The Last Jedi Daisy Ridley as Rey (VIII)

[Spider-Fan]

That doesn't make sense. That is a completely different issue Snoke's presence shows isn't an issue at all. The Emperor, Obi-Wan and Yoda already showed that. Luke's students show this.

But the only family that DOES matter is the Skywalkers is what you're saying if Rey HAS to be a Skywalker. Otherwise if you're not a Skywalker, than Star Wars Episode _ cannot be about you. You're limiting story potential. I know Jedi don't have to come from a certain bloodline, so if a Jedi can be anyone, then why can't our protagonist be anyone? Why does it all come down to being some long lost Skywalker?

The prequels were always going to be about Anakin.

We have new heroes that aren't related. Poe and Finn aren't related. The only one correctly related is the villain.

Disney and Lucasfilms themselves said the Saga movies are about the Skywalkers. They said it. Kennedy said it. JJ has said it. They set up thes expectations and continue them.

I do think for the long term health of Star Wars that will need to change. But, just within this trilogy, it is still about the Skywalkers. Rey is just Luke's spiritual successor. Not a blood relative. I think that is a more than acceptable to continue the legacy.

Okay is this a question of story or how it improves her life? Improving her life? Really easy. It shows she is loved. Story? They do this while putting her in direct conflict with Kylo. The man continually murdering all these folk, while also being her last connection to them.

She already has made new friendships with people, and no doubt there is Finn who worships her. At this point, especially if there is a time jump, she will know she is loved. I don't see this adding anything to that, either. As for direct conflict with Kylo, she already is in it with him. They're the polar opposites. They're already in opposition.

Rey's reaction to Kylo in TLJ is really weird. Its an issue I have with the film that is easily fixed if they are family, and she is desperate for family.

Actually it is weirder if they're family cause then it gives incest vibes.

Luke never sees Vader as just that. That is why the cave scene happens before he knows he is father.

Yes, and that was a lesson. But just one lesson doesn't make the light bulb instantly pop on. Plenty of Yoda's lessons went over Luke's head or he only realized what he was being taught later.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But the only family that DOES matter is the Skywalkers is what you're saying if Rey HAS to be a Skywalker. Otherwise if you're not a Skywalker, than Star Wars Episode _ cannot be about you. You're limiting story potential. I know Jedi don't have to come from a certain bloodline, so if a Jedi can be anyone, then why can't our protagonist be anyone? Why does it all come down to being some long lost Skywalker?

You are ignoring context. I never said she just had to be a Skywalker. They built to that. They said it was about the Skywalkers. They confirmed what Lucas always said. The Star Wars saga films are about the Skywalker family.

If it was all about Rey nobody, they could have said that from the start. This is what makes Rian trying to break the 4th wall really, really, really frustrating for fans who have spent a lot of time these last 4 years following these productions. Its why Magnar has so many quotes he can pull out. It is why all the allusions to Rey being a Skywalker during TFA, but in terms of marketing and the film itself, are frustrating to some if it turns out she isn't related.

This was never pulled out of nowhere. And if we are going to be honest, the multiplier for TLJ while Jumanji was still pulling in legit cash months after they were both released doesn't really help TLJ situation as something that really pleased audiences or met their expectations in certain regards.

I never wanted Luke to die. I knew if it happened it was always going to go over poorly because TFA setup a long term redemption story for him. That Rian made some of his decision making unclear didn't help. But this all lands a lot better if audience knew the lineage would continue. That the Skywalkers would still be around, and not because Kylo is there or has sex with Rey at some point.

I do think for the long term health of Star Wars that will need to change. But, just within this trilogy, it is still about the Skywalkers. Rey is just Luke's spiritual successor. Not a blood relative. I think that is a more than acceptable to continue the legacy.

Why would the Saga films not to be about the Skywalkers for the series long term health?

She already has made new friendships with people, and no doubt there is Finn who worships her. At this point, especially if there is a time jump, she will know she is loved. I don't see this adding anything to that, either. As for direct conflict with Kylo, she already is in it with him. They're the polar opposites. They're already in opposition.

You are skipping TLJ here. She should have known that in TLJ with Finn and yet the Kylo stuff happens. For no reason by the way. He does nothing to show her he is worthy of her time or a viable option to help the Resistance.

Actually it is weirder if they're family cause then it gives incest vibes.

Because of how Rian wrote it. Which is the issue. He even makes the connection between the two a product of Snoke, making their relationship artificial and yet at the heart of the movie.

Yes, and that was a lesson. But just one lesson doesn't make the light bulb instantly pop on. Plenty of Yoda's lessons went over Luke's head or he only realized what he was being taught later.

You first called Vader a one demenisonal villain. He wasn't. You then said he was to Luke. He never was that to Luke.

The cave is not a lesson from Yoda. Its the Force telling Luke what he most fears. Its not Vader or killing Vader. It is becoming Vader. It is why he was never a one dimensional villain to Luke. He is mirror of Luke's own internal struggle with the very nature of the Force. The light and the dark. It is why Vader revealing himself is such an issue. It makes the other side tempting.

This is also why the Kylo 4th Wall breaking stuff is so stupid. What is tempting about the dark side for Rey? Kylo's abs? The knowledge of who here parents are wouldn't change that. It is simply a device in the storytelling to show her as the opposite of Kylo. That does not make him worth her time or effort.

