep Snyder's thinking goes about how he intends to use the Christian myth in relation to America (and Superman as a symbol of that) is hard to say at this point however. One thing that strikes me about this film is that because Snyder is using mythic images and symbols, there are probably going to be things showing up that do reflect the 'collective unconscious', and are valid to make Jungian interpretations about, even if Snyder did not consciously intend them to begin with. (Hope that last sentence makes sense.)

 

[BatLobster]

These immediately jumped out at me too when I first saw the movie.

 

[rogbngp]

Oh yeah! I forgot about those. Both of those images convey a Christ association for sure, I think.

 

[matt47]

These immediately jumped out at me too when I first saw the movie.

The bottom one didn't register with me until someone here pointed it out. But yeh the pose he does when leaving the Black Zero is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

 

[rogbngp]

The bottom one didn't register with me until someone here pointed it out. But yeh the pose he does when leaving the Black Zero is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

I see it as an iconographic 'nod'. It's a pretty vigorous nod, true. But it only lasts a moment. Didn't bother me. It's part of the mythos that Snyder is commenting on. So it's okay with me that it occurs at a crucial moment right before he essentially offers to sacrifice himself to save humanity. Turns out he survives, but he is prepared to die to save the world.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

I feel he got the suit too early. I would've gone for him not immediately embracing his Kryptonian heritage and the suit.

The scene where the doors open and he walks out with the suit could've been more epic if he first fought with the Kryptonians in normal garb and without conviction.

Then when he gets beaten up, spirits are down and the world needs him the most he retreats to his "fortress of Solitude" to heal and find himself. He then finishes watching a recording Jor-El and Lara left him that packs an emotional punch, this empowers him, he embraces his heritage, gets the suit, walks out like a boss and flies back to Metropolis for round two.

I would've pushed him in the suit to about the start of the 3rd act.

Also, not to bring that up again, but the hurricane death scene...ughh...

It's the one thing about the movie that just gets more stupid the more I watch it. While the rest of the movie gets better the more I watch it. There's just no reason whatsoever he even needed to reveal his powers. Just to the car like a normal person, free the dog and sprint back, maybe slightly faster to avoid getting caught in the hurricane.

AAARRRGGGHHH it's SOOO STUPID !!!\

sorry

 

[rogbngp]

A thought occurred to me that is maybe going too far in the realm of speculation (who, me?)... But if Snyder is playing creatively with what the Christian myth and archetype mean to American culture through the Superman character and story... and I believe he is...

... And many of the U.S.'s founding fathers had a very humanistic and rationalistic view of Christianity allegedly... I was very intrigued for example, that Snyder reportedly recently commented that he would like to one day make a film about George Washington! Snyder reportedly has a painting of Washington at Valley Forge over his desk in one of his offices, and he is inspired by it... So he wants to play creatively as a filmmaker with the myth of George Washington... Hmm!

Is Snyder's playful creativity with the Superman/Christlike parallels sort of mirroring something that he feels is a core foundational ingredient to the American cultural identity and psyche?

Freedom of individual to form non-conformist beliefs, practice religion freely, and for creative expression of thought in general was a big, huge deal to the founding of America. So, let's say for the sake of argument that the U.S. founding fathers (or most of them, at least) did not feel bound to adhere with a very strict traditional view of what Christianity is, or what it means. They privately developed their own more humanistic and rationally oriented views of it (which could also certainly be said of Jungian psychology, by the way), feeling free to do so as individuals.

Maybe all of this is reflected in some way by Snyder as a filmmaker playing with these mythic Christian themes and symbols in MoS? It's sort of neat to consider because it could even be there as innocently reflected (i.e., not intentional), even if Snyder did not consciously intend to say it. There is a cogent sort of postmodern narrative that can be developed from all of this that I think could actually hang together quite well.

Sorry to get all intellectual and wonky about it. But this is the sort of thing I love to inspect and ponder about films like this one.

