Creator Bout 1: Battle of the Brits part 1 Moore vs Gaiman

[Elijya]

when you say things like that, that encourages my thinking that it's overrated

 

[CobraCommander]

Man... your loss dude. You're missing out on something great. And coming from you, that's surprising.

 

[Barbelith]

Honestly, I think Moore wins by a good amount. I know I'm going to be crucified for this, but I read five volumes of Sandman and didn't really like it. I mean, a lot of my friends said that it's the greatest comic ever, and when I read it, I wasn't that moved. I mean, some of the stuff was good (I liked 'The Doll's House'), but overall I just didn't like it.

Moore, on the other hand, has written consistantly awesome stuff, no matter what genre it is. Whether it's superheroes, futuristic, fantasy, he can do it all. But I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Top Ten. I picked it up this summer and it was one of the best comics I've read in a long time and I'm pissed as hell that he's not going to do any more.

 

[Elijya]

Man... your loss dude. You're missing out on something great. And coming from you, that's surprising.

I've read it, and I enjoyed it, I just think it's overrated. And it's really not that original as people always shout that it is, it's built on ideas Mark Gruenwald established 4 years earlier in Squadron Supreme, and from the novel Superfolk

 

[Unthinkable]

Watchmen can never be overrated. If anything, I'd say it's UNDERRATED seeing as there are many new (hell, and old) readers who have never picked it up. If you read superhero comics, you MUST read Watchmen. It's that simple. End of story. You will never enjoy sub-par comics again. Your tastes will change instantly. For the better. Watchmen is the pinnacle of superhero comics. Everything that came after is walking in its shadow.

I know, when I read Watchmen, and then I read Maximum Carnage, I was like: "What is this crap?".

For me, Moore almost killed comics, because after I read his greatest stuff, everything else just seemed lesser, or just not intresting.

 

[Zeb Oswalt]

I have to go with Moore he writes some of the best messed up bizarre stories and he can also write some Great Super Man Stories. He can write both ends of the spectrum and write them well. Thanx for your time.

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

While I loved Sandman (all of it ), imo, Moore's run on swamp thing is THE pinnacle of american comic books. I've yet to read a run (I'm talking run here, not mini like Watchmen, etc) that equals (much less surpass) Alan Moore's phenomenal run on swampy the vegetable.

Then there's Watchmen, V for Vendetta and all of his older mini series, which, really, I don't have to talk about, their names only say it all.

If that wasn't enough, he made two of the best batman and superman stories: The killing joke (imo, the best batman comic of all time) and whatever happened to the man of tomorrow (which was such a great way to end such a huge saga).

He made fabulous comics 20 years ago, and he's STILL doing awesome work today. From Tom Strong to LXG to his soap opera Top ten, Moore might be the most versatile writer in comics of all time.

And so, all of this combine means Moore > Gaiman.

 

[Elijya]

While I loved Sandman (all of it ), imo, Moore's run on swamp thing is THE pinnacle of american comic books.

um,. but he's british....

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

um,. but he's british....

But not the comic. So, what's that got to do with my statement ?

 

[Elijya]

I'd argue that that makes teh comic of british origin, especially since I believe a number of teh artists on his run were british, too

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

I'd argue that that makes teh comic of british origin, especially since I believe a number of teh artists on his run were british, too

So, i'm guessing Face-off is a chinese movie, since John Woo is chinese.

Edit: No matter the origin of the writers/artists, this is an AMERICAN comic book. Don't change facts.

I'm guessing if Spider-man was written by a chinese writer and a british artist, it wouldn't be american ? Guess what, if we go by that logic, few comics truly are american.

 

[Elijya]

you're twisting things. Woo is just a director, only a part of the production of a movie, and moore is a comicbook writer, a full half of the creation of the comic, and arguably moreso, since he controls the story

but I agree, it doesn't hold up. I certainly don't think of preacher as a british comic, despite both garth and steve being british. probably because the subject matter is so american

I dunno, moore just kinda pervades every aspect of whatever he writes, often causing me to identify it as an "alan moore comic", and vis-a-vis, a british comic.

so what determine's a comics' nationality? where it's published? that doesn't sound right

Edit: No matter the origin of the writers/artists, this is an AMERICAN comic book. Don't change facts.
QUOTE]

um, what fact did I change?

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

you're twisting things. Woo is just a director, only a part of the production of a movie, and moore is a comicbook writer, a full half of the creation of the comic, and arguably moreso, since he controls the story

but I agree, it doesn't hold up. I certainly don't think of preacher as a british comic, despite both garth and steve being british. probably because the subject matter is so american

I dunno, moore just kinda pervades every aspect of whatever he writes, often causing me to identify it as an "alan moore comic", and vis-a-vis, a british comic.

so what determine's a comics' nationality? where it's published? that doesn't sound right

Edit: No matter the origin of the writers/artists, this is an AMERICAN comic book. Don't change facts.
QUOTE]

um, what fact did I change?

The fact it's an american comic book.

But yes, I do agree, when I read an Alan Moore comic, it's always because I want to read an "alan moore" comic, rather than a character title or whatever else.
And yes, i'd argue that the place where the "book/movie/comic" is publish is the nationality of the product. Moore writes for an american audience, with an american character and under an american publisher. That's what determine's this comics' nationality.

 

[Marc]

V for vendetta is indeed marvellous (i dare say it resonates stronger for us because we're in the UK).

BUT read watchmen again.

and if you still think it's over-rated..... read it again.

I have.. a friend said that to me as well as If I missed a big secret the first time, I still think it is quite poor compared to other stuff he has done. I thought LoTR was quite a poor book, so I know opinions I have are not always going to be in the majority. And I know re-reading it again and again isn't going to magically change my perception on anything (unless you put weight into that pirate tosh).

