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The Last Jedi Daisy Ridley as Rey (VIII)

Growing up with the Kenner toys I'm still waiting for someone in a live action to have a yellow saber like my Luke figure had :)
 
If I were a Jedi, I'd want an obnoxiously bright neon rainbow blade. :funny:
 
Damnit Darth, I didn't need to cry...

Here's something to cheer you up

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In my top 5 Graham Norton moments. Love it so.
 
I feel like that joke might have gone over Daisy's head until the last second. :funny:
 
I want more green blades, personally.

I'm really looking forward to seeing Luke's green blade in the new film. The blue blade in TFA was gorgeous in those night scenes. I love what Abrams did with the blades being so vibrant and them giving off a lot of light that lit up the user and surrounding environment. Luke wielding his green blade at night on Ahch-to is gonna be :hmr:. If Rian Johnson ditches the bright vibrant effect and goes back to the old style blades that don't cast their light around as vibrantly I'm gonna be so disappointed.
 
I don't really think they will bother switching back to the older style blades. The change in the blade styles was probably more due to advances in special effects more than anything else so I can't see them being such a big fan of the older aesthetic that they would want to switch back. New special effects allows them to have fights where the actors are holding actual light sources which allows for far more exciting visuals, so I can't them wanting to loose that.
 
I'm really looking forward to seeing Luke's green blade in the new film. The blue blade in TFA was gorgeous in those night scenes. I love what Abrams did with the blades being so vibrant and them giving off a lot of light that lit up the user and surrounding environment. Luke wielding his green blade at night on Ahch-to is gonna be :hmr:. If Rian Johnson ditches the bright vibrant effect and goes back to the old style blades that don't cast their light around as vibrantly I'm gonna be so disappointed.

Agreed! I want all the light and vibrancy of the new blades, and maintain the heavy fight style JJ brought back from the OT. Luke's lightsaber noises should sound just as they did in RotJ, too (or a mix of those and the new TFA ones).
 
Not to jump ship, but Daisy said Rey's parents are in the movie... So.. looks like Kylo and Rey may actually be spins on Jacen and Jaina Solo.. either that or Luke and Maz had her haha
 
Not to jump ship, but Daisy said Rey's parents are in the movie... So.. looks like Kylo and Rey may actually be spins on Jacen and Jaina Solo.. either that or Luke and Maz had her haha

They're all playing games (some handcuffed by NDA or other obligation like Abrams feels he owes Rian Johnson) when answering questions which is so typical of these big productions to avoid directly revealing the future and hitting the bullseye on the dartboard.

To me the sequel trilogy works best as a Shakespearean type of tragedy where the hero meets her family as they meet their demise. Her ultimate belonging will be with the Jedi, because going back to halcyon days of the family is impossible.

0) Halcyon days of the mother, father, and son and daughter
1) Daughter 'died' (backstory) and is reborn as 'Rey'
2) Son is sent away from the mother and father to the Jedi uncle
3) Son 'died' (backstory) and is reborn as 'Kylo Ren'
4) Mother and father become estranged
5) 'Rey' is swept up into events of galactic importance
6) 'Rey' meets the father
7) 'Rey' meets 'Kylo Ren' and they have many antagonistic encounters
8) 'Kylo Ren' kills the father
9) 'Rey' meets the mother
10) 'Rey' is sent away to the Jedi uncle
11) Mother's fate isn't looking so rosy in the future

TFA final cut said:
HAN: There’s nothing more we could have done. There’s too much Vader in him.
LEIA: That’s why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just never should have sent him away. That’s when I lost him. (pause) That’s when I lost you both. (pause)
HAN: We both had to deal with it in our own way. I went back to the only thing I was ever any good at.
LEIA: We both did.
HAN: We lost our son. Forever.

how to twist this dialogue 'Christopher Nolan style' said:
HAN: There’s nothing more you and I could have done. There’s too much Vader in Ben.
LEIA: That’s why I wanted Ben to train with Luke. I just never should have sent Ben away. That’s when I lost Ben. (pause) That’s when I lost you and Ben both. (pause)
HAN: Ben and I both had to deal with her death in our own way. I went back to the only thing I was ever any good at.
LEIA: You and I both did.
HAN: You and I lost our son. Forever.