 

[Spider-Fan]

You are ignoring context. I never said she just had to be a Skywalker. They built to that. They said it was about the Skywalkers. They confirmed what Lucas always said. The Star Wars saga films are about the Skywalker family.

JJ started the saga, but he was done after Episode VII at the time. Where he was taking the story no longer mattered. If he cared about it, then he would have stayed on and did Ep 8, been a more hands on producer for Ep 8, or Lucasfilm would have just told Johnson no she must be a Skywalker. I don't think her being nothing conflicts with anything. Why does the lightsaber speak to her? Because the force willed it to. It doesn't have to be because of blood or lineage.

If it was all about Rey nobody, they could have said that from the start. This is what makes Rian trying to break the 4th wall really, really, really frustrating for fans who have spent a lot of time these last 4 years following these productions. Its why Magnar has so many quotes he can pull out. It is why all the allusions to Rey being a Skywalker during TFA, but in terms of marketing and the film itself, are frustrating to some if it turns out she isn't related.

This was never pulled out of nowhere. And if we are going to be honest, the multiplier for TLJ while Jumanji was still pulling in legit cash months after they were both released doesn't really help TLJ situation as something that really pleased audiences or met their expectations in certain regards.

I never wanted Luke to die. I knew if it happened it was always going to go over poorly because TFA setup a long term redemption story for him. That Rian made some of his decision making unclear didn't help. But this all lands a lot better if audience knew the lineage would continue. That the Skywalkers would still be around, and not because Kylo is there or has sex with Rey at some point.

Once again, his legacy shall continue given his sacrifice and Rey is his spiritual successor. Why is that not enough? Just because it goes against the expectation that was built up? Again, not reason enough to change it at this point. Rey already has everything she needs from a character perspective in regards to who she is and what her mission now is. I don't see how changing her name to Skywalker enriches the character at all in regards to story arcs.

Why would the Saga films not to be about the Skywalkers for the series long term health?

Because eventually, it will be boring and people will want something new. If you disagree, that is fine. I'm already kind of there which is why I find Rey not being one refreshing.

You are skipping TLJ here. She should have known that in TLJ with Finn and yet the Kylo stuff happens. For no reason by the way. He does nothing to show her he is worthy of her time or a viable option to help the Resistance.

Again, you're not giving me any reason from a character arc point of view to make her a Skywalker.

You first called Vader a one demenisonal villain. He wasn't. You then said he was to Luke. He never was that to Luke.

Darth, you did not read my post if you think I said Vader was one-dimensional. My post was about Luke's vision of how he saw Vader. To Luke, Vader was nothing more than a bad guy from the Empire to be toppled. He was a monster responsible for many issues in the galaxy. This was Luke's vision of him before he learned the truth. I don't know how you mixed my point up so badly, honestly.

The cave is not a lesson from Yoda. Its the Force telling Luke what he most fears. Its not Vader or killing Vader. It is becoming Vader. It is why he was never a one dimensional villain to Luke. He is mirror of Luke's own internal struggle with the very nature of the Force. The light and the dark. It is why Vader revealing himself is such an issue. It makes the other side tempting.

The cave said something about what Luke could become, not anything about Vader. That changed Luke's perception of himself. Of what he could become. But, to this point, Vader was still the bad guy and not someone to save or convert back to the light. That perception only comes once he learns who Vader is.

This is also why the Kylo 4th Wall breaking stuff is so stupid. What is tempting about the dark side for Rey? Kylo's abs? The knowledge wouldn't change that.

I see it more like the serpent who convinces Eve to eat the Apple. He is whispering in her ear to manipulate her. Feeding her what she wants to hear.

 

[Grootster]

Collider - Simon Pegg Says J.J. Abrams’ Answer to Rey’s Parentage Was Different from ‘The Last Jedi’



http://collider.com/star-wars-reys-parents-jj-abrams-answer/#simon-pegg



https://twitter.com/joshuahorowitz/status/981542307605434368

If Abrams chooses to retcon (or flat out ignore) Rey's parentage from The Last Jedi, he will be my hero. I would laugh so hard if she actually ended up being a Kenobi or something. Make it happen JJ!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

JJ started the saga, but he was done after Episode VII at the time. Where he was taking the story no longer mattered. If he cared about it, then he would have stayed on and did Ep 8, been a more hands on producer for Ep 8, or Lucasfilm would have just told Johnson no she must be a Skywalker. I don't think her being nothing conflicts with anything. Why does the lightsaber speak to her? Because the force willed it to. It doesn't have to be because of blood or lineage.

What you wrote does not speak to anything I wrote. Kennedy went along with saying it even as TLJ was in production. After it was done filming.

No one is saying anything has to have happened, we are talking about what LF and TFA said about it. It was to the point that Rian went out of his way to break the 4th wall in TLJ. Why are you ignoring that? What the marketing was showing people?

They setup the expectations. I never said she had to be anything. I am saying this whole thing did not come out of nowhere.

Once again, his legacy shall continue given his sacrifice and Rey is his spiritual successor. Why is that not enough? Just because it goes against the expectation that was built up? Again, not reason enough to change it at this point. Rey already has everything she needs from a character perspective in regards to who she is and what her mission now is. I don't see how changing her name to Skywalker enriches the character at all in regards to story arcs.

Why do you think people are upset about Luke and Rey in particular? I know that as much as I like the movie I have a pit in my stomach over it even now. I am asking you why people are upset by this?

