Decoding THE MATRIX TRILOGY anyone? Discuss the films here.

[matrix_ghost]

Nope , nope it wasn't In fact it was very very lame :P

How about everyone who likes the trilogy post what they didn't like in Reloaded and Revolutions and also explain why they didn't like it or how they would've improved on it. You can also use scenes which you felt were good , but also could've been improved on.

I'll start off .

1 scenes in Zion :
Now before you think i hate Zion , hear me out. I don't hate or nor don't i like it. In fact i like it alot. However there are moments in Zion which i don't like and it puts me towards a point.
As i stated before i don't like the Rave at all. I understand the meaning of it which is of course , mankind's celebration , showing that in spite of a looming war we are still human , that unlike machines who always crave for feelings we are truly able to feel those things ( neo banging trinity , the grinding of bodies in rave ) , the fact that neo will always care for trinity ( instead of them celebrating in unison with the zionites , they go off and have sex ).
But i just don't see it working. I would've liked to see more scenes with the zionoties preparing to fight . More scenes with councillor hammann or for that matter Cornel West talking to neo and morpheus.
I mean one thing that Reloaded immediatly shows us is that this isn't M1. Stop drawing conclusions or thinking that it's the same...cause it's not.
Reloaded shows us that morpheus isn''t as all knowing , that his believes are questioned.
And of course , more scenes featuring the zionities with their dependance on neo and neo showing again and again that he will always go for trinity. IMO it wou'ld've made that much more of an impact.



2 Burly Brawl
I dunno if any of you know how the burly brawl originally was going to be.
For those who don't know anything about it :
It was going to be a far more threatening thing for neo. One of the main criticisms of the burly brawl is that neo is god and that he could've just flown away easily. However many people who come up with such arguments , also fail to realise that neo is always trying to overcome a situation. Even if he doesn't understand it. With the first fight in Reloaded we see that the agents attack neo and after a few moves he begins to see that the agents are upgrades. Still trying to overcome the situation , he kicks their butts. In Reloaded he does the same thing , trying to realise just why the smiths are their and trying to overcome the situation. That is why he fights them and as more smiths arrive , he knows that physically he can't win....in that moment. That's why he escapes.
Now going back to the burly brawl as it was originally conceived , smith was a far more threatening presence. He goes all out and begins to take over everyone in the vicinity. First he tries to take over neo and seeing that he can't do that , he takes over everyone. Check out how the wachowskis wrote that scene :

EXT. TENEMENT PARK - DAY

The courtyard is overrun by the seemingly endless mob and their relentless attack begins to overwhelm Neo.

INT. NEBUCHADNEZZAR - MAIN DECK - DAY

Trinity can't stand it.

TRINITY
Come on! Get out of there!

EXT. TENEMENT PARK - DAY

Almost buried beneath Smiths, Neo seems to hear her. Screaming with Herculean effort, he hurls himself upward, reaching for the freedom of the sky but--

The Smiths refuse to let go.

Together they rise; a twisted knot of bodies uncoiling as it bends up into the air--

Several Smiths slip off, others leap up to grab on--

The last snatching onto the lowest Smith's ankle as--

Neo drags his chain skyward.

EXT. CITYSCAPE - DAY

The Smiths cling to him, arms and legs wrapped like strangling vines around the trunk of a tree as their fingers dig, gouging, slowly sinking into his skin.

Neo tries to shake them loose, jack-knifing, suddenly reversing his direction as--

The ankle-holding Smith is whip-snapped free--

Thrown spinning through open space until smashing into the glass wall of a skyscraper.

Still, Neo cannot get free.

Like a devil perched on his back, the Smith nearest his ear smiles.

SMITH
It is... inevitable.

Fingers sink like vampire fangs into Neo's neck.

The blackness spreads, enveloping his face, one eye covered as the other eye seems to go dead and his flight becomes a fall--

Plunging with his comet-tail of Smiths to the city below.

INT. NEBUCHADNEZZAR - MAIN DECK - DAY

Trinity covers her mouth.

TRINITY
Oh no.

EXT. TELEVISION SUPPLY HOUSE - DAY

They break through, falling into the center display, toppling stacks of screens.