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The other thing we learn in TFA is that Rey is Kylo Ren's equal in the Force. Which makes sense when they are both cut from the same cloth.
 
if Rey was a Solo, then I think Leia and Han would have discussed losing a daughter and not just their son when discussing their "failed" family and why Leia and Han drifted apart. but they made no mention of a daughter.

true, failure to mention a daughter does not mean Rey can't be a Solo kid. it just makes it less likely, imo.

I felt she had more connection with Luke, and that's why I feel she's Luke's kid. especially the deal about the blue saber passing from one father ( Vader ) to his son ( Luke ) and now to Rey. So, Grandfather -> Father -> Daughter.

true, it could still work if Luke was her Uncle, but the "symbolism" of that lineage isn't as strong or powerful, imo. Grandfather -> Uncle -> Niece.
 
No matter how much fans want it, I can't buy the idea that Rey is Han and Leia's daughter.
 
before TFA came out, I was pretty certain that she was Han and Leia's, with Kylo being her brother as a nod to the Jaina/Jacen characters.

but after seeing TFA, my opinion switched to her being Luke's.
 
Luke or Leia's, I just want her to be a Skywalker.
 
Luke or Leia's, I just want her to be a Skywalker.

Luke's daughter, She has the Skywalker mannerisms as well as a familiar path like Luke's.
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less we forget the teaser voice over that recites "The Force is strong in my Family"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngElkyQ6Rhs

interesting to note the difference that Maz hands the lightsaber to Leia in this trailer, but in the final film it's given to Finn.
 
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Luke or Leia's, I just want her to be a Skywalker.

Luke's daughter, She has the Skywalker mannerisms as well as a familiar path like Luke's.
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yep.

the main storyline should be about the Skywalker bloodline.

it would just feel weird if the only new Skywalker, Kylo, is the villain. I mean, it would be a "twist" on the story, but it just wouldn't feel right.

the main hero ( or heroine in this case ) should also be part of the Skywalker bloodline. if for no other reason to balance out Kylo's darkness. Vader's darkness was balanced by his children's light. His grandson Kylo's darkness needs to be balanced out, otherwise the Skywalker's current legacy will be tainted by Kylo's villainy. True, Kylo could always redeem himself by the end of the trilogy ( though killing your father point blank is kind of hard to come back from ). But Kylo is not being set up as the "anti-hero" of the new trilogy. He's the villain. Rey is the new hero.

plus, that would symbolically represent Vader's dual nature and his legacy - the battle between Light and Dark lives on in his grandchildren.

also, thematically, look what happened in TFA. Kylo inherited Vader's dark side and he even has Vader's charred helmet which he worships.

Rey "inherited" Vader's original blue saber, which represents his time as Anakin when he was good.

when confronted by his father, Kylo refused to give up power ( his saber ) and killed his father. when confronting Luke, Rey willingly gives up the saber ( power ) back to Luke.

so, thematically, they are already setting up the legacy of Vader being carried on in Kylo and Rey - they even have their respective "artifacts." As such, it would have way more meaning if Kylo/Rey are Vader's grandkids, either as siblings or as cousins.
 
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They're all playing games (some handcuffed by NDA or other obligation like Abrams feels he owes Rian Johnson) when answering questions which is so typical of these big productions to avoid directly revealing the future and hitting the bullseye on the dartboard.

To me the sequel trilogy works best as a Shakespearean type of tragedy where the hero meets her family as they meet their demise. Her ultimate belonging will be with the Jedi, because going back to halcyon days of the family is impossible.

0) Halcyon days of the mother, father, and son and daughter
1) Daughter 'died' (backstory) and is reborn as 'Rey'
2) Son is sent away from the mother and father to the Jedi uncle
3) Son 'died' (backstory) and is reborn as 'Kylo Ren'
4) Mother and father become estranged
5) 'Rey' is swept up into events of galactic importance
6) 'Rey' meets the father
7) 'Rey' meets 'Kylo Ren' and they have many antagonistic encounters
8) 'Kylo Ren' kills the father
9) 'Rey' meets the mother
10) 'Rey' is sent away to the Jedi uncle
11) Mother's fate isn't looking so rosy in the future





108lq4.jpg


127aa3.jpg


GfGjW6Ql.jpg


The other thing we learn in TFA is that Rey is Kylo Ren's equal in the Force. Which makes sense when they are both cut from the same cloth.