Because eventually, it will be boring and people will want something new. If you disagree, that is fine. I'm already kind of there which is why I find Rey not being one refreshing.

You make it sound like having a different last name makes someone new and not boring? How?

Again, you're not giving me any reason from a character arc point of view to make her a Skywalker.

Because the entire first film builds to it. That what held Rey back from finding her family was waiting for them. That by leaving the past behind, to letting that matter settled, she would be awarded with her real parents. Whether that be Luke or Han and Leia.

It would tie her to Kylo in a familiar bond like Luke and Leia, but does not in a haphazard cover to avoid Luke and Leia not getting together, but in a way that could explore sibling bonds in a way Star Wars hasn't yet. And in doing so would give Rey an internal struggle that isn't crafted out of nowhere, but from watching this person she is connected to fall and not being able to stop it. To make a decision that truly diverts their paths that were at one time one in the same.

With Luke and Vader there was no such conflict, as Luke falling to the dark side would have always meant the end of Vader. Here that would not be the case, especially once Snoke was killed.

Darth, you did not read my post if you think I said Vader was one-dimensional. My post was about Luke's vision of how he saw Vader. To Luke, Vader was nothing more than a bad guy from the Empire to be toppled. He was a monster responsible for many issues in the galaxy. This was Luke's vision of him before he learned the truth. I don't know how you mixed my point up so badly, honestly.

This is what you wrote:

Luke didn't exactly come from nothing. He was nurtured by small time farmers, yes. But, his Jedi power and what makes him the galaxy's last hope largely come from his father. Yes, Luke's upbringing and is morality make him his own person, yes. But, making the Jedi as a whole limited to certain bloodlines I find limiting. Did every Jedi come from a Jedi mama and papa? Why does it have to be that way? Why can't Rey just be his spiritual successor and carry the Jedi torch without having a special last name? I just find it more inspiring if she isn't. Luke being Vader's son worked because Vader was a one-dimensional villain, and in making him his father, it challenged everything Luke thought he knew about himself and about light/dark. What really does Rey gain from being a Skywalker she doesn't already have?

Where does it say from Luke's perspective that is what Vader was? It just says Vader was a one dimensional villain.

The cave said something about what Luke could become, not anything about Vader. That changed Luke's perception of himself. Of what he could become. But, to this point, Vader was still the bad guy and not someone to save or convert back to the light. That perception only comes once he learns who Vader is.

You are talking in a way where you are mixing the audience perspective with Luke's. The cave to the audience has no context until the end of the film. But inside the story itself, it shows Luke's perception. Its his vision. It manifest from him. And that it picks Vader shows something.

Vader not being seen by Luke as redeemable before learning he is his father does not make Vader a one dimensional villain to in terms of the film or to Luke's perspective.

I see it more like the serpent who convinces Eve to eat the Apple. He is whispering in her ear to manipulate her. Feeding her what she wants to hear.

Except he doesn't tell her what she wants to hear.

 

[Spider-Fan]

What you wrote does not speak to anything I wrote. Kennedy went along with saying it even as TLJ was in production. After it was done filming.

No one is saying anything has to have happened, we are talking about what LF and TFA said about it. It was to the point that Rian went out of his way to break the 4th wall in TLJ. Why are you ignoring that? What the marketing was showing people?

They setup the expectations. I never said she had to be anything. I am saying this whole thing did not come out of nowhere.


Why do you think people are upset about Luke and Rey in particular? I know that as much as I like the movie I have a pit in my stomach over it even now. I am asking you why people are upset by this?

I understand why people are upset. My point is I do not see how it betrays what came before. It may not be what fans expected, but neither was Vadet being Luke's father at the time. Doesn't mean the progression is not logical

You make it sound like having a different last name makes someone new and not boring? How?

Simple, it gives them a different identity. I no longer have Skywalker expectation for them. Cleaner canvas to paint.

Because the entire first film builds to it. That what held Rey back from finding her family was waiting for them. That by leaving the past behind, to letting that matter settled, she would be awarded with her real parents. Whether that be Luke or Han and Leia.

It would tie her to Kylo in a familiar bond like Luke and Leia, but does not in a haphazard cover to avoid Luke and Leia not getting together, but in a way that could explore sibling bonds in a way Star Wars hasn't yet. And in doing so would give Rey an internal struggle that isn't crafted out of nowhere, but from watching this person she is connected to fall and not being able to stop it. To make a decision that truly diverts their paths that were at one time one in the same.

How would this explore siblings in any new form? She can experience that without the bonds of blood. She already did.

This is what you wrote:


Where does it say from Luke's perspective that is what Vader was? It just says Vader was a one dimensional villain.

I also say this revelation changed Luke's world perception, implying the previous statement was his previous perception. Granted, the words "Luke's perception" are not there, I implied it.

You are talking in a way where you are mixing the audience perspective with Luke's. The cave to the audience has no context until the end of the film. But inside the story itself, it shows Luke's perception. Its his vision. It manifest from him. And that it picks Vader shows something.

Vader not being seen by Luke as redeemable before learning he is his father does not make Vader a one dimensional villain to in terms of the film or to Luke's perspective.


Except he doesn't tell her what she wants to hear.

It picks Vader as a symbloic message of what Luke can become: a monster, a pawn for the darkside. Luke didn't have the context for Vader until later, so the cave's meanining changed.

