Darthphere Presents: Chivalry is Dead. So what?

[SpideyVille]

I guess a good question to ask is what is considered to be the behavior of a gentleman in today's world has it changed over time?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I wouldn't feel emasculated if some random girl held a door open for me, but sometimes I feel that way when I'm with a girl and she doesn't give me a chance to open it. Like there's been a few occasions where the girl actually seemed to make an effort to get to the door before me just so I couldn't open it, and that's a bad trait to me. Like most girls I know don't expect you to do it, but appreciate it if you do.

Exactly what I was talking about.

Guess you'd be the kind of guy i'd have offended

 

[Anita18]

This too. I don't overthink holding doors. Its just a common courtesy, nothing to get hung up on.

Seriously. I don't get upset either if my bf doesn't open the car door for me first. I mean, it saves a lot of time if I just open the door on my side of the car.

I do admit I let him pay when we go out, but that's because he's living at home and has a lot more discretionary income and we only go out when he visits every few weeks. My dad would have a coronary if he knew, he's always disliked us accepting money from people. But we never ask - we have a rich uncle and he always insists on giving us money every year. My sister thinks it's because he wants the tax write-off on gifts. But with a situation like that, when someone absolutely insists, the drama of refusing it is always more trouble than just accepting the dang money.

 

[SpideyVille]

Exactly what I was talking about.

Guess you'd be the kind of guy i'd have offended

Haha maybe, but it depends on the case. Like sometimes it can be tricky to hold a door for a girl, like of the door handle is on her side and opens on her way. In such a case, unless I make an obviously blatant effort to open it, I wouldn't expect her to stop and wait for me to open it. But one thing I don't like is when I open a door and the girl opens another one right next to it. That is much more worse because its like she doesn't want or expects me to open the door and gives me a feeling that there is a separation between us if we are friends.

 

[Erzengel]

I open doors for people especially if they are right behind me.

I let at least 1 car in when there's a merge or if traffic is slow enough. I get pissed if they don't acknowledge me though.

If I'm waiting on line and another line opens up, I always let someone go who I know was there before me.

When I was out at clubs, and I met with a girl, and it was closing time and we were ushered out into the cold, I'd let her take my coat.

I don't really feel I'm doing anything out of the ordinary.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I guess a good question to ask is what is considered to be the behavior of a gentleman in today's world has it changed over time?

I've said multiple times it has, and yes, the 'chivalrous gentleman' notion is antiquated. I think this is due to equality. The whole wooing process really had more to do with the girl's parents. Proving to them you were worthwhile, and socially affluent because ultimately the girl in question was property. Not to diminish anyone's great grandparents, but for the most part your great grandmothers were considered lucky if a guy with a job wanted their attention. There weren't many options for them outside of marriage. Then of course, you can bring in other countries. The middle east definitely has countries where their views of being a good husband are different to say the least.

I find the notion of chivalry to have somewhat masochistic undertones. A lot of it smacks of submissive behavior. That might not be the reasoning behind holding a door or pulling out a chair, but when you overdo it the message is "let me do everything for you because you're a woman". It's also not linked to the person. When you get in that thought process of women as a group then you have nothing to offer any single woman, because individuals want to see that they are individually special.

The final problem is chivalry is all about what someone needs, not what someone wants. Needs do not need to be addressed right away because you're not a couple. Also needs are fairly basic. Wants are complex. You need to give a girl what she wants. Chivalry is just a routine, it can never fully anticipate how someone will act.

This is what I mean when I say 'nice guys' need to stick to 'nice girls'. Just because you're nice and want nice things and want to live in a nice world doesn't mean I have to put up with it. What's gonna happen when I get pissed off? When I yell at you? When I decide to smoke pot and hang out with my friends? Chivalry is great for delicate creatures who want other delicate creatures.

Chivalry doesn't account for nuances or subtlties in human behavior either.

 

[POWdER-man]

I open doors for people especially if they are right behind me.

I let at least 1 car in when there's a merge or if traffic is slow enough. I get pissed if they don't acknowledge me though.

If I'm waiting on line and another line opens up, I always let someone go who I know was there before me.

When I was out at clubs, and I met with a girl, and it was closing time and we were ushered out into the cold, I'd let her take my coat.

I don't really feel I'm doing anything out of the ordinary.

Yeah I am pretty much the same way and I don't feel I am doing anything special. Although I do not, nor do I like people to, hold the door if there is a distance of 20 feet or more. That irritates me and makes me feel awkward as I feel I have to rush.

Also when I am crossing a sidewalk, if I notice a car is waiting to turn I put a little extra step in my bounce and walk across a little faster. I know I appreciate it when pedestrians do it and I absolutely hate it when I get some smug little bastard taking his sweet old time going across just because they can. (I am not reffering to the elderly or disabled, but the able bodied who are obviously fit enough not to take all day crossing a road).

 

[Thundercrack85]

Some people seem to be equating chivalry with having manners. Holding the door for someone doesn't make you chivalrous, it just means you're not a ****.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

Some people seem to be equating chivalry with having manners. Holding the door for someone doesn't make you chivalrous, it just means you're not a ****.