Neo's eyes focus as the collision severs Smith's connection and he leaps to his feet.

Before the Smiths can reach for him, Neo leaps into the air, soaring through the hole in the ceiling.

The Smiths stand, the image surreally filling up the monitors through the store's live camera feeds.

A woman screams as Smith stabs his fingers into her neck.

I mean that scene just sounds soo cool reading that. And the fact that it was storyboarded ( see the matrix dvd's for that) shows that they were in fact planning to shoot the sequence.
Why they changed it , i dunno. Mebbe for budgetary reasons.

3 Deleted Stuff
See burly brawl description above. Alot of scenes in Reloaded and Revolutions were ditched because of Budgetary reasons.
In Revolutions there was going to be a shot of neo flyin thru the megacity whoch also got removed. Pre-VIZ alone would've costed almost 1 million dollars . Animation would've probably costs millions more.

John Gaeta gave a short description of that sequence :
In fact, one of the most elaborate shots in Revolutions didn't make it out of the previz stage. This scene had Neo flying through the mega city in a curved, zigzag pattern while the camera orbited his body and sliding lenses created a feeling of vertigo. The shot was nixed because of its steep $1 million production price tag. "It was super killer and my favorite," says Gaeta.

This sequence was also drawn.
Also the freeway chase was changed abit in the end , although i'm not sure how much. I knew that Morpheus and Trinity would be surrounded in the end and they would then escape with in the end neo saving the day in bullet time. I just don't know how. Need to do some digging up.
THe opening scene was also changed quite drastically in Reloaded. It had the scene with the motorcycle landing and exploding. Trinity fought , if i remember correctly , just one person and then we'd see a frightened trinity as she walks and you'd constantly go in and out of the matrix code until that show came of her falling out of the building and firing in bullet time.
IMO alot of those removed scenes would've made Reloaded and Revolutions better.


That's all for now. There are more stuff but i'll post them later

 

[The Kid]

Thread is officially over.

 

[matrix_ghost]

Oh and btw.
Who wants some conceptual artwork

Here are some concept shots for FFOTO

And stuff in Revolutions :

There's loads more of the art of Revolutions here :


There's loads more of the art of Revolutions
http://www.ghull.com/art/revolutions/art_mtxrev_thumbs_01.php

And for Reloaded :
http://www.ghull.com/art/reloaded/art_mtxrel_thumbs_01.php

 

[블라스]

The "Rave" scene is the only thing I hated out of the whole trilogy.

 

[xwolverine2]

The "Rave" scene is the only thing I hated out of the whole trilogy.

yeah..... that took up too much time.

 

[블라스]

And was super lame.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Hey my username says it all doesn't

GREATEST TRILOGY EVER !!!!
Strange thing tough. Yesterday i was posting on the matrix board i've been a memeber of since 2003 and have been visiting since 2000 and i was thinking back about the good old days when the sequels were just announced and there were rumors galore .

Stuff that made you , at least , just laugh out loud. But back in those days we were trying to believe anything.
And i can't help but feel that magazines joined into the hype and actually gave us bogus info.

TOTALFILM , UK film magazine , said about the fight between neo and the twins with double egded swords.
EMPIRE MAGAZINE , very very respected film magazine , said about a fight between multiple neos and smiths.

The actors who play the Twins actually said in a Total Film interview, "We BOTH fight Neo."

 

[Kevin Roegele]

The extremely mixed responses to the two sequels tend to make people forget how incredibly influential the original film was, and still is. It was years ahead of it's time. Although it's been superficially copied ever since (martial arts, bullet time, costumes), Hollywood is still catching up with it.

Perhaps the underlining fault of the sequels is an attempt to outdo all the Matrix-wannabes and do 'The Matrix x10' - with ten times the scale, ten times the action, ten times the CGI and ten times the mind-bending dialogue.

Whereas, if the Wachowskis had come up with some even more staggering, "Whoa....." sci-fi concepts - and an incredibly story - for the sequels, they may have been onto something. As it stands, The Matrix sequels are simply, "...and then they fight, and then they have a war, and then they reach a truce."

We all had in our heads some wild ideas for the shocking twists that the Wachowkis' were SURELY going to spring on us, including...