As for Kylo, he saw into her head in TFA before she resisted. He knows a bit about her.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I understand why people are upset. My point is I do not see how it betrays what came before. It may not be what fans expected, but neither was Vadet being Luke's father at the time. Doesn't mean the progression is not logical

It betrays TFA and what LF was saying leading up to it and after.

More to the point, you can see how it "betrays" what came before with how Rian has to change the question Rey is looking for while hitting us with 4th wall breaking stuff. The subversion game. He is clearly baiting the audience in the film.

Simple, it gives them a different identity. I no longer have Skywalker expectation for them. Cleaner canvas to paint.

Rey Skywalker still has a different identity and would have the same exact expectations of any hero in Star Wars. To do the right thing using the abilities at their disposal.

How would this explore siblings in any new form? She can experience that without the bonds of blood. She already did.

How have they explored siblings in Star Wars canon up to now? How did Rey deal with a brother who betrayed her and her family?

I also say this revelation changed Luke's world perception, implying the previous statement was his previous perception. Granted, the words "Luke's perception" are not there, I implied it.

It picks Vader as a symbloic message of what Luke can become: a monster, a pawn for the darkside. Luke didn't have the context for Vader until later, so the cave's meanining changed.

It does change his perception. That does not mean Vader was some sort of one dimensional baddie to Luke before. And he couldn't be. He betrayed the Jedi and killed Obi-Wan and he believes his father. He was someone he knew fell to the dark side. Luke's questions to Yoda about the dark side, the cave, how he confronts Vader all show he isn't a simple Imperial baddie to overcome. He is the symbol of the dark side and one who has personal effected Luke. Luke seeks vengeance with Vader. Which is exactly what Obi-Wan wanted.

As for Kylo, he saw into her head in TFA before she resisted. He knows a bit about her.

And Rey was in his head and there is the Force connection. Which makes Kylo's attempt worse.

On another point, this also effects how Rian writes Chewie. Someone who shows clear care for Rey in TFA, but is suddenly treated as almost an intruder on Ahch-to. There is little to no interaction between him and Rey that isn't plot based. Same with Luke, which is just... yeah.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It betrays TFA and what LF was saying leading up to it and after.

More to the point, you can see how it "betrays" what came before with how Rian has to change the question Rey is looking for while hitting us with 4th wall breaking stuff. The subversion game. He is clearly baiting the audience in the film.

Johnson played off of past Star Wars plot lines, yes. But the end result I still do not feel contradicted anything

Rey Skywalker still has a different identity and would have the same exact expectations of any hero in Star Wars. To do the right thing using the abilities at their disposal.

She already is all that without it.

How have they explored siblings in Star Wars canon up to now? How did Rey deal with a brother who betrayed her and her family?

Siblings no, but they have explored that theme already with Anakin in the PT. Whether it be father, brother, nephew, cousin, etc. The idea itself was explored. It was also explored with Rey and Kylo, no family label. At this point, insert a sbiling aspect, it still is treading familiar ground.

It does change his perception. That does not mean Vader was some sort of one dimensional baddie to Luke before. And he couldn't be. He betrayed the Jedi and killed Obi-Wan and he believes his father. He was someone he knew fell to the dark side. Luke's questions to Yoda about the dark side, the cave, how he confronts Vader all show he isn't a simple Imperial baddie to overcome. He is the symbol of the dark side and one who has personal effected Luke. Luke seeks vengeance with Vader. Which is exactly what Obi-Wan wanted.

Show me any evidence of Luke saying he understands Vader any better before the reveal. Because all I ever see is Luke talking to him and attacking him like he is the villain.

nd Rey was in his head and there is the Force connection. Which makes Kylo's attempt worse.

How so? He got an insight into her, so it gave him an edge.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Johnson played off of past Star Wars plot lines, yes. But the end result I still do not feel contradicted anything

It contradicts them marketing Rey as the new Skywalker, as they marketed the film around her lineage meaning something. People don't feel frustrated and some even betrayed because they imagined this. This is the trailer for the story of the next Skywalker:

[YT]ngElkyQ6Rhs[/YT]

And to another point. Because I feel like you are bypassing that these are movies for an audience. Ones invested over 40 years at this point. Let's forget about how some may or may not feel about the prequels as films. What we had before TLJ is a 7 film saga that started with Luke Skywalker, robbed of his family. At the end of RotJ we are left with the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, leaving his two children with peace and purpose. Leia was with Han. Luke was going to rebuild the Jedi. The Skywalker legacy would continue. Luke, through Anakin, proved it should.

At the end of TFA we were left with Kylo, a villain, who slayed his father who was trying to save him. We had this young woman Rey, a Skywalker in all but name only at this point, finding Luke Skywalker. The Jedi and Skywalker legacy would endure. There was hope. Then TLJ. Where if we take it as gospel the Skywalker bloodline must end unless we somehow redeem Kylo and get him laid.

I am not saying everything needs to have a happy ending. But if this is where they are taking the Skywalker bloodline in what would theoretically be their final story, is it odd that this might be seen as a problem. Especially with killing off Luke before he established a new Jedi Order, and no children. With what happened to Carrie. With what Kylo is.

She already is all that without it.

I am confused. You seem to not understand this hurts your argument. She could be all that and a Skywalker. It would change nothing using your theory.

