Decimation rant

Dread said:
Maybe the X-Franchise could benefit from a REALLY new idea for the staus quo, that is thought out, coordinated and maintained. But that would be a considerable thing to pull off, especially for a fanbase and franchise so used to "lather, rinse, repeat".
When Morrison did this -- making his book sell consistently in the top 5 for basically his entire run, incidentally -- Marvel complained that the new black leather look didn't sell well on merchandise and lunchboxes and stuff.

They want it both ways, honestly.
 
I don't know, I'm really enjoying X-Factor, New X-Men and Uncanny.

But, I've been laughing about the outright Sentinal slaughter for a while now. The thing is, with Sentinals, you CAN destroy them and no bloodshed or death comes of it. Makes them easy targets.

Personally, if I was writing an X-book, I would ignore the decimation crap too, mostly because House of M was so damn bad. I don't think the books are in THAT bad a shape. They've been worse. FAR worse.
 
BrianWilly said:
When Morrison did this -- making his book sell consistently in the top 5 for basically his entire run, incidentally -- Marvel complained that the new black leather look didn't sell well on merchandise and lunchboxes and stuff.

They want it both ways, honestly.
Ironically, while Morrison was ON his run, I wasn't reading the X-books. While I liked a lot of his ideas, it was the execution that I didn't care for. His biggest problem was that he was going to the other extreme; doing TOO much in too few issues for the X-universe, and trying to "explain away" bad history. Plus, well, it's no secret that he equated Jean with his ex, and thus we had stuff like Scott and Emma making out ON HER FREAKING GRAVE, which is about the peak of being a *****ebag (as in, not even Batman has ever done that). Frankly I feel that the X-books needed writers more like Whedon, those who could placate the older fans enough while still driving foward with a clear agenda.

After Morrison left, the X-books had little agenda, and Decimation was sort of a return to a past status quo. It was back-peddling. It (along with DANGER) made me actually appreciate why people liked Morrison's run; for once, something NEW happened in an X-book. It wasn't always good, and often was vulgar. But it was NEW. I could understand how some weary fans could have appreciated that.

And naturally Marvel wants it both ways; ironically they would dream to become something like Disney, where they get the bulk of their intake via liscencing out products with their characters names (movies, books, toys, merchandise, etc) rather than solely relying on comics themselves (as their 90's crash showcased). Business wise, this has led to a stronger Marvel that doesn't rely on comic sales (or abysmal Fleer trading cards) as strongly for survival as they did in the 90's (thanks in no small part to Ari Avad, who is usually criticized, often for good reason, but call a spade a spade, he's helped launch Marvel as a Hollywood darling). Comic wise, this may lead to Marvel being stuck with maintaining an ARCHIE, "Neverland"-esque status quo with many properties. No real fan believes that any change is really "lasting", that it can't be retconned or written away, and this presents a problem when you want to sell, say, 500,000 copies of DEADLY GENESIS and the sales are underwhelming.

The comic enterprises we look at are only a microcosm of bigger society. In life, most people DO want it both ways. So seeing it acted out in Marvel policy is not so strange. The problem is, of course, in that in trying to please everyone, you end up pleasing fewer than you expected. Or maybe not. The sales, after all, still show Marvel as king of the hill. And there still is an X-book that consistantly sells in the Top 5; ASTONISHING X-MEN.

Maybe Marvel needs to consider why. Of course, the obvious answer is "Whedon", but surely that can't be it alone. Maybe there are finer details:

- a streamlined cast where no one character is "****ing"
- unlike most X-books, it is a rare title so anticipation rises; it gets hard to feel anticipation for a line that has some 20+ books a month sometimes. Granted, Marvel's been ignoring heaps upon heaps of economic evidence that they need to publish fewer X-books (because trust me, they aren't all selling anymore) for years now.
- It introduces some new ideas without alienating the fanbase, even to a fault (such as, making Emma Frost once again involved with the Hellfire Club despite her being a heroine for a good 10+ years in real-time may not be the best approach).
- maintains full support in the "hype" department
- Is in its own seperate little world, which allows more casual fans along for the ride. There are more of them than Marvel realizes. It doesn't need other titles to stand on its own. And also being seperate, it is closer to what made the X-Men great; being a TEAM BOOK, instead of a franchise.

Basically, ASTONISHING could really be a fantastic book if Whedon was as willing as Morrison to spearhead some new ideas. Nostaligia's nice, but this book could go from A to A+ if Whedon had a clear-cut, foward thinking agenda for the line, because I think he could manage to pull it off in a way that Morrison wouldn't.
 
gildea said:
I agree with all most everything you said. Only minor quibble i have us that 2 A listers have lost their powers, (prof X and magneto).

Minor quibble though. That last paragraph sums it all up.

Don't forget Angel and Quicksilver
 
hippie_hunter said:
Don't forget Angel and Quicksilver
Neither of them have been considered A-list for years. Until HOUSE OF M/SON OF M, Pietro had been in limbo for over a year and no one cared. You can't say that for an A-Lister. You couldn't have Wolverine missing for a year and no one caring. Same with Angel. He's never been A-List. He's never sold a book.
 