If Rey was Leia and Han's daughter it would have come up in Bloodline. Leia never once mentions or even thinks about a daughter. Only Ben.
 
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If Rey was Leia and Han's daughter it would have come up in Bloodline. Leia never once mentions or even thinks about a daughter. Only Ben.

The novel author said she wasn't privy to the future plans about Rey's parentage and they (Lucasfilm) aren't putting the big future movie spoilers/reveals in the books (i.e. the first Aftermath book withheld that Han and Leia were married and that Leia was pregnant at the time. It wasn't until the second book that it was integrated into the plot.) See also: New York Comic Con panel with Lucasfilm's Michael Siglain and Pablo Hidalgo and the author of Bloodline. See also: Princess Leia Royal Rebel book that says there's missing records about the life of Leia after the events of ROTJ and before the events of The Force Awakens.
 
Episode VII was an attempt to recreate the structure of the OT. Abrams and Kasdan's job was to set the table and pave the way to create a shocking reveal after their movie is over.

Abrams has to talk around what they're doing (he's said he's protecting Rian Johnson's secrets).

J. J. Abrams: “I loved how Star Wars had that sense of a world far beyond the borders of what you can see and have been told – it’s one of the things it did so brilliantly. If you watch the first movie, you don’t actually know exactly what the Empire is trying to do. They’re going to rule by fear – but you don’t know what their end game is. You don’t know what Leia is princess of. You don’t yet understand who Jabba the Hutt is, even though there is a reference to him. You don’t know that Vader is Luke’s father, Leia is his sister – but the possibility is all there. The beauty of that movie was that it was an unfamiliar world, & yet you wanted to see it expand and to see where it went.” (November 2, 2013)

J. J. Abrams: “What was incredible about Star Wars, among other things, was that in that first movie Vader could’ve been his father, but he wasn’t, you know. Leia could’ve been his sister, but she wasn’t. You didn’t really know what the Empire was up to exactly. You didn’t really understand what it meant that there was a Senate or the Dark Times or any of the references, and yet you felt the presence of all these things and you understood because it was all being referenced in a way that allowed you to fill in the blanks, and that’s a very powerful thing.” (May 6, 2015)

J. J. Abrams: “We wanted to tell a story that had its own self-contained beginning, middle, and end but at the same time, like A New Hope, implied a history that preceded it and also hinted at a future to follow. When Star Wars first came out, it was a film that both allowed the audience to understand a new story but also to infer all sorts of exciting things that might be. In that first movie, Luke wasn’t necessarily the son of Vader, he wasn’t necessarily the brother of Leia, but it was all possible. The Force Awakens has this incredible advantage, not just of a passionate fan base but also of a backstory that is familiar to a lot of people. We’ve been able to use what came before in a very organic way, because we didn’t have to reboot anything. We didn’t have to come up with a backstory that would make sense; it’s all there.” (November 2015)

J. J. Abrams: “As a fan of Star Wars, I can look at those [original trilogy] movies and both respect and love what they’ve done. But working on The Force Awakens, we’ve had to consider them in a slightly different context. For example, it’s very easy to love ‘I am your father.’ But when you think about how and when and where that came, I’m not sure that even Star Wars itself could have supported that story point had it existed in the first film, Episode IV. Meaning: It was a massively powerful, instantly classic moment in movie history, but it was only possible because it stood on the shoulders of the film that came before it. There had been a couple of years to allow the idea of Darth Vader to sink in, to let him emerge as one of the greatest movie villains ever. Time built up everyone’s expectations about the impending conflict between Luke and Vader. If ‘I am your father’ had been in the first film, I don’t know if it would have had the resonance. I actually don’t know if it would have worked.” (November 2015)

J. J. Abrams: “The most jaw-dropping-est thing to me, in retrospect, is that moment in Episode IV when Leia is being held and Vader goes in to torture her for information. When you think of it later, it’s like, ‘Oh my God, that’s his daughter.’ He’s going to torture his own daughter. At the time, it’s just scary. Then it gets just really creepy when you think about it. It’s the worst. It’s horrible.” “It is [bizarre]. But that’s what’s so amazing about Star Wars, too. The possibilities were so enormous. At the end of Star Wars, you didn’t know who was related to whom, but anything was possible. That’s what was so cool about it.” (December 9, 2015)