Siblings no, but they have explored that theme already with Anakin in the PT. Whether it be father, brother, nephew, cousin, etc. The idea itself was explored. It was also explored with Rey and Kylo, no family label. At this point, insert a sbiling aspect, it still is treading familiar ground.

That isn't the same thing at all which is why it got entirely sexualized.

Show me any evidence of Luke saying he understands Vader any better before the reveal. Because all I ever see is Luke talking to him and attacking him like he is the villain.

Why does Luke need to understand Vader any better for him to not be a one dimensional villain to Luke?

How so? He got an insight into her, so it gave him an edge.

By proving he clearly understood nothing about Rey as not only did it not work, it backfired. He clearly had no knowledge of TFA while exploring her "memories".

Then again, this goes back to Rian not really writing a sequel to TFA or the 6 other saga films to come before. Because he writes more then a few characters... well out of character. It is definitely not the natural transition between Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. He definitely had a handle of Luke, Leia, BB-8, Hux and Kylo. After that, not so sure. See what JJ does.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It contradicts them marketing Rey as the new Skywalker, as they marketed the film around her lineage meaning something. People don't feel frustrated and some even betrayed because they imagined this. This is the trailer for the story of the next Skywalker:

[YT]ngElkyQ6Rhs[/YT]

And to another point. Because I feel like you are bypassing that these are movies for an audience. Ones invested over 40 years at this point. Let's forget about how some may or may not feel about the prequels as films. What we had before TLJ is a 7 film saga that started with Luke Skywalker, robbed of his family. At the end of RotJ we are left with the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, leaving his two children with peace and purpose. Leia was with Han. Luke was going to rebuild the Jedi. The Skywalker legacy would continue. Luke, through Anakin, proved it should.

At the end of TFA we were left with Kylo, a villain, who slayed his father who was trying to save him. We had this young woman Rey, a Skywalker in all but name only at this point, finding Luke Skywalker. The Jedi and Skywalker legacy would endure. There was hope. Then TLJ. Where if we take it as gospel the Skywalker bloodline must end unless we somehow redeem Kylo and get him laid.

I am not saying everything needs to have a happy ending. But if this is where they are taking the Skywalker bloodline in what would theoretically be their final story, is it odd that this might be seen as a problem. Especially with killing off Luke before he established a new Jedi Order, and no children. With what happened to Carrie. With what Kylo is.

As for the marketing, she is the new Luke equivalent, but nothing in anything said she is Luke or Leia's baby. He lineage was left intentionally mysterious for future filmmakers. I can see where it was read that way by many, but that still does not make it truth.

I am confused. You seem to not understand this hurts your argument. She could be all that and a Skywalker. It would change nothing using your theory.

No, it enhances it because a change should progress a character. If it adds nothing at this point, then it shouldn't be done. Otherwise, you are no longer doing it for an artistic reason. Rey being Rey Skywalker adds nothing to her character at this point. There is no point in revisiting it. Just move on and tell a new story.

Why does Luke need to understand Vader any better for him to not be a one dimensional villain to Luke?

Really? You don't think understanding someone makes it easier to not simply label them a certain way? If you think that Darth, then no point in arguing it further

By proving he clearly understood nothing about Rey as not only did it not work, it backfired. He clearly had no knowledge of TFA while exploring her "memories".

He lost in the end but that doesn't change my point.

 

[wampa1]

Rey being a Skywalker is Anakin building 3PO levels of fan-wanky nonsense.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

John Williams: I always have to think [when] we talk about Star Wars, doing the first film in 1977 none of us had any idea that there would be a second film. And I don't think that George Lucas had that idea in his mind either. So it's developed in the most amazing way. The families...Rey's parents might be identified to us in the next film.

Host: I hope so.

John Williams: I hope so, too.

Host: I assume they're pretty extraordinary - not just what somebody tried to tell her - that they were just anonymous people who died in the desert.

John Williams: Yes.

Host: I don't really believe that.

John Williams: I don't believe it either.

http://www.jwfan.com/?p=10585 (February 15, 2018)

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Did we really get the truth about Rey's parents in TLJ though? Kylo Ren was clearly trying to break Rey down and **** with her emotionally and mentally (and he's not the most stable or clear headed of individuals either). What makes anyone think his words about her parents were the whole truth?

I am completely fine with her parents not being a "name" in Star Wars, like a Skywalker or anything like that though.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Did we really get the truth about Rey's parents in TLJ though? Kylo Ren was clearly trying to break Rey down and **** with her emotionally and mentally (and he's not the most stable or clear headed of individuals either). What makes anyone think his words about her parents were the whole truth?

I am completely fine with her parents not being a "name" in Star Wars, like a Skywalker or anything like that though.

We'll see how JJ decides to build on it. Frankly, I hope they don't revisit it. I feel like that is taking a step backward if we do. We've covered her lineage now for 2 films, and I would rather Episode IX be its own movie, as opposed to something that keeps revisiting the same plot threads. My hope is they don't address her parents again at all and just move on to something else. The last thing Episode IX needs to do IMO is be a vehicle to just undo what people didn't like about Episode VIII. It will bog the movie down, and I would rather just see them do their best to make Episode IX awesome. I feel like they have a blank canvas for it, so use it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

As for the marketing, she is the new Luke equivalent, but nothing in anything said she is Luke or Leia's baby. He lineage was left intentionally mysterious for future filmmakers. I can see where it was read that way by many, but that still does not make it truth.