Dread said:
The problem with the X-Men is the very fact that they are a franchise. Being a franchise limits how much they can grow as a character/story, but demands they their line be over-represented in the market because of the high sales (total) of the line itself. The amount of X-books per year, whether ongoings, mini's, or so on, seem to remain the same every year, and nearly every time someone in the company claims to be "cutting back", whatever books that are cancelled return within a few years. True, this isn't new for Marvel (SPIDER-MAN became a franchise a few years before the X-Men had their boom in the 90's, and even ran alongside them; remember how NEW WARRIORS was desperately shoehorned as a "Spider-book" towards the end?) or DC (there are no end of Batman or Superman books/minis/one-shots/appearences).

At least DC is cutting the number of Superman and Batman books.

Superman (v2) was canceled, Adventures of Superman became Superman (v1). There is no need to cancel Superman or Action Comics. There is a zero chance that Superboy, Krypto, or Steel are getting a book. Supergirl needs to get canceled

Batman: Gotham Knights, Batgirl, and Gotham Central have been canceled. I wouldn't be surprised if Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, Catwoman, Nightwing, or Robin got canceled.

Superman/Batman needs to get canceled for the Brave and the Bold in my opinion.

All-Star Batman and Robin: The Boy Wonder and All-Star Superman are not Superman or Batman books so they don't count because they are part of the All-Star DC line which will add All-Star Wonder Woman this year.

Has Marvel tried at all cutting the X-Men or Spider-Man lines like DC has done to the Superman or Batman lines? I think not. Marvel is far worse at this.
 
Dread said:
Neither of them have been considered A-list for years. Until HOUSE OF M/SON OF M, Pietro had been in limbo for over a year and no one cared. You can't say that for an A-Lister. You couldn't have Wolverine missing for a year and no one caring. Same with Angel. He's never been A-List. He's never sold a book.

Angel didn't lose his powers.
 
hippie_hunter said:
At least DC is cutting the number of Superman and Batman books.

Superman (v2) was canceled, Adventures of Superman became Superman (v1). There is no need to cancel Superman or Action Comics. There is a zero chance that Superboy, Krypto, or Steel are getting a book. Supergirl needs to get canceled

Batman: Gotham Knights, Batgirl, and Gotham Central have been canceled. I wouldn't be surprised if Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, Catwoman, Nightwing, or Robin got canceled.

Superman/Batman needs to get canceled for the Brave and the Bold in my opinion.

All-Star Batman and Robin: The Boy Wonder and All-Star Superman are not Superman or Batman books so they don't count because they are part of the All-Star DC line which will add All-Star Wonder Woman this year.

Has Marvel tried at all cutting the X-Men or Spider-Man lines like DC has done to the Superman or Batman lines? I think not. Marvel is far worse at this.

Robin is the best batbook out there.

and No, infact last year they added a spiderman and an x men title (friendly neighborhood, and astonishing) and x force
 
whats that new team...X-factor? has a guy with a shirt on with the thor circles on the cover..
 
Dread said:
Which may be why those are the two I read most regularly.

The problem with the X-Men is the very fact that they are a franchise. Being a franchise limits how much they can grow as a character/story, but demands they their line be over-represented in the market because of the high sales (total) of the line itself. The amount of X-books per year, whether ongoings, mini's, or so on, seem to remain the same every year, and nearly every time someone in the company claims to be "cutting back", whatever books that are cancelled return within a few years. True, this isn't new for Marvel (SPIDER-MAN became a franchise a few years before the X-Men had their boom in the 90's, and even ran alongside them; remember how NEW WARRIORS was desperately shoehorned as a "Spider-book" towards the end?) or DC (there are no end of Batman or Superman books/minis/one-shots/appearences).

Perhaps it is a problem that unlike most franchises, the X-Men revolve around a cast of DOZENS of unique heroes instead of just ONE hero and their cast. Plus, the X-Men have an overall "agenda", basically an allegory about bigotry and relations amung different groups, whereas most solo heroes are pretty much about generic superheroing/soap opera. ULTIMATE X-MEN works for me because it reminds me of the X-Men at their strongest; as a team book, not a franchise.

Relying on the X-Line for, oh, a good ten years before DISASSEMBLED and Bendis jazzed up the Avengers have taken their toll. 5 years ago, nearly any X-book that was launched sold in the Top Ten, even BROTHERHOOD #1. But come 2006, not even titles starring "popular" X-Men like Nightcrawler, Gambit, or Rogue can survive longer than 2 years (recall that during the 90's boom, SLEEPWALKER managed to remain for 3 years). Even WOLVERINE doesn't usually sell in the Top 10 anymore. True, DC has stepped up its game and is competing a lot harder for the past 2 years, but the fact is that the more books that got tagged as X-books, the less strength the line held. Joe Q even claimed that DEADLY GENESIS was "underperforming" because it wasn't selling in the Top 10 (and still isn't; although any EIC who sees the Top 15 as a problem really needs to gain some perspective).