J. J. Abrams: “The thing about Star Wars is everyone who has seen these movies thinks, you know, ‘I am your father.’ It’s one of the first things you think about. And, ‘There is another.’ And moments like that. But when you think about those big moments and then you stop and go, oh, neither of those things were in Star Wars. You know, Star Wars didn’t say that Luke was the son of Vader. Star Wars didn’t say that Leia was the sister of Luke. You didn’t really understand what these references were. The Empire, dark times, Clone Wars. There are these things that are discussed that don’t get explained. It was Episode IV. You know, George, among the unbelievable list of brilliant things he did, dropped you into a story and respected you and said, ‘You will infer everything necessary to understand exactly what you need to know.’ And that’s what we tried to do with this. We knew we were going to have a moment when Snoke was going to say to Ren, ‘Your dad’s in the picture.’ Can this movie actually also hold, you know, ‘And Rey is this and Finn is that and this is where Poe…’? It was one of those things, and again it speaks to your restraint…Look, this is the first, this is an opportunity of a lifetime to write a movie that is the first of a series, and there is a story to be told. And it will be. But this movie, it felt like ‘the droid is in the hands of your father, Han Solo’ was probably the one real revelatory familial piece we could get away with.” (December 22, 2015)

J. J. Abrams: “[What does Star Wars mean to me?] […] When you look at Star Wars, it is unbelievable how much they got right. Not just the story and the characters and the casting. Not just the design, not just the music. All of it. When you look at all of it, you realize how much was nailed…even the references to things that happened off-camera. The things you don’t know. You don’t know so much in that movie, like what the Empire wants or the possibility that Darth Vader is Luke’s father, or that Leia is Luke’s sister. All these things exist, but none are explicit. Yet, it has that sense that this world is real and exists and is expansive. […]” “Star Wars is many things. At the core, it’s this family saga. It’s a family drama. It is about finding your own strength and finding connections with people you wouldn’t anticipate knowing. It’s about secrets and causes and joining something larger than yourself. Good and evil. […]” (Star Wars Insider magazine #162 January 2016 issue – released: December 22, 2015)

J. J. Abrams: “[Who are Rey’s parents?] Get out! Get out! Rey’s parents are not in Episode VII. So I can’t possibly – in this moment – tell you who they are. But I will say, that it is… this is all I’ll say: it is something that Rey thinks about, too.” (April 15, 2016) “What I meant was that she doesn’t discover them in Episode VII. Not that they may not already be in her world.” (April 15, 2016)

OT/PT → ST
Darth Vader (villain father) → Kylo Ren (villain brother)
Luke (brother) → Rey (sister)
Leia (sister) → Han (father)
Padmé (mother) → Leia (mother)
Obi-Wan*/Yoda (mentor) → Luke (uncle – mentor)

* Obi-Wan was also kind of like the brother-in-law to Anakin & Padmé (Episode III) like Luke is to Han and Leia. Obi-Wan watched over and trained Luke like an uncle.

To recreate the structure of the original trilogy....

IV - Luke's bogus family story (Luke: my dad was a spice freighter navigator! Obi-Wan: Your dad was a Jedi murdered by Vader. )
V - The implausible based on the previous film becomes possible with no explanation to the audience (Vader: No, I am your father, Luke!)

VI - Even more implausible based on the previous films becomes reality as things are finally explained to the audience (Obi-Wan: Sorry dude we hid you and your sister away from your psycho dad. Luke: Leia is my sister. I've been kissed by my sister!)

...could play out this way:

VII - Rey's bogus family story (Rey: I'm waiting on Jakku for my family to come back to Jakku.)
VIII - The implausible based on the previous film becomes possible with no explanation to the audience (Rey is Kylo Ren's sister)
IX - Even more implausible based on the previous films becomes reality as things are finally explained to the audience
 
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The novel author said she wasn't privy to the future plans about Rey's parentage and they (Lucasfilm) aren't putting the big future movie spoilers/reveals in the books (i.e. the first Aftermath book withheld that Han and Leia were married and that Leia was pregnant at the time. It wasn't until the second book that it was integrated into the plot.) See also: New York Comic Con panel with Lucasfilm's Michael Siglain and Pablo Hidalgo and the author of Bloodline. See also: Princess Leia Royal Rebel book that says there's missing records about the life of Leia after the events of ROTJ and before the events of The Force Awakens.