Did you watch the trailer? Who is Luke referencing? Kylo? A non-family member? Seriously?

No, it enhances it because a change should progress a character. If it adds nothing at this point, then it shouldn't be done. Otherwise, you are no longer doing it for an artistic reason. Rey being Rey Skywalker adds nothing to her character at this point. There is no point in revisiting it. Just move on and tell a new story.

It does not qualify as an artistic reason to simply undercut expectations built on in a previous film, where an artist built to a very obvious outcome. One that wasn't about subversion and did not need to kill off Luke Skywalker and place the Skywalker lineage in Kylo's murdering hands to be "artistic".

But hey, lets just subvert the endings of TFA and RotJ while we are at it. Its "artistic". Its good to know that future generations will get to enjoy the letdown a lot of us felt knowing that Luke never did fulfill his promise of a New Jedi Order. It would have somehow hurt Luke and Rey's character by him being brought back to the world by his daughter, who herself would have to come to grips with what it means to be a Skywalker and being abandoned by Luke.It would do nothing for her character who does nothing in the third act. Or even perhaps the second Solo heir, a chance for Luke to redeem himself after messing it up with the first, who is then forced to confront the fact that she must kill her brother or doom the galaxy after failing to redeem him. Perhaps her letting him live on the Supremacy would actually make sense then, as opposed to walking out on her enemy who just confirmed he was going to murder every single person she knows and cares about. It was better for character development to Force instant message with Kylo who she has a connection to, but only because Snoke wanted it. Not because it already existed. The murderer with no redeeming qualities, who we need to make look like Luke threatened to kill and caused him to turn evil for Rian's fascination. He's hot after all.

You know what the worst part of this is? We get a lesser version of what could have been to dance around it all. So even if JJ fixes it, TLJ still exist in this really weird situation of being a lesser film to dance around it all. Because ideas and things that work better on both a character and emotional level if she is related, are lesser because got to subvert. Lets have Rey function like she is Luke's daughter, but not actually make her that. Why?

Really? You don't think understanding someone makes it easier to not simply label them a certain way? If you think that Darth, then no point in arguing it further

The problem here is you are boiling this down to a very simple view point, while missing the layers of character work done in The Empire Strikes Back. Vader isn't some random, 1D bad guy Luke is confronted with. He is a lot more then that to the film and Luke himself. He is a bogeyman of great status and personal conflict with Luke.

He lost in the end but that doesn't change my point.

He lost by not understanding her. Means he doesn't know how to read her. Bad at reading the Force Kylo is.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

http://www.jwfan.com/?p=10585 (February 15, 2018)

What does that old guy know?

We'll see how JJ decides to build on it. Frankly, I hope they don't revisit it. I feel like that is taking a step backward if we do. We've covered her lineage now for 2 films, and I would rather Episode IX be its own movie, as opposed to something that keeps revisiting the same plot threads. My hope is they don't address her parents again at all and just move on to something else. The last thing Episode IX needs to do IMO is be a vehicle to just undo what people didn't like about Episode VIII. It will bog the movie down, and I would rather just see them do their best to make Episode IX awesome. I feel like they have a blank canvas for it, so use it.

Yes a blank canvas to do better. Like he did with TFA.

 

[Snow Queen]

Did you watch the trailer? Who is Luke referencing? Kylo? A non-family member? Seriously?


It does not qualify as an artistic reason to simply undercut expectations built on in a previous film, where an artist built to a very obvious outcome. One that wasn't about subversion and did not need to kill off Luke Skywalker and place the Skywalker lineage in Kylo's murdering hands to be "artistic".

But hey, lets just subvert the endings of TFA and RotJ while we are at it. Its "artistic". Its good to know that future generations will get to enjoy the letdown a lot of us felt knowing that Luke never did fulfill his promise of a New Jedi Order. It would have somehow hurt Luke and Rey's character by him being brought back to the world by his daughter, who herself would have to come to grips with what it means to be a Skywalker and being abandoned by Luke.It would do nothing for her character who does nothing in the third act. Or even perhaps the second Solo heir, a chance for Luke to redeem himself after messing it up with the first, who is then forced to confront the fact that she must kill her brother or doom the galaxy after failing to redeem him. Perhaps her letting him live on the Supremacy would actually make sense then, as opposed to walking out on her enemy who just confirmed he was going to murder every single person she knows and cares about. It was better for character development to Force instant message with Kylo who she has a connection to, but only because Snoke wanted it. Not because it already existed. The murderer with no redeeming qualities, who we need to make look like Luke threatened to kill and caused him to turn evil for Rian's fascination. He's hot after all.

You know what the worst part of this is? We get a lesser version of what could have been to dance around it all. So even if JJ fixes it, TLJ still exist in this really weird situation of being a lesser film to dance around it all. Because ideas and things that work better on both a character and emotional level if she is related, are lesser because got to subvert. Lets have Rey function like she is Luke's daughter, but not actually make her that. Why?


The problem here is you are boiling this down to a very simple view point, while missing the layers of character work done in The Empire Strikes Back. Vader isn't some random, 1D bad guy Luke is confronted with. He is a lot more then that to the film and Luke himself. He is a bogeyman of great status and personal conflict with Luke.


He lost by not understanding her. Means he doesn't know how to read her. Bad at reading the Force Kylo is.