So holding a door for someone means your not a ****?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Some people seem to be equating chivalry with having manners. Holding the door for someone doesn't make you chivalrous, it just means you're not a ****.

This is where you fail.

There are plenty of d***s who hold the door for people. They're still d***s before, after and during the door holding process.

 

[Thundercrack85]

So holding a door for someone means your not a ****?

Well, it's a start.

 

[SpideyVille]

So can a **** be a gentleman or is he simply acting like one?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Well, it's a start.

No, it's not. Not even a start.

Has it possibly occurred to you that many women simply aren't attracted by door-holding-ability?

 

[Thundercrack85]

So can a **** be a gentleman or is he simply acting like one?

I think so. There have been a lot of polite villains throughout history. It may be how they are raised. For others it may just be an act.

But there probably aren't that many nice people who let doors slam in your face.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

So can a **** be a gentleman or is he simply acting like one?

You guys have to, have to, have to, stop compartmentalizing behaviors. Splitting them into "good" and "bad". Instead of trying to be a 'gentleman', or only be seen as 'good' or 'bad' has it ever occurred to you that people are really a complex mix of both? If you're a funny, fun, entertaining and exciting guy who doesn't hold doors, then you're still a funny, fun, entertaining and exciting guy. People will happily overlook the door thing at this point.

The problem with this whole thing is it focuses on the trees, forgetting the whole forrest is burning down around it.

Sometimes I'm a gentleman, and sometimes I'm a d***. Sometimes I'll be pleasant, and other times I like getting stoned and having fun at someone's expense. I can't be nice all the time, it just asks too much. I'm not a comic book character. I do things people don't like, but they make me happy, so f*** everyone else.

You can cherrypick anyone's behavior. Tom Brady has all kinds of haters who claim he's a d*** because he runs up the score on their team. Bill Clinton has all kinds of detractors who claim he's a broken human being who can't keep his thingy in his pants. Forget the superbowl rings, forget the massive charity, forget the great team leadership, forget his Presidency, because the minute you start going through this process of idealization and devaluation, it doesn't matter.

Chivalry is a bad thing partly because it's all encompassing. It's not "nice", it's a routine, it's just a routine. People are indifferent to it.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I think so. There have been a lot of polite villains throughout history. It may be how they are raised. For others it may just be an act.

But there probably aren't that many nice people who let doors slam in your face.

Part of the problem here is you overestimate how much people 'give a sh**'. If a door slams in my face I'm not going to have a vendetta against that guy, especially if he didn't do it intentionally.

 

[Erzengel]

Um, this is like the second or third time, you brought up Tom Brady in terms of reference that wasn't in a NFL thread.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Um, this is like the second or third time, you brought up Tom Brady in terms of reference that wasn't in a NFL thread.

He's in my avatar. Technically he comes up everytime I post....


...plus it's Tom Brady. I mean, just look at him.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

What it comes down to with women is presentation, and this is true for people in general. You don't need to focus on chivalry, you need to focus on having a personality, which is a mix of being a jerk and being a gentlemen.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Agreed.

I think some aspects of chivalry are nicer than others.

For example, if your on a date and it's cold and the guy takes off his jacket and puts it around you, there is something really nice about that.

But I don't want a guy whose going to be obsessive about him standing on the side of the pavement nearest the road when we walk anywhere. That level of chivalry is just weird.

 

[SpideyVille]

Yeah the most weirdest act of chivalry was a guy putting his jacket over a puddle of water so the girl can walk over it without getting wet. That just never made sense.

 

[Darthphere]

Yeah the most weirdest act of chivalry was a guy putting his jacket over a puddle of water so the girl can walk over it without getting wet. That just never made sense.

Indeed.

Why not carry her over?

Why not walk around?

What do you do with the jacket?

Leave it there?

Put it back on soaked?

Were puddles a big thing back in the day?

 

[Darthphere]

This seemed like a good as place as any to post this.

Women are a mystery to British physicist Hawking

Here comes Optimus to tell Stephen Hawking that he's overthinking things and to stop compartmentalizing people.

 

[Immortalfire]

Indeed.

Why not carry her over?

Why not walk around?

What do you do with the jacket?

Leave it there?

Put it back on soaked?

Were puddles a big thing back in the day?

I've thought the same thing; I'm not going to put on a soaking wet jacket. Walk around the freakin puddle. Or maybe we'll go all out, and move slightly down the street where there is no puddle at all!

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

This seemed like a good as place as any to post this.

Women are a mystery to British physicist Hawking

Here comes Optimus to tell Stephen Hawking that he's overthinking things and to stop compartmentalizing people.

It's really not uncommon for smart people to have problems with women. One of my friends is quite dumb, can't even read that well, but he just slays tail.

Stephen Hawking may not be that sociable or maybe he's hasn't had much of a history with women (he has been married twice though). That, and he's got a debilitating disease, and has had it since his youth. He's also (rumored to be) borderline autistic, so I'd not consult him on the finer points of social skills.

The one benefit stupid people have is they can't overthink anything. Immanuel Kant and Isaac Newton both died virgins. Pretty smart people.