The Lucasfilm Story Group over saw the writing of that book and wouldnt have allowed the author to have Leia act and think like she only has one child if she had another. Rey isnt Leia or Han's kid.
 
The Lucasfilm Story Group over saw the writing of that book and wouldnt have allowed the author to have Leia act and think like she only has one child if she had another. Rey isnt Leia or Han's kid.

The absence of a direct reference to a daughter doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. Jyn Erso didn't exist in the Star Wars canon as the thief of the Death Star plans until recently - Star Wars fills in the missing gaps as time goes on.

A direct reference to a daughter would have given away the future movies and Lucasfilm don't want Rey's parentage directly revealed in a book or an interview. Movies are narrative and financial priority.

It's not much different than Episode IV not saying Luke and Leia and Vader are biological family. In fact the movie says the opposite, that Luke's father is already dead.

I guess ya are going to be one of the surprised people then. :) I won't be.
 
Episode VII was an attempt to recreate the structure of the OT. Abrams and Kasdan's job was to set the table and pave the way to create a shocking reveal after their movie is over.

Abrams has to talk around what they're doing (he's said he's protecting Rian Johnson's secrets).

J. J. Abrams: “I loved how Star Wars had that sense of a world far beyond the borders of what you can see and have been told – it’s one of the things it did so brilliantly. If you watch the first movie, you don’t actually know exactly what the Empire is trying to do. They’re going to rule by fear – but you don’t know what their end game is. You don’t know what Leia is princess of. You don’t yet understand who Jabba the Hutt is, even though there is a reference to him. You don’t know that Vader is Luke’s father, Leia is his sister – but the possibility is all there. The beauty of that movie was that it was an unfamiliar world, & yet you wanted to see it expand and to see where it went.” (November 2, 2013)

J. J. Abrams: “What was incredible about Star Wars, among other things, was that in that first movie Vader could’ve been his father, but he wasn’t, you know. Leia could’ve been his sister, but she wasn’t. You didn’t really know what the Empire was up to exactly. You didn’t really understand what it meant that there was a Senate or the Dark Times or any of the references, and yet you felt the presence of all these things and you understood because it was all being referenced in a way that allowed you to fill in the blanks, and that’s a very powerful thing.” (May 6, 2015)

J. J. Abrams: “We wanted to tell a story that had its own self-contained beginning, middle, and end but at the same time, like A New Hope, implied a history that preceded it and also hinted at a future to follow. When Star Wars first came out, it was a film that both allowed the audience to understand a new story but also to infer all sorts of exciting things that might be. In that first movie, Luke wasn’t necessarily the son of Vader, he wasn’t necessarily the brother of Leia, but it was all possible. The Force Awakens has this incredible advantage, not just of a passionate fan base but also of a backstory that is familiar to a lot of people. We’ve been able to use what came before in a very organic way, because we didn’t have to reboot anything. We didn’t have to come up with a backstory that would make sense; it’s all there.” (November 2015)

J. J. Abrams: “As a fan of Star Wars, I can look at those [original trilogy] movies and both respect and love what they’ve done. But working on The Force Awakens, we’ve had to consider them in a slightly different context. For example, it’s very easy to love ‘I am your father.’ But when you think about how and when and where that came, I’m not sure that even Star Wars itself could have supported that story point had it existed in the first film, Episode IV. Meaning: It was a massively powerful, instantly classic moment in movie history, but it was only possible because it stood on the shoulders of the film that came before it. There had been a couple of years to allow the idea of Darth Vader to sink in, to let him emerge as one of the greatest movie villains ever. Time built up everyone’s expectations about the impending conflict between Luke and Vader. If ‘I am your father’ had been in the first film, I don’t know if it would have had the resonance. I actually don’t know if it would have worked.” (November 2015)

J. J. Abrams: “The most jaw-dropping-est thing to me, in retrospect, is that moment in Episode IV when Leia is being held and Vader goes in to torture her for information. When you think of it later, it’s like, ‘Oh my God, that’s his daughter.’ He’s going to torture his own daughter. At the time, it’s just scary. Then it gets just really creepy when you think about it. It’s the worst. It’s horrible.” “It is [bizarre]. But that’s what’s so amazing about Star Wars, too. The possibilities were so enormous. At the end of Star Wars, you didn’t know who was related to whom, but anything was possible. That’s what was so cool about it.” (December 9, 2015)