Cobra - Please don't speak for everyone, I certainly didn't appoint you to speak for me. I definitely did not think Watchman was the pinnacle of comics or anywhere close. I'd even rate stuff like the killing joke higher. The world certainly didn't change in front of me or anything. That kind of story has been told before and better in my opinion, not having to rely on monsters to do it. With what I consider deus ex machina's in certain parts. I thought it was ok, though I think V for Vendetta was far far superior. Maybe just me though.

 

[CobraCommander]

Killing Joke higher than Watchmen? Wow. You sir ARE misguided. Even Mr. Moore doesn't like Killing Joke. I thought it was ok. But I really didn't see the point in it at all. Whereas Watchmen touches on more topics than I can even name. Politics, superheroes, the real world, the comics medium as a whole, war, peace... It's all in there.

If you think that the kind of story Watchmen told has been told better somewhere else, I challenge you to name where. Give me the name of the book, and I'll gladly check it out. If you can name a book with as much substance, depth, commentary, realism, and re-readablility as Watchmen, then I will stand corrected.

 

[Marc]

Killing Joke higher than Watchmen? Wow. You sir ARE misguided. Even Mr. Moore doesn't like Killing Joke. I thought it was ok. But I really didn't see the point in it at all. Whereas Watchmen touches on more topics than I can even name. Politics, superheroes, the real world, the comics medium as a whole, war, peace... It's all in there.

If you think that the kind of story Watchmen told has been told better somewhere else, I challenge you to name where. Give me the name of the book, and I'll gladly check it out. If you can name a book with as much substance, depth, commentary, realism, and re-readablility as Watchmen, then I will stand corrected.

Not really, its not like the killing joke is in my top ten reads or anything either. Watchman may touch upon various topics, and genre's but it doesn't go anywhere with it... it thinks it does but I realy don't see where. The characters don't go anywhere, don't change, don't evolve, don't react in a 'real world' way and the end is extremely contrived. Its like he wrote this story not knowing the end, ran out of idea's and threw in some tosh about you know.

A story of the ends justifies the means? I can name episodes from TV shows with more weight, insight, character development etc.. Just about every series does some form of storyline about that. I'm sure even That 70's show accomplishes this. I already named some, I have yet to see where watchman has depth (where? I mean really... are you refering to the secret villain or something), realism (LOL!), commentary (what commentary is that, that humans need to be lied to in order to control... uhuh), re-readability (it revolves around the secret indentity of the villain, for me that does not make it re-readable) and you and I both know that I can name things all day and you will obviously detract from each one. If only for the purpose of proving your statement correct in your eyes.

A few examples of ends justifies the means stories (stuff you're likely to have read/seen) -

Kingdom come: Superheroes taking charge for the good of people.
V for Vendetta: Terrorism and killing to win a thread of freedom.
Preacher: Got someone to rip his genetalia off and stick it up his arse on the road to getting God to be held accountable.

Taking Kingdom come as an example. Depth wise you have a whole universe there, characters in every panel with their own history and story. Politics wise it goes over the idea of power and corruption in a much more realistic way than watchman. Real world wise, well as fantastical as it all was it wasn't as absurd as watchman (again the end, although stuff like the owl... c'mon). Commentary wise it has the same kind of message as above, a little more in-depth with the social commentary of the world around it as it actually involves human beings and the consequences. Which in watchman is only really looked at in the end and very briefly. As for rereading, as I said the key in watchman is the 'mysterious' villain behind things... once thats gone for you the rest of the story is rather bland. Like the rather poor attempt at love/romance/sex. Or the fact that these losers are supposed to be superheroes which is extremely hard to swallow. Then there's the remarkable character development of people like Dr Manhatten who by the end of the story are *gasp* no different. I felt that the only REAL character (as in background, purpose, depth, reason, evolvement, interaction etc.) was Rorschach. Even then at the end of the day he was a guy with an ink blot on his face, with a hat and coat who was angry (or over the top) a lot of the time. Various comics have more depth for the simple fact that they have history and have been through a butt-load of experiences. Stuff like Fables has more depth because it uses characters we know about and puts those things in a different concept.

Again though, I appreciate that I am very much in the minority in this... I just don't think it was anything special. I would expect that kind of story in an outer limits or twilight zone episode.

 

[Dr. Doomsday]

Having read 1602 and Watchmen, I can say with my own personal convictions that it is not possible to judge one better than the other. They both approach the same subject material, the superhero myth, and they go about it in different ways. 1602 is Marvel set in the past, and identifiably Marvel. Watchmen is a graphic novel about superheroes in the real world. Very different things, for me there is no comparison. As for who's better, Moore by far. Read League, Vol. II and tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Elijya]

you're wrong

 

[Lazarus440]

i picked moore because i thought it was a fight and damn have to seen him the guy looks like he lives in a cave and would kill you with his hands.

 

[primemover]

Moore, for his older work, but also for his newer work, I loves me some Tom Strong, Promethea, Tomorrow Stories, Terra Obscura, and TOP FREAKIN' TEN!

 

[Lackey]

Moore, for his older work, but also for his newer work, I loves me some Tom Strong, Promethea, Tomorrow Stories, Terra Obscure, and TOP FREAKIN' TEN!

 

[dbzmom]

Neil Gaimen - I love Sandman

 

[Sandman138]

You get one guess.

 

[rigel7soldiers]

In a fight to the death, Moore wiins. that beard is like a black hole. If you look into it, it will eat you very soul.

 

[The Question]

This is such a hard decision. But in the end, I've got to go with Gaiman. And then, I only think he's better by a veryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery veryveryveryveryveryveryveryvery

VERY small bit.