1. Reality and Zion is another part of The Matrix.
2. There are a huge number of Matrixes within Matrixes, and Neo eventually escapes them all and finds himself in the cinema screen, looking at the audience and tapping on the screen. He tries to speak to the audience in the cinema, so the audience don't know what to do. (Yeah, that's one of mine)
3. Neo is not the One.
4. Neo wakes up in his pod, and realises he's back where he began and the films were broadcast into his head to inspire him to escape. The third film ends on a cliffhanger of him deciding whether to or not....

Anyway, the Wachowski's didn't come up with anything. Everything worked out just how it would in a typical Joel Silver film, explosions and car chases.

 

[matrix_ghost]

The actors who play the Twins actually said in a Total Film interview, "We BOTH fight Neo."

You think the mag. didn't misinterpret their words ?
It could be that Neil and Adrien Rayment did in fact tell the journalist this and it was true. That there was a fight but due to budgetary reason is was scrapped. Or maybe that they were just playing with the journalist.
OR that Total film just got some info and added their own words which they got from the web rumors.



Heck I'll quote the empire issue .

Issue 158 , aug 2002 :
Of this continuing story, Silver offers only tantalising details:
- It is not two movies - "It is one enormous movie that's being cut in half." (The action apparently takes place over one 24-hour period.)
- The aforementioned is a "mind-boggling" car chase that takes place within the rules of the Matrix.
- Much of Reloaded is set in the Matrix and concerns itself with Neo coming to terms with "superhero" powers and the ability to "perceive" the mulitple levles and different "programs" of the Matrix.
- Multiple Neos and Agent Smiths will fight. (Look out for a table-top confrontation in a Chinese restaurant and a fight in a mirrored room.)
- The returning principals are joined by Monica Bellucci, who plays an evil Matrix temptress, as well as Nona Gaye (who replaced the late Aaliyah) and Jada Pinkett Smith who play warriors in the PVC-clad Trinity mould.
- Both movies, but mainly Revolutions, will visit "scorced Earth," where "biomechanical machines" terrorise Zion.
All this, and the Wachowskis are not scheduled to start the most ambitious action scene for another couple of weeks. "That," Silver smiles, "is a 14-minute sequence that is the most complicated sequence ever put on film." Indeed, you can forget the widely-copied 'bullet-time' - Silver promises effects shots so complex and expensive that "they will never be attempted again." (The combined budget of the two films is rumoured to be $300 million.) As Silver says of the special effects, "I really think the bar has been raised so high, that there is no bar."
So as long as there's still no spoon...

They got that multiple neos and smiths fight all wrong. Mirrored room fight ?
Wtf ? To be honest i think many magazines got their info from the web and just printed it. Sure Silver gave them some details but alot of things were in fact misinterpreted.
Fire behaving like water , water behaving like gas in Revolutions.
There is just one shot of each. Okay some more shots.
The fire behaving like water is the shot in reloaded where neo escapes that flaming wave.

The water acting like gas are those shockwaves in the superbrawl.




And btw , you're totally right . These movies ( not just M1) are incredibly influential in their techniques used for filming , for promotion , even for their VFX. It's that people never realise that.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

You think the mag. didn't misinterpret their words ?

It was a straight quote. It was from an issue in early 2003. The quote is pretty much, "One of us fights Trinity, the other fights Morpheus, then we both fight Neo."

It seems logical that's what they're there for. It's a dramatic letdown that Neo doesn't fight them.

 

[Darthphere]

Yes it is.

Yes it was.

 

[matrix_ghost]

It was a straight quote. It was from an issue in early 2003. The quote is pretty much, "One of us fights Trinity, the other fights Morpheus, then we both fight Neo."

It seems logical that's what they're there for. It's a dramatic letdown that Neo doesn't fight them.

Still don't believe it to be honest.
I'll believe it when they'll eventually release Art Of Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions.

And that'll happen when i'm playing with my grandkids

If it were true that they would fight neo , to be honest the only scene in Revolutions i could see then fighting neo would be when the Merovingian orders them to capture neo back.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Nope , nope it wasn't In fact it was very very lame :P

How about everyone who likes the trilogy post what they didn't like in Reloaded and Revolutions and also explain why they didn't like it or how they would've improved on it. You can also use scenes which you felt were good , but also could've been improved on.