J. J. Abrams: “The thing about Star Wars is everyone who has seen these movies thinks, you know, ‘I am your father.’ It’s one of the first things you think about. And, ‘There is another.’ And moments like that. But when you think about those big moments and then you stop and go, oh, neither of those things were in Star Wars. You know, Star Wars didn’t say that Luke was the son of Vader. Star Wars didn’t say that Leia was the sister of Luke. You didn’t really understand what these references were. The Empire, dark times, Clone Wars. There are these things that are discussed that don’t get explained. It was Episode IV. You know, George, among the unbelievable list of brilliant things he did, dropped you into a story and respected you and said, ‘You will infer everything necessary to understand exactly what you need to know.’ And that’s what we tried to do with this. We knew we were going to have a moment when Snoke was going to say to Ren, ‘Your dad’s in the picture.’ Can this movie actually also hold, you know, ‘And Rey is this and Finn is that and this is where Poe…’? It was one of those things, and again it speaks to your restraint…Look, this is the first, this is an opportunity of a lifetime to write a movie that is the first of a series, and there is a story to be told. And it will be. But this movie, it felt like ‘the droid is in the hands of your father, Han Solo’ was probably the one real revelatory familial piece we could get away with.” (December 22, 2015)

J. J. Abrams: “[What does Star Wars mean to me?] […] When you look at Star Wars, it is unbelievable how much they got right. Not just the story and the characters and the casting. Not just the design, not just the music. All of it. When you look at all of it, you realize how much was nailed…even the references to things that happened off-camera. The things you don’t know. You don’t know so much in that movie, like what the Empire wants or the possibility that Darth Vader is Luke’s father, or that Leia is Luke’s sister. All these things exist, but none are explicit. Yet, it has that sense that this world is real and exists and is expansive. […]” “Star Wars is many things. At the core, it’s this family saga. It’s a family drama. It is about finding your own strength and finding connections with people you wouldn’t anticipate knowing. It’s about secrets and causes and joining something larger than yourself. Good and evil. […]” (Star Wars Insider magazine #162 January 2016 issue – released: December 22, 2015)

OT/PT → ST
Darth Vader (villain father) → Kylo Ren (villain brother)
Luke (brother) → Rey (sister)
Leia (sister) → Han (father)
Padmé (mother) → Leia (mother)
Obi-Wan*/Yoda (mentor) → Luke (uncle – mentor)

* Obi-Wan was also kind of like the brother-in-law to Anakin & Padmé (Episode III) like Luke is to Han and Leia. Obi-Wan watched over and trained Luke like an uncle.

To recreate the structure of the original trilogy....

IV - Luke's bogus family story (Luke: my dad was a spice freighter navigator! Obi-Wan: Your dad was a Jedi murdered by Vader. )
V - The implausible based on the previous film becomes possible with no explanation to the audience (Vader: No, I am your father, Luke!)

VI - Even more implausible based on the previous films becomes reality as things are finally explained to the audience (Obi-Wan: Sorry dude we hid you and your sister away from your psycho dad. Luke: Leia is my sister. I've been kissed by my sister!)

...could play out this way:

VII - Rey's bogus family story (Rey: I'm waiting on Jakku for my family to come back to Jakku.)
VIII - The implausible based on the previous film becomes possible with no explanation to the audience (Rey is Kylo Ren's sister)
IX - Even more implausible based on the previous films becomes reality as things are finally explained to the audience


That's an interesting post. Really like your analysis on it.

I've said that before that TFA deliberately hides a lot of the story. Even in the commentary JJ talks about the things that were cut to save for later. It will be interesting to see the trilogy in it's entirety. And how VIII and IX completely transform the context of TFA.

This post alone gets me so excited for this year. Good post Mag!
 
Y'all still trying to figure whose Rey's paarents/father is/are? I thought it was kind of obvious. I say Luke is Rey's father. As for her mother, someone suggested Ben/Obi Wan's daughter? If that's the case, then it makes sense. If Rey parents are Han and Leia, than that's too easy and feels like a repeat. We had father vs son, and now would be cousin vs cousin. Brother vs sister is too similar to father vs son. That's just my opinion.
 

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