As much as I love the Yoda scene, in a movie where Rey's whole role is bouncing between Skywalkers so they can talk about their pain, she doesn't even get to be the thing that brings him back. Instead he gets the talk with Yoda. Which I like and wouldn't be a problem if she had other things to do. But instead it just feels like her time with Luke is fairly inconsequential.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

As much as I love the Yoda scene, in a movie where Rey's whole role is bouncing between Skywalkers so they can talk about their pain, she doesn't even get to be the thing that brings him back. Instead he gets the talk with Yoda. Which I like and wouldn't be a problem if she had other things to do. But instead it just feels like her time with Luke is fairly inconsequential.

I agree with this so much. Watching it at home has not helped TLJ for me. It has actually soured me on it more, like Rogue One. How much this little subversion trick and side quest to Canto Bight left Luke and Rey not only very little time together, but that time is suddenly about everyone but her. It's about Luke. Its about Kylo. It isn't about Rey. And as much as I love the Yoda scene, how they handle Rey and Luke makes her time with him kind of pointless. For both of them.

Which reminds me. The Luke/Yoda scene seem to be setting up the obvious, "Luke will train Rey". Except there is still an hour left in the film and she never once speaks to him and then he dies without another word spoken between the two. Now, Force Ghost is great an all, but if a Force Ghost can train a Jedi, why haven't we seen that before?

 

[C. Lee]

Now, Force Ghost is great an all, but if a Force Ghost can train a Jedi, why haven't we seen that before?

At the end of episode III: REVENGE OF THE SITH....when they are splitting up the twins, Yoda has this to say to Obi-Wan -

Yoda- Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you.

Obi-Wan - Training?

Yoda - An old friend has learned the path to immortality. One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force. Your old master.

Obi Wan - Qui-Gon?

Yoda - How to commune with him I will teach you.

So, the way I see it....from the time of the death of Qui-Gon until we are told that Yoda can commune with him is roughly 10 years. So it took 10 years for Qui-Gon to manipulate the Force into performing voice or mental communication. Then there was 20 years of Obi-Wan studying from Qui-Gon to learn how to make a Force ghost voice (used to communicate briefly with Luke in episode IV: A NEW HOPE). Then another couple of years to be able to create a Force ghost body (episode V: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK). Then between episode VI: THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (where we see Force Ghosts, but they do nothing more than stand around looking at people) and episode VIII: THE LAST JEDI, where Yoda appears and as a Force Ghost actually manipulating and controlling things non ghost related (by calling down massive lightning strike from the skies) is a passing of 34 years.

From all that, one would have to interpret that controlling things when dead (even with Force manipulation as part of your abilities when alive) is not an easy thing. So to answer your question as to why we haven't seen Force Ghosts training Jedi up to this point....it's because they are still working on being able to do it. They are still training themselves.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

At the end of episode III: REVENGE OF THE SITH....when they are splitting up the twins, Yoda has this to say to Obi-Wan -

Yoda- Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you.

Obi-Wan - Training?

Yoda - An old friend has learned the path to immortality. One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force. Your old master.

Obi Wan - Qui-Gon?

Yoda - How to commune with him I will teach you.

So, the way I see it....from the time of the death of Qui-Gon until we are told that Yoda can commune with him is roughly 10 years. So it took 10 years for Qui-Gon to manipulate the Force into performing voice or mental communication. Then there was 20 years of Obi-Wan studying from Qui-Gon to learn how to make a Force ghost voice (used to communicate briefly with Luke in episode IV: A NEW HOPE). Then another couple of years to be able to create a Force ghost body (episode V: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK). Then between episode VI: THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (where we see Force Ghosts, but they do nothing more than stand around looking at people) and episode VIII: THE LAST JEDI, where Yoda appears and as a Force Ghost actually manipulating and controlling things non ghost related (by calling down massive lightning strike from the skies) is a passing of 34 years.

From all that, one would have to interpret that controlling things when dead (even with Force manipulation as part of your abilities when alive) is not an easy thing. So to answer your question as to why we haven't seen Force Ghosts training Jedi up to this point....it's because they are still working on being able to do it. They are still training themselves.

I like this theory. But if we use that logic, what use can Luke be to Rey in the next one unless it is way down the line? I am personally all for an alive Luke in all but name. But it would be a leap. Especially since the only reason Luke knows Yoda is because Ben couldn't train him as a Force Ghost. Or perhaps the idea was that Yoda could train Luke better either way.

 

[Sithborg]

Why does Luke have to be helping Rey?

I am all for Force Ghost Luke haunting the unhinged Kylo...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Why does Luke have to be helping Rey?

I am all for Force Ghost Luke haunting the unhinged Kylo...

Because the Yoda/Luke scene was about Luke training Rey. Setting that up.

But on the haunting Kylo bit. It is something my brother and I have talked about wanting quite a bit. But can a dark sider see a Force Ghost? Serious question. Because I remember that not being a thing, but perhaps some canon has changed that.

 

[C. Lee]

I like this theory. But if we use that logic, what use can Luke be to Rey in the next one unless it is way down the line?

He could talk to her and explain things to her. He could discuss the mental process of pulling the Force into yourself and then channeling it out to do things. When you are studying philosophy, your professor doesn't have to touch you.

Or perhaps the idea was that Yoda could train Luke better either way.