And let me say also that while I expect people may rib me in this thread in a friendly way about maybe getting carried away with trying to find meanings that I may ultimately just be projecting... at least this thread allows for doing that without just trotting out a lot of memes and emoticons that simply ridicule the general idea!

 

[Spider-jedi]

I didnt like the Christ association in the movie. IMO it was right in our face when it dint need to be. I hated when the comics book started making the christian association and my thought was that it wasn't needed. My reasoning been that Jor-el first purpose was to save his son and not to save planet earth. that was secondary. i think he ment to save them from making the same mistakes krypton made in how they treated their planet.

Someone said a couple of pages ago that the movie tried to do too much and i think he was right. like i said before if the movie didnt have that fliter that was alternating between blue, orange and gray it might have helped IMO. I hope BVS doesnt have that. the color tone helps to shape how people feel about a scene or a picture and i think that having happy moments but the scenery looking grim will give a grim feeling thus having people complain that that the movie is too dark in tone. IMO i thought the movie wasnt dark in tone at all, the color filter used gave that feeling

 

[rogbngp]

I didnt like the Christ association in the movie. IMO it was right in our face when it dint need to be. I hated when the comics book started making the christian association and my thought was that it wasn't needed. My reasoning been that Jor-el first purpose was to save his son and not to save planet earth. that was secondary. i think he ment to save them from making the same mistakes krypton made in how they treated their planet.

Someone said a couple of pages ago that the movie tried to do too much and i think he was right. like i said before if the movie didnt have that fliter that was alternating between blue, orange and gray it might have helped IMO. I hope BVS doesnt have that. the color tone helps to shape how people feel about a scene or a picture and i think that having happy moments but the scenery looking grim will give a grim feeling thus having people complain that that the movie is too dark in tone. IMO i thought the movie wasnt dark in tone at all, the color filter used gave that feeling

I certainly agree about the color desaturation/blue-gray filtering. Without that the film would have felt different emotionally, no doubt.

But do you think it's fair to say that story-wise, and in terms of overall mood, compared with Superman: The Movie, the emotional tone of MoS is more tense, heavy, and pensive?

 

[Micromind]

I'm not trying to hate on Goyer. He wrote three of my favorite movies. But I do think the dialogue in those movies were some of the weakest parts.

Not really, Jor El's dialogue was well written and Zod's dialogue was not bad either.

People mostly remember some cringe worthy lines that Goyer wrote, and yeah those were @i!%.

 

[Spider-jedi]

I certainly agree about the color desaturation/blue-gray filtering. Without that the film would have felt different emotionally, no doubt.

But do you think it's fair to say that story-wise, and in terms of overall mood, compared with Superman: The Movie, the emotional tone of MoS is more tense, heavy, and pensive?

I will say MOS has a lot more going on i think the intention was for it to be more in very scene of the word. more action, more krypton, more emotion, more more more. i think succeeded in some areas. I loved everything on krypton(I wanted more) I like the first flight scene(best scene in the movie IMO) I like the non linear story telling ( the scene of him struggling with the power was great)

superman the movie didn't have those but it did have was the hopefully feeling it gave when you watched it. MOS ending with ash falling from the sky a very grim scene which i didnt mind but i understand people not having that hope feeling when the movie was done. STM has him flying(great scene) MOS has him starting a new job(just an okay scene)

 

[TeeKay]

The bottom one didn't register with me until someone here pointed it out. But yeh the pose he does when leaving the Black Zero is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

The choir-esque music didn't help either.

 

[Luke234]

It doesn't have to be the Jesus character. Horus predates Jesus and was also crucified, died, buried, resurrected in 3 days, raised a guy from the dead named Lazarys, walked on water, healed the sick. The Jesus story is not original.