I'll start off .

1 scenes in Zion :
Now before you think i hate Zion , hear me out. I don't hate or nor don't i like it. In fact i like it alot. However there are moments in Zion which i don't like and it puts me towards a point.
As i stated before i don't like the Rave at all. I understand the meaning of it which is of course , mankind's celebration , showing that in spite of a looming war we are still human , that unlike machines who always crave for feelings we are truly able to feel those things ( neo banging trinity , the grinding of bodies in rave ) , the fact that neo will always care for trinity ( instead of them celebrating in unison with the zionites , they go off and have sex ).
But i just don't see it working. I would've liked to see more scenes with the zionoties preparing to fight . More scenes with councillor hammann or for that matter Cornel West talking to neo and morpheus.
I mean one thing that Reloaded immediatly shows us is that this isn't M1. Stop drawing conclusions or thinking that it's the same...cause it's not.
Reloaded shows us that morpheus isn''t as all knowing , that his believes are questioned.
And of course , more scenes featuring the zionities with their dependance on neo and neo showing again and again that he will always go for trinity. IMO it wou'ld've made that much more of an impact.



2 Burly Brawl
I dunno if any of you know how the burly brawl originally was going to be.
For those who don't know anything about it :
It was going to be a far more threatening thing for neo. One of the main criticisms of the burly brawl is that neo is god and that he could've just flown away easily. However many people who come up with such arguments , also fail to realise that neo is always trying to overcome a situation. Even if he doesn't understand it. With the first fight in Reloaded we see that the agents attack neo and after a few moves he begins to see that the agents are upgrades. Still trying to overcome the situation , he kicks their butts. In Reloaded he does the same thing , trying to realise just why the smiths are their and trying to overcome the situation. That is why he fights them and as more smiths arrive , he knows that physically he can't win....in that moment. That's why he escapes.
Now going back to the burly brawl as it was originally conceived , smith was a far more threatening presence. He goes all out and begins to take over everyone in the vicinity. First he tries to take over neo and seeing that he can't do that , he takes over everyone. Check out how the wachowskis wrote that scene :


I mean that scene just sounds soo cool reading that. And the fact that it was storyboarded ( see the matrix dvd's for that) shows that they were in fact planning to shoot the sequence.
Why they changed it , i dunno. Mebbe for budgetary reasons.

3 Deleted Stuff
See burly brawl description above. Alot of scenes in Reloaded and Revolutions were ditched because of Budgetary reasons.
In Revolutions there was going to be a shot of neo flyin thru the megacity whoch also got removed. Pre-VIZ alone would've costed almost 1 million dollars . Animation would've probably costs millions more.

This sequence was also drawn.
Also the freeway chase was changed abit in the end , although i'm not sure how much. I knew that Morpheus and Trinity would be surrounded in the end and they would then escape with in the end neo saving the day in bullet time. I just don't know how. Need to do some digging up.
THe opening scene was also changed quite drastically in Reloaded. It had the scene with the motorcycle landing and exploding. Trinity fought , if i remember correctly , just one person and then we'd see a frightened trinity as she walks and you'd constantly go in and out of the matrix code until that show came of her falling out of the building and firing in bullet time.
IMO alot of those removed scenes would've made Reloaded and Revolutions better.


That's all for now. There are more stuff but i'll post them later

Thanks for posting all that info, bud. I think the main problem with the Burly Brawl is that it became purely a technical excercise in just how elaborate such a scene could be. And it is extremely impressive from that point of view - but it's just not exciting enough.

 

[MARVELous M]

The sequels just don't have the same feeling as the original. They try to, but they try to hard and take things way over the top. The films are still enjoyable to watch, but not half as much as the original. That's all.

Favorite part of the sequels was the huge final fight in Revolutions. It was badass.

I totally agree with that

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Still don't believe it to be honest.
I'll believe it when they'll eventually release Art Of Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions.

And that'll happen when i'm playing with my grandkids

If it were true that they would fight neo , to be honest the only scene in Revolutions i could see then fighting neo would be when the Merovingian orders them to capture neo back.