As for "inter-title coordination", I feel that ironically, it is easier to do than it has ever been, and thus isn't done as often as it should. Joe Q seems to feel this sort of stuff is best left to "niggling fanboys" and so on, but being defensive doesn't solve the problem. It's called stonewalling, and a company that publishes books that historically criticize topical political climates should know that.

Maybe the X-Franchise could benefit from a REALLY new idea for the staus quo, that is thought out, coordinated and maintained. But that would be a considerable thing to pull off, especially for a fanbase and franchise so used to "lather, rinse, repeat".


Very true. I concede both are not C-Listers. But on the other hand, both Xavier and Magneto have exitted the stage for long periods of time, either via death, believed death, inprisonment, or whatever, and the books have proven to still fare well. Therefore, the loss of both yet again is hardly new. Heck, "losing powers" itself is hardly new to the X-Franchise. I'm sure we could make a list of at least a half dozen X-related characters who lost their powers at some point in a story (Storm being the most recognizable). Heck, "power loss" stories were common fodder for DC golden age Superman comics.

Thats exactly why I love Ultimate X-men. It feels like a team book like you said. There aren't 50 X-men or X-kids or X-police running around. You have a solid team and distinct personalities and cool superheroics and the X-men concept all in one book.
 
KingOfDreams said:
You don't read much Marvel, do you?

not any more, like i said in a diff thread, i grew out of it, i grew up with clone saga and jean grey coming back over and over again.
 
Assassin said:
Robin is the best batbook out there.
I was just saying I wouldn't be surprised because DC is right now cutting the number of Bat-books and Super-books. I think that Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight will get cancled sooner or later. With Selina no longer being Catwoman anymore, I wouldn't be surprised if Catwoman got cancled someday. With Nightwing's crappiness, I wouldn't be surprised if that book got canceled. And after Batgirl got canceled I wouldn't be surprised if Robin got canceled (and Batgirl was a good book too).

However in my opinion, Batman and Detective Comics are the best Bat-books out there right now. Robinson's arc totally rocks.

and No, infact last year they added a spiderman and an x men title (friendly neighborhood, and astonishing) and x force
Exactly, just like I said. While DC is cutting the Superman and Batman books, Marvel is just adding the number of Spider-Man and X-Men books. Hence Marvel is far worse than DC for ****ing their franchises. Just wait for the Scarlet Spider, Venom, Iron Spidey, Iceman, Cyclops, and others to get their own books.
 
hippie_hunter said:
However in my opinion, Batman and Detective Comics are the best Bat-books out there right now. Robinson's arc totally rocks.

Agreed
 
Brainiac 8 said:
Amen to that. Infinite Crisis makes HOM look like it was written by a 3 year old.:up:

Wait...

Bendis isn't 3 years old?

....

Seriously?
 
I don't have a problem with all the X-Titles that are released, just as long as they serve some type of purpose. People say they just want a team book, but the problem is, that'd be a spit in the face for those of us who've been with the books for years and love so many of the characters. Would it be okay for the X-Men to be a team of, say 6 or so characters, and then another 20 of our favorates are discarded off into limbo? And whatabout the other non-x-men x-characters that we love to read about, should they be ignored? Personally, if the X-Men were to be so severely limited, I'd hate it and probably get discouraged. I love the C and B list characters that the people who just crack on the X-Men couldn't care less about. Son of M is a great book, but my absolute favorate part about it is that Shola's back with his powers. Unless you're a hardcore X-fan, I doubt most of you even know who Shola is.

I think the X-Men need the titles, but I do think they need to be smarter about it. While I'm not a Wolverine fan, I think he's alright with a solo book, as he's a fan favorate, but he doesn't need two. Two X-Men books are fine, as there's a lot of X-Men, but make sure they both have a purpose. A third title's kinda annoying. Knock it off with the Wolverine minis and make sure the minis you DO put out have a purpose. I'm failing to see the point to Apocalypse Vs Dracula and I couldn't care less about Dead Girl. etc. etc. etc.

All in all I think the X-World is fine in general, but it just needs some cleaning up. They've had some good reads in the past that people just pass on because they're X-Books (District X and Nightcrawler come to mind), but if Marvel actually made new books something special instead of releasing both of those at the same time as other pointless books like Gambit, Rogue, and Jubilee, they could have done better). They need to make a smarter X-World, but then people would have to actually give them a shot for that to work. Hopefully it will pick up soon with Brubaker taking over Uncanny X-Men, and adjectiveless getting a new creative team.

I'm rambling aren't I? Oh well.
 
I completely agree with what you're saying here, JewishHobbit.

I think the X-Men have more than enough good characters and story potential to support multiple books, just so long as there's some kind of plan for them, the same characters aren't used over and over, and it doesn't all just look slapped together for profit.
 

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