 

[rogbngp]

I will say MOS has a lot more going on i think the intention was for it to be more in very scene of the word. more action, more krypton, more emotion, more more more. i think succeeded in some areas. I loved everything on krypton(I wanted more) I like the first flight scene(best scene in the movie IMO) I like the non linear story telling ( the scene of him struggling with the power was great)

superman the movie didn't have those but it did have was the hopefully feeling it gave when you watched it. MOS ending with ash falling from the sky a very grim scene which i didnt mind but i understand people not having that hope feeling when the movie was done. STM has him flying(great scene) MOS has him starting a new job(just an okay scene)

Yeah, I think that MoS moves Superman into more of a 'what would all this look like if it really were to take place in the real world' sort of framework. There are obviously limits to how realistic any of it can be, but personally I think its a very cool thing to play with, and it amounts to a reinvention of the myth for the world we live in today.

So Superman makes mistakes. There are limits to what he can do. He has godlike powers but he is anything but perfect. And he has to work for a living, lol.

I mean, I get that people miss the more soaring, idealized view of the character. Or even dislike a departure from that. But I think there is so much more to work with dramatically with the approach Snyder took. It allows for the character to explore more mature, sophisticated, adult themes, for example.

Finding the sweet spot for holding on to the more soaring feel-good aspects to the character and making him more real and relatable to today's world is also a fun and interesting challenge for Snyder and whichever director is tapped to make MoS 2 (and I believe there will be one).

 

[Luke234]

I'm not arguing he was not thinking of the Jesus character. I'm saying if it offends anyone there are plenty of other gods predating Jesus that were also crucified. One of my friends hated that aspect who was Christian and my wife is Christian and she thought it was cool that they did that. Interesting that there are different views. I happen to be an atheist but I thought it was really neat symbolism.

 

[rogbngp]

It doesn't have to be the Jesus character. Horus predates Jesus and was also crucified, died, buried, resurrected in 3 days, raised a guy from the dead named Lazarys, walked on water, healed the sick. The Jesus story is not original.

From a Jungian standpoint that is for sure. Osiris is another example. Jesus = Jungian archetype is one perfectly valid way of looking at it.

 

[Spider-jedi]

It doesn't have to be the Jesus character. Horus predates Jesus and was also crucified, died, buried, resurrected in 3 days, raised a guy from the dead named Lazarys, walked on water, healed the sick. The Jesus story is not original.

If you go by that logic. Lots of people were killed that way back in those times so do we say that Jesus copied them. As for Horus the people who calm that Jesus copied him would have had no way of knowing about Horus during that time but that is not important.

the main issue here is that MOS did not need all that "in your face" symbolism.

 

[rockandrollsoul]

I'm agnostic and I don't care for organized religion and I love the shot of him leaving the Black Zero.

 

[Verick808]

Didn't mind the Christ parallels. The character is steeped in them at this point. Of course I'm an athiest so there is that.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Personally I feel MoS attempted too much and suffered for it. Too many scenes were just thrown in one after another right after another with no real transition. It was like Either Snyder or Goyer or both had a checklist of scenes they wanted in the film and just concentrated on checking them off.

I felt the only flashback that I liked was the final one with young Clark pretending to be a hero of sorts as Pa Kent watched. You could see the hopes he had for his son in his eyes, the expectation. That was a well done scene by both the Costner and Snyder. All the others ran hollow to me. It was like they were trying to characterize the adult Clark using flashbacks of his youth. That could have been amazing if done right but it came at the expense of giving adult Clark any real development or character insight. I also don't think we needed to see his father die. Batman is the result of how his parents died. Superman was born from how his parents lived. I also felt the world engine fight was a waste of time.

Snapping Zod's neck was one of the best moments in the film in my opinion. Almost every other superhero franchises has heroes offing villains left and right and generally not really addressing it. But the final fight for MoS ends with Zod completely at Superman's mercy yet Superman is the one begging him to stop. Not for the family because saving that family is well within his power. He's was pleading for Zod's life and himself because taking a life, even Zod's would hurt him. Zod refused though and Superman was forced to take his life. And he wept.
As far as I am concerned that single scene did more to show us how much the character loved and revered life than any Superman scene from any movie or television show. Live action or animated. Ever.

This is it. For everybody 'horrified' by that scene, this is why Superman did it. By the very outpouring of grief afterwards, you can tell it was his last resort NOT his first thought.