You don't believe me or you don't believe the Rayments?

 

[xwolverine2]

the Wachowski's didn't come up with anything.

............

you must have only watched the credits

 

[matrix_ghost]

Thanks for posting all that info, bud. I think the main problem with the Burly Brawl is that it became purely a technical excercise in just how elaborate such a scene could be. And it is extremely impressive from that point of view - but it's just not exciting enough.

Agreed. Alot of the blame in the "failure" of Reloaded and Revolutions really lies of Joel Silver and to a less extent but of equal "importance " John Gaeta.
Silver made comments such as "there is no bar"and making VFX that take to long to create and are so complexy , they'll never be attempted again.

NEWSFLASH : That is the whole reason why MOVIES are always trying to top the previous flicks. Always trying to be better. What is new today isn't new tomorrow

Gaeta focused alot on technicalities , going so far to claim the photorealism of the smith and neo doubles. And he is right....to a certain extent. The doubles do look very very real , even better then most CG doubles these days ( *cough *cough* Superman and Doc Ock).I thin alot of the magic there was lost. Most people initially were shocked at just how they got the bullet time moves so smooth and right when the superbowl trailer came out. Alot of people thought that it was in fact a real keanu doing all those moves in the burly brawl.
I still would've preferred the burly brawl as written in the script . Introducing the ideas of the pole is all cool and great , but ultimately it's about establishing smith as a threat towards neo. And that was missing in the burly brawl.

 

[matrix_ghost]

............

you must have only watched the credits

I agree :confused.
The wachowskis didn't come up with anything ? What the hell ??!!??

They came up with everything. They were the ones who wrote the script , they were the ones who supervised the storyboards , they were the ones who fought for the R rating , they supervised the destruction mayhem.
How the heck didn't they come up with anything
Edit :

I'll also respond to what you typed earlier kevin.
There were alot of ideas that many of us ( including myself) wanted to see in the matrix reloaded and revolutions. But those ideas didn't come and so alot of us ( not me ) were not satisfied.
But here lies the question ? Do you then say the movies sucked just because you're ( not you specifically , but everyone ) vision didn't come true ?
Aren't movies basically the vision of directors and the audience are really just spectators judging what is presented on screen.

With Reloaded and definatelt Revoltuions , people are judging the movies so harshly because they had something else in their heads . And they so wanted those things to happen.

I hated the Matrix wihin a Matrix ( MWAM ) theories. Or the multiple matrixes. Both from an artistic and financial standpoint those are wrong ideas IMO. In both cases you'd deceive the audience .

 

[Flexo]

What was the deal with the Oracle?

I understand that the actress died, but why bother pointing out the new actress by dancing around how/why her appearence changed?

 

[Flexo]

I agree :confused.
The wachowskis didn't come up with anything ? What the hell ??!!??

They came up with everything. They were the ones who wrote the script , they were the ones who supervised the storyboards , they were the ones who fought for the R rating , they supervised the destruction mayhem.
How the heck didn't they come up with anything

I believe he's referring to the woman that sued them for stealing her ideas. (The same woman also sued Cameron for the Terminator films.)

 

[MARVELous M]

What if any, was the significance of the Oracle offering candy to Neo on numerous occasions? I've always thought about that.

 

[MARVELous M]

What was the deal with the Oracle?

I understand that the actress died, but why bother pointing out the new actress by dancing around how/why her appearence changed?

Yeah I thought the excuse the Wachowski bros came up with to explain why the Oracle's appearance changed was weak.

 

[Darthphere]

What was the deal with the Oracle?

I understand that the actress died, but why bother pointing out the new actress by dancing around how/why her appearence changed?

Neo upgraded to XP.

 

[Majik1387]

^What was their excuse about Oracle's changed appearance?

 

[matrix_ghost]

The whole Gloria Stewart thing.That turned out to be a hoax.
Dave Poland had posted in on his website just what the big deal was
http://davidpoland.typepad.com/thehotblog/2004/12/matrix_hoax.html
http://davidpoland.typepad.com/thehotblog/2004/12/more_on_termina.html