Well.....Obi-Wan did trained Anakin.....who became a Sith and destroyed the Jedi order.

I am all for Force Ghost Luke haunting the unhinged Kylo...

That would be fun to watch too.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yes a blank canvas to do better. Like he did with TFA.

Matter of taste. As noted in prior discussion, I am less of a fan of TFA than you are. To me it is merely good not great. But I am not treading that ground again. It will just end in a circular debate. But for the sake of Episode IX, I hope JJ knocks it out of the park. I want a great Star Wars film regardless who makes it. I just feel like in the end, bogging themselves down in Episode VIII damage control won't yield the best product.

Did you watch the trailer? Who is Luke referencing? Kylo? A non-family member? Seriously?

When do the words "Rey Skywalker" ever get stated? Answer is never. Assumption does not make reality. The marketing for Captain America Civil War showed Rhodey potentially dying in the movie. That was my favorite scene when they killed Rhodey. Oh wait, he only got crippled? I guess they must have just been subverting everyone's expectations for no reason. I mean, the marketing teased it!!!!

I 100% understand not liking the direction the story took. It's a divisive movie and I understand what people expected. I don't blame you if you don't like it conceptually. But, I still don't agree that what Johnson did went against what came before. Ultimately, Rey's lineage was still left to the next filmmaker following JJ's work on Episode VIII & IX. Like my Civil War example, just because something is teased in marketing doesn't mean it will come to pass. If you were excited to see that come to fruition based on the marketing, I understand why you're mad. But, that still doesn't change my point. My argument has never been people have to like Johnson's approach or agree with it. My point is simply I see the progression logical from a story perspective, and Johnson has very eloquently explained himself on this matter and been very open about his creative process. His intention was not simply to troll people, it was his way of progressing the story in the way he felt was best, and I don't think in doing so he betrayed anything. Played with audience expectation maybe, but completely went off the rails for no creative reason, that I don't agree with.

It does not qualify as an artistic reason to simply undercut expectations built on in a previous film, where an artist built to a very obvious outcome. One that wasn't about subversion and did not need to kill off Luke Skywalker and place the Skywalker lineage in Kylo's murdering hands to be "artistic".

But hey, lets just subvert the endings of TFA and RotJ while we are at it. Its "artistic". Its good to know that future generations will get to enjoy the letdown a lot of us felt knowing that Luke never did fulfill his promise of a New Jedi Order. It would have somehow hurt Luke and Rey's character by him being brought back to the world by his daughter, who herself would have to come to grips with what it means to be a Skywalker and being abandoned by Luke.It would do nothing for her character who does nothing in the third act. Or even perhaps the second Solo heir, a chance for Luke to redeem himself after messing it up with the first, who is then forced to confront the fact that she must kill her brother or doom the galaxy after failing to redeem him. Perhaps her letting him live on the Supremacy would actually make sense then, as opposed to walking out on her enemy who just confirmed he was going to murder every single person she knows and cares about. It was better for character development to Force instant message with Kylo who she has a connection to, but only because Snoke wanted it. Not because it already existed. The murderer with no redeeming qualities, who we need to make look like Luke threatened to kill and caused him to turn evil for Rian's fascination. He's hot after all.

You know what the worst part of this is? We get a lesser version of what could have been to dance around it all. So even if JJ fixes it, TLJ still exist in this really weird situation of being a lesser film to dance around it all. Because ideas and things that work better on both a character and emotional level if she is related, are lesser because got to subvert. Lets have Rey function like she is Luke's daughter, but not actually make her that. Why?


The problem here is you are boiling this down to a very simple view point, while missing the layers of character work done in The Empire Strikes Back. Vader isn't some random, 1D bad guy Luke is confronted with. He is a lot more then that to the film and Luke himself. He is a bogeyman of great status and personal conflict with Luke.

As noted before you may not like the artistic reason he gives, but that does not mean it is not an artistic reason. You're just letting the fact that you don't like the decision blind you from its artistic merit. I am not saying you have to like or agree with it conceptually. But, that does not change there was an artistic reason for it beyond trolling the audience.

As for your comments about Vader, once again show me one place Luke shows any kind of differing knowledge about Vader not being the bad guy before he goes off to fight in cloud city. If you do that I will concede my point. It's going to take you a long time to find that, because he never does say anything like that. The cave exclusively was to say something about himself, not how he views Vader. You may not read it the same way, and that is fine, but that is how I read this scene

He lost by not understanding her. Means he doesn't know how to read her. Bad at reading the Force Kylo is.

What are we even arguing here? Whether or not a character is successful in what they're doing does not negate what they're doing. He is attempting to utilize what he knows about her like the serpent in the Garden of Eden. The fact is unsuccessful does not make this any less true. This is again an example of you blinding yourself with the result as opposed to what is going on. This is a running theme. If your argument is the plot line sucks because he failed, I will agree he failed to sway her. I honestly do not get what you are going for here.

 

[danoyse]

Did you watch the trailer? Who is Luke referencing? Kylo? A non-family member? Seriously?

A new generation. That’s what I always took away from that trailer. New characters, new stories. How these new characters were meant to play into the story or the Skywalker lineage. Having Luke’s words from ROTJ left me thinking there would be a new Skywalker, but I never presumed who that would be or how it would play out, particularly since JJ loves misdirection.

I never took that trailer to be a 30-foot tall lit up sign that Rey was a Skywalker.